Religion Islam: Conceptions and misconceptions

[eemaan]

Here you go Bossel..mountains... I don't know if the pictures will show so i'll give the link as well...

http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_p1_04.php#5

THE FUNCTION OF MOUNTAINS

The Qur'an draws attention to a very important geological function of mountains:

We placed firmly embedded mountains on the earth, so it would not move under them… (Qur'an, 21:31)

The verse states that mountains perform the function of preventing shocks in the Earth. This fact was not known by anyone at the time the Qur'an was revealed. It was, in fact, brought to light only recently, as a result of the findings of modern geological research.

Formerly, it was thought that mountains were merely protrusions rising above the surface of the Earth. However, scientists realised that this was not actually the case, and that those parts known as the mountain root extended down as far as 10-15 times their own height. With these features, mountains play a similar role to a nail or peg firmly holding down a tent. For example, Mount Everest, the summit of which stands approximately 9 km above the surface of the Earth, has a root deeper than 125 km.24


Mountains have roots deep under the surface of the ground. (Press and Siever, Earth, 413.)
Schematic section. Mountains, like pegs, have deep roots embedded in the ground. (Andre Cailleux and J. Moody Stuart, Anatomy of the Earth (McGraw-Hill Companies: 1968), 220.)

Another illustration shows how mountains are peg-like in shape, due to their deep roots. (Edward J. Tarbuck and Frederick K. Lutgens, Earth Science (USA: Macmillan USA: 1993), 158.)

 

[bossel]

http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_p1_04.php#5

Oh please... This site is just crap, please come up with something scientific to prove your point. Harunblabla uses every word & text only as a propaganda tool, no matter if it fits or not.

Example: -on the one hand
"Allah "made the mountains firm." (Qur'an, 79:32) The word "arsaha" in this verse means "was made rooted, was fixed, was nailed to the earth.""
&
"[He] cast firmly embedded mountains on the earth so that it would not move under you?c (Qur'an, 31:10)"
as proof that mountains fixate Earth.
- on the other hand
"You see the mountains you reckoned to be solid going past like clouds. (Qur'an, 27:88)"
as proof that the Koran already mentioned continental drift.

What now? Fixated or moving?

The mentioned isostasy is not a state of fixation, but of a (temporary) equilibrium. The highest mountain range in the world - the Himalayas - is not in a state of isostatic equilibrium, for example. How does that fit the Koran?

 

[No-name]

I think the mountain-root theory was devisd in the 1930's and called the batholiths... It fell out of favor as plate techtonic theory gained wider acceptance in the second half of the 20th century.

 

[Mycernius]

This is my favourite mistakes on this website:

THE EARTH'S GEOID SHAPE

After that He smoothed out the earth. (Qur'an, 79:30)

In the above verse, the word "daha" is used in the original Arabic. It, translated as "smoothed out," comes from the word "dahv," meaning "to spread." Although the word "dahv" also means to cover or to set out, the meaning of the verb is more than just a prosaic setting out, since it describes setting out in a circle.

The concept of roundness is also present in other words derived from "dahv." For example, the word "dahv" also refers to children dropping a ball into a hole in the ground, games involving throwing stones into holes and games played with walnuts. Words derived from that root are also used for an ostrich making a nest, cleaning stones from where it is about to lie down, the place where it lays its eggs and the egg itself.

Indeed, the Earth is round, in a manner reminiscent of an egg. The slightly flattened spherical shape of the Earth is known as geoid. From that point of view, the use of the word "daha" contains important information about the shape that Allah has given to the Earth. For hundreds of years, people imagined the Earth to be completely flat and only learned the truth thanks to technology. Yet, this fact was revealed in the Qur'an fourteen centuries ago.

