J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Fustan]

Does anyone know what levels of percentage J2-L283 reaches in Italy?

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Does anyone know what levels of percentage J2-L283 reaches in Italy?

Not precisely but you can read this - https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35355-More-Y-Dna-results-from-Italy

They dont have the specific subclades such as j2b l283 or j-m205 but most j2-m12 would be l283, id say at least 60% since italians also have a fair amount of j-m205

Same case with e-v13 as they havent mentioned how much of m-78 is v13 but again most of it will be in italy. Overall, v13 looks about 2-3x more common than what j2b l283 would be though there are some places like tuscany where j2b and v13 may be equal in frequency

 

[Illyria]

Does anyone know what levels of percentage J2-L283 reaches in Italy?

Frequencies of the main Y-chromosome haplogroups E1b, J2 and R1b and their sub-clades in the 10 analysed Italian population samples. Black sectors in the primary pies are proportional to the frequency of the main haplogroup in each population. Coloured sectors in the secondary pies are proportional to the frequencies of sub-haplogroups within the relative main haplogroup.


J2b is most frequent in the Tortona-Voghera sample,which is located in the open Po Valley, and in Apulia, whichfaces the Adriatic Sea, while it is present at low frequenciesin the Tyrrhenian sample of Calabria and not observed inSicily. Interestingly, its incidence in the Volterra sample iscomparable to that observed along the Salentina Coast and,as in the northern samples, it is mainly represented by the“Balkan” J2b-M241.



Source Reconstructing the genetic history of Italians: new insights from a male (Y-chromosome) perspective

E-V13 is higher overall in Italy than J2b2, but J2b2 peaks in the North in Tortona-Voghera, at 8%, and in Apulia, at 6%. E-V13 peaks in Sicily at 14%, while J2b2 was absent. E-V13 also peaks in Apulia, at nearly 14%. They are both at 4.5% in the Voltera region

 

[Fustan]

Thanks for the info fellas. Really wild to see those levels, 8% in Tortona-Voghera, 6% in Apulia. That's more than the J2-L283 that survived in Croatia an Bosnia which is at around a measly 3.5%. The Slavic invasions must've been devastating. Curious if the J2-L283 in Italy is soley from ancient times though, could've entered through medieval Albanian migrations.

 

[Riverman]

Thanks for the info fellas. Really wild to see those levels, 8% in Tortona-Voghera, 6% in Apulia. That's more than the J2-L283 that survived in Croatia an Bosnia which is at around a measly 3.5%. The Slavic invasions must've been devastating. Curious if the J2-L283 in Italy is soley from ancient times though, could've entered through medieval Albanian migrations.

A good check for such questions might be to check for other of the main Albanian haplogroups, like E-V13 and R-Z2103. TO-VO has one of the lowest E-V13 of all if these numbers are reliable. R-Z2103 seems to be fairly low too. So either its ancient or its from specific clans. The opposite is true for BGP, with E-V13 high, presumably from Urnfield-Hallstatt and Pannonian-Germanics in Antiquity, with very little J-L283.

Apulia on the contrary has both E-V13 and J-L283 at higher levels, so this might indeed be more closely related to Albanians, more recent Illyrians/Balkans etc. The potential R-Z2103 is also more reasonable there too. That's really a difference to the singularly high E-V13 (BGP) or J-L283 (TO_VO) regions which are probably way more ancient.

 

[Fustan]

Some parts of Sicily has up to 19% J2-L283. Wild

Pretty absent in Eastern Sicily though.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

A good check for such questions might be to check for other of the main Albanian haplogroups, like E-V13 and R-Z2103. TO-VO has one of the lowest E-V13 of all if these numbers are reliable. R-Z2103 seems to be fairly low too. So either its ancient or its from specific clans. The opposite is true for BGP, with E-V13 high, presumably from Urnfield-Hallstatt and Pannonian-Germanics in Antiquity, with very little J-L283.

Apulia on the contrary has both E-V13 and J-L283 at higher levels, so this might indeed be more closely related to Albanians, more recent Illyrians/Balkans etc. The potential R-Z2103 is also more reasonable there too. That's really a difference to the singularly high E-V13 (BGP) or J-L283 (TO_VO) regions which are probably way more ancient.

Would be interesting to know how much j2b l283 is in veneto and venezia giulia or did they have a lower frequency than TO_VO as it wasnt mentioned in the article?