To spread something out is to flatten it. He is saying that the word "Dahv" could me this, this and this and proves I am right. No, it proves nothing. The last two sentences are so amazingly wrong it strikes me that this man has never read a proper sceintific or historical document in his life. The shape of theearth was known to the greeks 300 years before Christ was born, 800 before Muhammad. They had even worked out its circumferance within a few hundred miles, without modern technology. Even early Christains knew that the earth was round. The flat earth garbage starts with a man called Lactantius (245 - 325), who rejected greek writtings and was considered a heretic by the early church. Others followed, but the idea was rejected. It was during the renaissence when it was reported, falsely, that many believed the earth to be flat. Unfortunately it stuck and it didn't help with the 19th centuries habit of making out everyone before them were idiots.

 

[Shaolin]

This is my favourite mistakes on this website:
To spread something out is to flatten it. He is saying that the word "Dahv" could me this, this and this and proves I am right. No, it proves nothing. The last two sentences are so amazingly wrong it strikes me that this man has never read a proper sceintific or historical document in his life. The shape of theearth was known to the greeks 300 years before Christ was born, 800 before Muhammad. They had even worked out its circumferance within a few hundred miles, without modern technology. Even early Christains knew that the earth was round. The flat earth garbage starts with a man called Lactantius (245 - 325), who rejected greek writtings and was considered a heretic by the early church. Others followed, but the idea was rejected. It was during the renaissence when it was reported, falsely, that many believed the earth to be flat. Unfortunately it stuck and it didn't help with the 19th centuries habit of making out everyone before them were idiots.

Hello Mycernius,

These are typical misconceptions. Firstly you MUST take into note that this is a translation, therefore it has errors.
When spread out is used it means that you can walk freely on the earth, for example, a field - The field is 'spread out'. People have this misconception that you can spread out only on flat surface, you can very well spread out on spherical objects. A football is a perfect example of this.

Secondly, the greeks also believed that the Earth was the centre of the universe.

Third, christians believed the Earth was ROUND. Like that of a coin, not spherical. So it was flat, but round. This is apparent through quite afew verses in the bible.

 

[Shaolin]

Well, that's understandable. Probably one of the more prevalent reasons to believe in some supernatural entity.
Oooh, er..., now this is not really understandable...
...considering the fact that this website is not excellent, but crappy. You'll find a lot of Christian websites which claim the same scienticity (if that is a word) for the Bible, & which are made in a more refined way (though still crappy).
Maybe he wasn't that illiterate? Perhaps he relied heavily on Greek, Egyptian, Phoenician, Babylonian a.s.o. discoveries which were made centuries if not millennia before?
Er..., what makes you so sure he did know? Not that it isn't possible, since Alkmaion around 450 BC & Herophilus around 300 BC already described some embryonic biology, but the Suras provided by this excellent website don't prove anything. They offer very far-fetched explanations why these suras are supposed to mean what they allege that they do.
To make the statement "It is He, Who has created for you (the sense of) hearing (ears), sight (eyes), and hearts (understanding). Little thanks you give." into a biological description of embryonic development is just crap.
Mountains hold the tectonic plates together? Since when?
Did he? Well, at least that would explain some of his ideas, too much sun, not enough water.
Someone who is prepared to kill to forward his belief is not someone I'd call noble.
Most influential doesn't equal most right.
Brought to you by men, interpreted for you by men. Even if they were truly rules by some god, how would you know which interpretation is right?

Hello Bossel,
I'b like to touch on afew points here.

Brought to you by men, interpreted for you by men. Even if they were truly rules by some god, how would you know which interpretation is right?

The Quran was sent for ALL of mankind, as a guidence. The fact that there are different interpretations of Qur'an ISNT a weakness but actually shows that the Qur'an has completed its task.
Everyone has a different capacity (Different levels of understanding). The Quran would have to reach out to all of these people, and the way it has been worded does exactly that.

Maybe he wasn't that illiterate? Perhaps he relied heavily on Greek, Egyptian, Phoenician, Babylonian a.s.o. discoveries which were made centuries if not millennia before?

This is well established FACT that he was illiterate. This isn't only agreed by amongst muslims, but even orientalists. To say otherwise, you would have to bring proof.
He was given the title Al-Ameen (The honest One) why would he want to all of a sudden make probably the biggest lie ever? And how could he fool 1.5 billion people in todays era? Note that he was the ONLY one before and after to named the Al-Ameen. He was so honest and trustworthy that his own enemies would give him there possessions to lookafter in there absence. This is the eqivelant of Bush and BinLaden. And this is only the tip of the ice berg.

Mountains hold the tectonic plates together? Since when?

Mountain ranges are formed when two plates collide. Also known as the Continental Crush
It is a fact that mountains do act like pegs and prevent the earth from shaking. One reason being the roots of the mountains being very deep as demonstrated in the .gif image.

Someone who is prepared to kill to forward his belief is not someone I'd call noble.

HE was prepared to give his life to DEFEND the belief. Just like how the west defends its idealogies.
.

 

[Shaolin]

Nice site, but a lot of what I (quickly) read through can be found in myth and other religions. The splitting of heaven and earth is in Shinto and Chinese mythology, so are they correct? Remember Islam has drawn its beliefs from pre-islamic myth. Allah is a name given to one of the pre-islamic creator Gods. He was responsible for water and earth. When Muhammad wrote the Quran he identified Allah with the Judeo-christian god , as the bible mentions that God created the earth and water and from that created everything else. It seems someone has read throught he Quran and made passages fit into current scientific theory.
I have mentioned elsewhere that I do not believe that a sucessful merchant would be illiterate. He wasn't a peasant, he was what we would probably call from a middle class family. He was probably fairly well educated, how else could he take from three beliefs and combine them together? Propaganda has a lot to do with promoting a new religion and making sure it does not dissappear.

Hello Mycernius,
Islam has drawn its beliefs from 'pre-Islamic myths'? Muhammed wrote the Quran? Amusing. Another SET of misconceptions. You either truthfully are ignorant about these issues, or your here just to spread decit.
Anyway, this is EXACTLY was the people at the time of Muhammed (saaws) said. IF you think that Muhammed wrote the Qur'an then write something like it (in arabic). This is a direct challenge from the Quran. The people the time of the prophet didnt even try because they knew they couldn't do it.
And no-one since has.
The style the Quran has been revealed in is like none other. It was totally new to the arabs of that time. Alot of the people who accepted Islam back then, didnt accept it because of the message but because of this unheard style of poetry.
Had the companions/followers of Muhammed (saaws) found out he was lying, they would have killed him straight away. How could an illiterate maintain this consistancy over a period of 22 years? He didnt blunder once. Had he, he would of been finished.

It seems someone has read throught he Quran and made passages fit into current scientific theory.

Impossible. Why?
1. Millions of muslims have memorised it to heart. Any change in the Quran would be detected.
2. WE still have the ORIGINAL Quran with us, one in a museum in Eygpt and one a museum in Istanbul, and they have been carbon dated back to the time of the prophet.
3. Had ONE word been changed in the Quran inconsistances and errors would be apparent all over the Quran, and Quranic concepts would topple over one another. Thats how accurately the Quran has been worded.
These are just some reasons, there are ofcourse alot more.

I have mentioned elsewhere that I do not believe that a sucessful merchant would be illiterate. He wasn't a peasant, he was what we would probably call from a middle class family. He was probably fairly well educated, how else could he take from three beliefs and combine them together? Propaganda has a lot to do with promoting a new religion and making sure it does not dissappear.

Pure ignorance. Firstly, he was better off before he started the mission of Islam. Tell me, what would he gain from starting a new religion? Would it be worth the amount of suffering and pain he went through? He was cursed, stoned, deprived of food, water, shelter etc.. for preaching Islam. Don;t you think that if he did it for the sake of it he would of stopped at the first instance of difficulty?
And he was illterate. He didnt know how to read or write. It was common in those times to be illiterate, be it a merchant or a non merchant. This is cystal clear amongst muslims and orientalists.

 

[Shaolin]

Nope, you didn't get my point: There are obviously a lot of different forms of Islam & interpretations of the Koran. Hence Islam today is not the same as it was & is not even the same everywhere nowadays.
Yep, faith is obviously pointless. But apart from that, people always pick what they like. They don't even need to do so in case of holy books, because there is usually a whole variety of interpretations.
Islam is made up of Muslims. Without Muslims no Islam.
What is absolute truth & how do you recognise it? Why do you recognise it & >5 billion others don't?