TO_VO also has a relatively high frequency of j2a and r1a which is interesting, especially the r1a

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

Edit: double post

 

[Illyria]

Some parts of Sicily has up to 19% J2-L283. Wild

Pretty absent in Eastern Sicily though.

Thanks for the post, what location is the SN at 19% referring to? That's huge, I wonder what caused that spike there

IIRC correctly, Arbereshe are very low in J2b2, mostly being R1b and E-V13. I wonder if it's ancient, or from the medieval times, maybe Arbereshe had more J2b2 back then, than they do today. I'm sure some of it is from more recent migrations too, during the 1900s and especially post-communism when Albanians fled to neighboring countries due to political and economic turmoil

It's been said before by historians that the ancient tribes of Sicily, the Siculi and the Sicani, might be Illyrian migrants who settled there.

The Sicani are the oldest inhabitants of Sicily with a recorded name. In the 5th century BCE, the Greek historian Thucydides,^[2] claims that the Sicani originated on the Iberian Peninsula, from around a river they called "Sicanus" and had migrated to Sicily following an invasion by the Ligurians.^[3][4]

Conversely, Timaeus of Tauromenium (writing c. 300 BCE) considers the Sicani to be indigenous to Sicily.^[6] A third theory, put forward by some modern scholars, suggests that the Sicani were Illyrian immigrants, who gained control of areas previously inhabited by native tribes.^[7] The testimony of a Sicanian migration by land is supported by Greek geographer Pausanias, who does not seem to depend on Thucydides when he asserts that three peoples arrived in Sicily: Sicani, Sicels and Phrygians: the first two came from Italy, while the third came from Troy.^[8]Pliny the Elder and Gaius Julius Solinus also mention the Sicani, among the peoples of the Mount Albanus league in theOld Latium.^[9][10] The Sicans are mentioned in Virgil's Aeneid as allies of the Rutuli, Aurunci and Sacrani of Old Latium.^[11]Aulus Gellius and Macrobius remember them with the Aurunci and the Pelasgians.^[12][13] Archaeological research suggests that the Sicani were influenced at an early stage by the Mycenaeans (prior to the Greek colonisation of Sicily).^[14]

There is also an ancient Balkan tribe that was called 'Sardeatae', or something like that, very similar to the name 'Sardinia', where J2b2 was also found. Might possibly be a connection there too, not sure

I also think it's interesting to bring up an Illyrian weapon, the 'Sica'. This word survived in today's Albanian, as thike, meaning dagger or knife. The Sica was a curved tip sword, useful for getting around an enemies shield. This sword soon became popular in the rest of the Balkans and Rome, with it's origins in the Hallstatt culture. I wonder if 'Sica' has anything to do with the etymology of Siculi, Sicani, or Sicily..

The sica was a short sword or large dagger of ancient Thracians, Dacians and Illyrians, used in Ancient Rome too, originating in the Halstatt culture. It was originally depicted as a curved sword (see the Zliten mosaic as well as numerous oil lamps) and many examples have been found in what are today Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Serbia and Romania. It is also depicted on Trajan's Column; notably the Dacian king Decebalus is depicted dying by suicide with one.

Possibly from Proto-Albaniantsikā (whence Albanianthikë, "knife"), from Proto-Indo-Europeanḱey- ("to sharpen") possibly via Illyrian.^[1][2] According to Dictionnaire des Antiquités Grecques et Romaines^[3] the name Sica comes from Proto-Indo-European root sek-, meaning "to cut", "to section", however De Vaan declares any connection to Proto-Indo-European sek- to be formally impossible.^[4]

 

[PaleoRevenge]

It is interesting that J2b2 barely exists among the Serbo-Croatian states, the Serbs truly wiped out the natives to the last man. Compare with northern Albania where there was some compromise with the older Latinized Illyrian layer and in the South Albania where the Slavic layer was also absorbed. The migration and settlement of Albanians was more humane.

 

[Fustan]

Thanks for the post, what location is the SN at 19% referring to? That's huge, I wonder what caused that spike there

IIRC correctly, Arbereshe are very low in J2b2, mostly being R1b and E-V13. I wonder if it's ancient, or from the medieval times, maybe Arbereshe had more J2b2 back then, than they do today. I'm sure some of it is from more recent migrations too, during the 1900s and especially post-communism when Albanians fled to neighboring countries due to political and economic turmoil

It's been said before by historians that the ancient tribes of Sicily, the Siculi and the Sicani, might be Illyrian migrants who settled there.