Hello Bossel,
There are different 'Interpretations of the Quran'. This was the purpose of the Quran. Since it was revealed to mankind it cannot address all on the same level because everyone have a different level/capacity. So Allah has worded in such a way that it addresses ALL capacities/levels of understandings.
This is why the prophet (saaws) didnt interprete the whole Qur'an, he left it to our capacities.
.

 

[Shaolin]

As I understood Islamic teachings a woman must dress modestly, with her hair covered, not covered head to toe in a burqa. This has just been blown out of proportion by the fundamentalists, who , in reality, just see what they want to see in the Quran to keep their power.
Historically the complete covering of the body in a hot country makes sense. It protects the body from the sun. The benefits of this have made their way into holy writtings and its suddenly becomes law. Hence, when these women move to a colder country, where the sun is not so strong, they will start to suffer health problems. The problems is that the religious law does not take that into consideration because it has become tradition and traditions are hard to break.

Hello,

This is incorrect.
Firstly a fundamentalist is a person who adheres to the fundamentals of a particular subject. Just like a doctor MUST be a fundamentalist in the field of medicine in order to be a good doctor. A muslim must be a fundamentalist in Islam to be a good muslim.
The minimum requirements for a woman is that she covers from head to toe, except her hands and face. This is stated in the Qur'an and in authenic hadith. If she wishes to cover his face, she can but its not mandatory.

Anyway, the women of those times are role models for todays muslim women, so muslim women should be imitating them because they were the best of examples.

I dont understand why westerners are placing so much emphasis on this. If you believe in freedom of speech then you should respect these womens decisions. These women choose to wear the Jilbab/Hijab/Niqab, so there shoudnt really be any problem here.
.

 

[Shaolin]

Thanks for your reply Eeeman. I think I get you, but I also think I can easily argue another way on several points Please forgive me if I seem in any way disrespectful - I don't mean to be - just honest :gomen:
It seems that you are saying that because men are less able to control their sexual urges, women must make themselves less sexually attractive to protect themselves from rape.

Hello Tsu,

Allah has placed a 'fitnah' (Temptation) in man's heart for women. Firstly, men are less able to control there desires. I think we can agree on that. Why else do you think its always men raping women?
IF you saw two women on the street, one dressed in very fitted/revealing clothing and all tarted up, and the other covered up, which one do you think is MORE likely to be howled at? To be approached by men? To be 'eyed up'? and so on.

2) If the fault is with men then the responsibility lies more with men, IMO. Are we supposed to believe that men are such weak creatures that they can't control themselves? I don't believe that. Most men know that rape is wrong, and education should make sure of it. Severe penalties for those who don't learn should act as a deterrent for potential rapists.

In america a woman is raped every 2 minutes according to the US dept. of Justice. Most men know its wrong, but they still do it. Its better to tackle the root rather than look for a cure.

3) Does a veil really make a woman less sexually attractive? I doubt it. Look at the lady on this wiki article. I think a lot of men would find her very attractive, veil or no.

One of the criterias of the hijab is that it is not colorful, or does not attract attention. I think you mean more 'beautiful'. Dont you agree she would be more sexually attractive if she was wearing 'sexy' clothing? Rather than the Jilbab?

4) Since the Quran (allegedly) considers rape a forgivable crime, why is it considered so important that the image a Muslim woman presents to the world at all times be dictated by it? Why is it necessary to go to such lengths as to make incorrect dress a crime in some countries?
I'm sure there are other arguments too. The thing about the veil that troubles me the most is that in my experience, Muslim men are not usually instantly recognisable as such, whereas the majority of Muslim women I meet are obviously Muslim. This seems like a great inequality to me, and the reason you give just isn't compelling enough to account for it, IMO.
Another small point: people are asked to remove headgear under certain circumstances, to ensure they are easily identifiable. For example, a motorcyclist must remove his crash helmet before entering a bank. Should this rule extend to the burqa or niqab? If not, could the motorcyclist claim discrimination?

IF she chooses to wear the hijab then why should it be a problem? If women don't want to display themselves then why should the west have a problem? Shouldnt they support them since they believe in freedom? Hypocrisy. When a woman decides to cover up she is considered oppressed whereas when she wants to reveal her clevage, she is considered liberated.
I agree with you, alot of men don't look the part. But you have to ask them why they don't want to adhere to these aspects of Islam. Remember, women choose to wear these types of clothing, and same with men. If you see more women looking the part than men, what does that show you? That more women are commited to the religion.

As for rape, it is forgivable IF the person as hand repents sincerely and never intends to do it again.
.

 

[Shaolin]

Islam is still the same today? Are you saying that Mohammed already introduced the separation in Sunni, Shia, Alavites a.s.o.?
Always worn the Hijab? I've seen many a Muslima who didn't.
Nature changes always somewhere.

Hello Bossel,
Islam is still the same. The sunni and shia disputes are purely political and I wish they would banish these names and unite
Secondly, muslim women wear hijab. That is perfectly accurate. Remember, your not automatically muslim if your born in a muslim family, you have to earn the title.

 

[Shaolin]

Ok, so answer it now: Do you agree that was a possible scenario or not? Certainly if their culture prepared the girls for it...
Nice, so maybe we can get eemaan to agree that Muhammed didn't rape Aisha. My problem is much more with the absurd justification eemaan gave to this fact (and that he even tried to justify it) than whether this is indeed factual or not. I really have to question the sanity of anybody who believes a pedophile could have been the "greatest person to ever exist".
I don't think it was the norm either; it must have been a pretty ******-up thing to do even back then.
I know, still... relative!=always right. And before you say it, I don't think right and wrong are meaningless concepts in moralism, but let's not go too off-topic.
Oh sorry, my mistake, I meant "??"(or however you want to write "implies") instead of "=".
And eemaan, you still haven't answered this question:

Hello Kumo,

Rape? According to who? You? Were you there? Do you know what happened? What sources do you have apart from Islamic ones, or ones derived from Islamic sources?

First, it was the costum then, for example, the Prophet (saaws) also married Safiyyah, the daughter of the Jewish king - she was 13 and already a DIVORCEE. This means as a jewess, she had been married and divorced before 13. So Jews did it too.
Also, marriage didn't mean SEXUAL intercourse at all. It just meant taking her in and getting her accustomed to the husbands ways, it was actually an act of raising her according to a mans habbits and ways. Their is nothing sexual implied at all.
It is still done today in parts of Syria and Egypt.

Finally, there was a reason in Ayshas case specifically. 50% of the hadiths about the prophet (Saaws) are from Aisha. We would have not known ANYTHING about his ways at home without her.

For someone to tell us how he acted at home, a young girl who could record everything and would not be busy with raising children was needed. This is exactly what happened.

 

[Shaolin]

Just a quick defence for Islam and the killing of non-believers. Remember that the Quran took its ideas from Jewish, Christian and pre-Islamic myths. (Before you start seeing red Eemaan, I will point out that I an also an atheist and do not believe in a book protected by God. Jews and Christians also believe this, so who is right?) As a fairly new religious set of beliefs led by Mohammad he sets out some guidelines to protect it from destruction from neighbouring tribes, he was at war at the time (I will have to check some of my history here, as it is a little rusty). Taking note from the previous religions that highly influenced Islam, he would have just incorporated the violence you can easily find in the Bible. Isn't sodomy an affront to God, punishable by death? "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", a quote not far from the 10 Commandments that "Thou shalt not kill". I'm sure a look through the Bible and Torah will find just as many violent passages. The poster wasn't Jarvis?:?

Hello Mycernius,
The Torah and Gospel were REVEALED by the same God. The fact that some of the passages are similar in the Quran doesnt show forging BUT consistancy IN the word of God.
I've shown you that the Prophet (saaws) didnt write the Quran himself. IF you disagree, then come to this forum (ummah.com/forum), goto the Comparative Religion forum and start a thread there regarding this topic. Then we will see who's right and who's wrong.
Islam doesnt advocate killing non-believers. Muslims are NOT aggressors.

 

[Shaolin]

This is quoted from another forum. It is quite long.
This is quoted from another forum. It is quite long.

Quote:Originally Posted by ringer
The quran is littered with verses advocating hatred and killing, practically every chapter refers to slaughter and torture of non-believers. Here are a few samples, there are scores more. The muslim terrorist is following mohammed, allah, islam and the quran to the letter.

Quote:qur?an 2:193 ?Fight them until there is no more fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers.

Force Everyone into submission to islam

Quote:qur?an 2:246 ?He said: ?Would you refrain from fighting if fighting were prescribed for you?? They said: ?How could we refuse to fight in allah?s cause???

Killing is prescribed by allah

Quote:qur?an 3:154 ?Say: ?Even if you had remained in your houses, those ordained to be slaughtered would have gone forth to the places where they were to slain.?

You cannot escape your "kill and be killed" duty to allah, he has ordained that certain ones will be slaughtered

Quote:qur?an 4:15 ?If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death (by starvation) claims them.

This bit of hate helps to understand the muslim attitude to womens rights. If they upset you lock them in the house and starve them to death.

Quote:qur?an 4:74 ?Let those who fight in allah?s cause sell this world?s life for the hereafter. To him who fights in allah?s cause, whether he is slain or victorious, We shall give him a reward.?

More of the same kill and be killed in allah's cause and get the little boys and virgins in the gardens of bliss.

Quote:qur?an 4:75 ?What reason have you that you should not fight in allah?s cause??

You have no reason not to kill and be killed etc.

Quote:qur?an 4:76 ?Those who believe fight in the cause of allah.?

All muslims are believers, therefore all muslims are expected to slay in the cause of allah

Quote:qur?an 4:77 ?Lord, why have You ordained fighting for us, why have You made war compulsory??

Killing and war were ordained and made compulsory

Quote:qur?an 4:84 ?Then fight (mohammad) in allah?s cause. Incite the believers to fight with you.?


Kill in allah's cause, incite the muslim with the promise of the gardens of bliss

Quote:qur?an 4:95 ?Not equal are believers who sit home and receive no hurt and those who fight in allah?s cause with their wealth and lives. alah has granted a grade higher to those who fight with their possessions and bodies to those who sit home. Those who fight He has distinguished with a special reward.?

The killers are a grade higher than other muslims in allah's sight, they get a special reward.

Quote:qur?an 5:41 ?Whomever allah wants to deceive you cannot help. allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them."

Certain people have been ordained by allah for torture by muslims

Quote:qur?an 7:3 ?Little do you remember my warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them.?

Terrorism has always been the modus-operandi of muslims

Quote:qur?an 8:7 ?allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ?Wipe the infidels out to the last.??

Kill all unbelievers

Quote:qur?an 8:12 ?Your lord inspired the angels with the message: ?i am with you. Give firmness to the believers. i will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.?

More of the torture and terrorise non-muslins

Quote:qur?an 8:39 ?Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to allah.?

Kill untill everyone is subject to the islamic state

Quote:qur?an 8:57 ?If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.

Terrorise and use the most heinous methods possible against unbelievers

Quote:qur?an 8:67 ?It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughtered in the land.?

Slaughtering people is preferable to taking prisoners

Quote:qur?an 9:5 ?When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, beleaguer them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

More kill and torture

Quote:qur?an 9:19 ?Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the mosque, equal to those who fight in the cause of allah? They are not comparable in the sight of allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in allah?s cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of allah.?

Again allah regards killers and torturers as the best muslims

Quote:qur?an 9:38 ?believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in allah?s cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? Unless you go forth, he will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.?

The muslim who does not want to kill will be punished by allah

Quote:qur?an 9:111 ?allah has purchased the believers, their lives and their goods. For them (in return) is the garden (of paradise). They fight in alah?s cause, and they slay and are slain; they kill and are killed.?

More murdering is the duty of muslims

Quote:qur?an 9:112 ?The believers fight in allah?s cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.?

Same again more killing

Quote:qur?an 9:123 ?Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.?

And again kill, kill, kill.

Quote:qur?an 24:34 ?Force not your slave-girls to whoredom (prostitution) if they desire chastity, that you may seek enjoyment of this life. But if anyone forces them, then after such compulsion, allah is oft-forgiving.?

This one's a beauty, if you want to rape someone, allah is forgiving.

Quote:qur?an 24:6 ?And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by allah that he is the one speaking the truth.?

Again women are nothing, men's testimony is 4 times higher than a womans.

Quote:qur?an 33:26 ?allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And he made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. he gave you a country you had not traversed before.?

Terrorism by muslims against the Jews began

Quote:qur?an 47:4 ?When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting jihad in allah?s cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by allah to continue carrying out jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to islam.

More hate, kill, torture, submit to islam doctrine

Quote:qur?an 48:16 ?Say (mohammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: ?You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture.?

More of, if you don't kill, kill, kill allah will punish you

Quote:qur?an 61:2 ?O muslims, why say one thing and do another? Grievously odious and hateful is it in the sight of allah that you say that which you do not. Truly allah loves those who fight in his cause in a battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.?

Again allah loves the murdering muslim

Quote:qur?an 61:4 ?Surely allah loves those who fight in his cause.?


And again

Quote:qur?an 86:13 ?Lo this (qur?an) is a conclusive word; it is not a thing for amusement. It is no pleasantry. And it is no joke.?


You better believe it brother.

Hello Revenant,

These verses have been TOTALLY blow out of proportion. The author has taken them out of context. Let me give you an example, say the president of America is encouraging his army and telling them to kill the eneny. Hes giving them a form of encouragement. Now IF 10 years later I turn around and start saying that the pres. of USA said kill all the enemies, Im making him look like a butcher. Im taking it out of context.

Now since the post is very long I'll only touch on, and clarify one verse. But if you want all of them clarified then bring them to ummah.com/forum, goto the Comparative religion forum and start a thread there.

Lets take the following verse for example:

Quote:qur?an 9:5 ?When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, beleaguer them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

The verse was revealed on the battlefield. Allah was encouraging the believers to fight againest the disbelievers. This is exactly what the west do when they enter war. They kill the enemy.

But if read the next verse, it says

009:006 - If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

It says BUT if they seek asylum, grant it to them. It goes as far as saying escort them to a place of security.

In Islam, if the enemy wants peace, then he gets peace. Peace has a higher preference in Islam than war, but if the muslims fear being attacked or under danger then they are told to defend themselves. Whats wrong with that?

After reading the above explanation I hope you see how the author of those verses misled the reader.
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[Shaolin]

This describes a woman's responsibility to keep her sexuality within the confines of marriage. What corresponding responsibility does a man have?

Exactly the same. A man must also maintain his chasity tell marriage.

 

[Shaolin]

Hello All,

If you want to seriously discuss Islam, or wish to learn more about Islam then please don't hesitate to join ummah.com/forum. The Comparative Religion section is the best for debates.

But thats all from me for now. Hope I've clarified some of the misconceptions regarding Islam.

Peace
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[bossel]

When spread out is used it means that you can walk freely on the earth, for example, a field - The field is 'spread out'.

Ah, but in the original it is said to be "smoothed out", not "spread out". All this blabber about spread, round & egg-shaped was extrapolation by the author.

Third, christians believed the Earth was ROUND. Like that of a coin, not spherical.

Did they? & how prevalent was that view? Anyway, the argument is that the Earth as a globe was an advanced insight of the Koran, which it wasn't. It was nothing new at the time.

The Quran was sent for ALL of mankind, as a guidence. The fact that there are different interpretations of Qur'an ISNT a weakness but actually shows that the Qur'an has completed its task.

Sorry, but 1.5 or 2 billion believers is not "ALL" of mankind.

This is well established FACT that he was illiterate.

Not a fact, but a dogma. There is a difference.

And how could he fool 1.5 billion people in todays era?

Going for numbers? There are 4.8 b people who don't believe. How could they be wrong? There are 2 b Christians. How could they be fooled?

It is a fact that mountains do act like pegs and prevent the earth from shaking.

Oh yeah? I'm living in the low lands, virtually no earthquakes. A few hundred miles further there is a small mountain range where the Earth is shaking much more often.

HE was prepared to give his life to DEFEND the belief. Just like how the west defends its idealogies.

Ah yes. All those conquests in the name of defence. What a peaceful man.

WE still have the ORIGINAL Quran with us, one in a museum in Eygpt and one a museum in Istanbul, and they have been carbon dated back to the time of the prophet.

Nope. The oldest "complete" texts we have, in Istanbul & Tashkent, are from the 9th century. From older texts we only have fragments & these fragments show that there were alterations & mistaken transcriptions.

Quranic concepts would topple over one another. Thats how accurately the Quran has been worded.

There is quite some sectarian killing going on among Muslims. Because it was so accurately worded?

Tell me, what would he gain from starting a new religion?

Influence, power, women...

The minimum requirements for a woman is that she covers from head to toe, except her hands and face. This is stated in the Qur'an

Nope. Obviously there are different opinions about that.

Anyway, the women of those times are role models for todays muslim women, so muslim women should be imitating them because they were the best of examples.

Then they don't need a headscarf, but a girdle around their loins?

Islam is still the same. The sunni and shia disputes are purely political and I wish they would banish these names and unite

Purely political? If you think so... But they are not the only Islamic sects. Islam has changed, else we would have the same structures in all Muslim cultures all over the world. We don't.

Remember, your not automatically muslim if your born in a muslim family, you have to earn the title.

Remember, there are varying interpretations of the Koran.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

It's good to see you here Shaolin - welcome to the forum!

IF you think that Muhammed wrote the Qur'an then write something like it (in arabic). This is a direct challenge from the Quran. The people the time of the prophet didnt even try because they knew they couldn't do it.
And no-one since has.
The style the Quran has been revealed in is like none other. It was totally new to the arabs of that time. Alot of the people who accepted Islam back then, didnt accept it because of the message but because of this unheard style of poetry.

That proves nothing. People write things in new styles all the time. The challenge to write in Arabic is rather unfair, as most of us can't write Arabic. Even if the Quran is totally original, that doesn't prove Muhammed didn't write it. He might have been a genius. No-one has ever wrote anything remotely resembling Finnegans Wake, and I doubt they ever will. That doesn't make James Joyce a prophet.

 

[No-name]

James Joyce is a prophet. (Albeit just a literary prophet.)

 

[Mycernius]

Third, christians believed the Earth was ROUND. Like that of a coin, not spherical. So it was flat, but round. This is apparent through quite afew verses in the bible.

No they didn't. Christopher Columbus Knew the earth was a sphere. Christians knew the earth was a sphere. There might hve been general among the uneducated masses, but the educated knew you could go around the earth. Their geography might have been a little out, bit you will find that Dante knew the earth was a sphere. In his Divine Comedy they travelled through hell to the other side, where they thought mount Purgatory was and up to heaven.

Hello Mycernius,
Islam has drawn its beliefs from 'pre-Islamic myths'? Muhammed wrote the Quran? Amusing. Another SET of misconceptions. You either truthfully are ignorant about these issues, or your here just to spread decit.

You seem to be the one who is ignorant of your own faiths roots. I have pointed out elsewhere on this thread Allah is a pre-islamic diety. He is from a polythesistic pantheon and was taken by Mohammad as the one true God. Djinns are from pre-islamic myth. The flood is from Mesopotamian myth, which was incorporated ito Jewish and Christian myth and finally Islamic myth. He either wrote the Quran or dictated it from what he knew of other myths, but I do not believe that it was revealed to him by an angel. If so then Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormons, has a better version of God words as the Book of Mormon was revealed to him by an angel in the 19th century.