There is also an ancient Balkan tribe that was called 'Sardeatae', or something like that, very similar to the name 'Sardinia', where J2b2 was also found. Might possibly be a connection there too, not sure

I also think it's interesting to bring up an Illyrian weapon, the 'Sica'. This word survived in today's Albanian, as thike, meaning dagger or knife. The Sica was a curved tip sword, useful for getting around an enemies shield. This sword soon became popular in the rest of the Balkans and Rome, with it's origins in the Hallstatt culture. I wonder if 'Sica' has anything to do with the etymology of Siculi, Sicani, or Sicily..

I assume it refers to some Western region, not actually sure.

Yea J2-L283 was low in Arbereshe, funnily enough I have a Arberesh Y-DNA relative on FTDNA though which is cool. It could be that Arberesh mostly descend from Southern Albanians in Albania and Greece, who don't have as much J2b2.

 

[Trojet]

Some parts of Sicily has up to 19% J2-L283. Wild

Pretty absent in Eastern Sicily though.

That's intersting indeed. Within Sicily, Arbëreshë did settle Western Sicily: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arbëresh_settlements#Sicily

 

[torzio]

View attachment 13123
Frequencies of the main Y-chromosome haplogroups E1b, J2 and R1b and their sub-clades in the 10 analysed Italian population samples. Black sectors in the primary pies are proportional to the frequency of the main haplogroup in each population. Coloured sectors in the secondary pies are proportional to the frequencies of sub-haplogroups within the relative main haplogroup.


J2b is most frequent in the Tortona-Voghera sample,which is located in the open Po Valley, and in Apulia, whichfaces the Adriatic Sea, while it is present at low frequenciesin the Tyrrhenian sample of Calabria and not observed inSicily. Interestingly, its incidence in the Volterra sample iscomparable to that observed along the Salentina Coast and,as in the northern samples, it is mainly represented by the“Balkan” J2b-M241.

View attachment 13122

Source Reconstructing the genetic history of Italians: new insights from a male (Y-chromosome) perspective

E-V13 is higher overall in Italy than J2b2, but J2b2 peaks in the North in Tortona-Voghera, at 8%, and in Apulia, at 6%. E-V13 peaks in Sicily at 14%, while J2b2 was absent. E-V13 also peaks in Apulia, at nearly 14%. They are both at 4.5% in the Voltera region

you left out GS = Greek Salentina in old messapic lands and its 12.2% E=V13

 

[mount123]

It is interesting that J2b2 barely exists among the Serbo-Croatian states, the Serbs truly wiped out the natives to the last man. Compare with northern Albania where there was some compromise with the older Latinized Illyrian layer and in the South Albania where the Slavic layer was also absorbed. The migration and settlement of Albanians was more humane.

Illyrian remnant populations more than likely lived in various areas including North Albania and Kosovo (e. g. Ulpiana Plateau etc.).

 

[mount123]

Some cannot make conclusions solely out of modern haplogroup distributions as by now it is a known fact that population displacements, intermixing and near radical replacements of former population groups were far from being a rarity in human history (still aren't).

 

[enter_tain]

I'm tired of us using the vague term Illyrian.

"The name "Illyrians", as applied by the ancient Greeks to their northern neighbors, may have referred to a broad, ill-defined group of peoples. The Illyrian tribes never collectively identified as "Illyrians", and it is unlikely that they used any collective nomenclature at all.^[3]Illyrians seems to be the name of a specific Illyrian tribe who were among the first to encounter the ancient Greeks during the Bronze Age.^[4] The Greeks later applied this term Illyrians, pars pro toto, to all people with similar language and customs.^[5]"

It's time to start figuring out which specific Illyrian tribes were J-L283.
View attachment 13108

^.

It's not vague at all. It's some revisionist clowns who think they know better than the Greeks and Romans who fought/traded/interacted with them. The Illyrians formed alliances with one another constantly so they were clearly related, even if distant.

Northern and Southern Illyrians were no different than Aegean Greeks and Epirotes/Macedonians, or Italic people in the south and north of Italy.

 

[Galaxy Overlord]

It's not vague at all. It's some revisionist clowns who think they know better than the Greeks and Romans who fought/traded/interacted with them. The Illyrians formed alliances with one another constantly so they were clearly related, even if distant.

Northern and Southern Illyrians were no different than Aegean Greeks and Epirotes/Macedonians, or Italic people in the south and north of Italy.

Are you claiming that all of the Illyrian tribes had J-L283 as their predominate haplogroup? The modern and ancient haplogroups samples found in the Western Balkans make up a large amount of various haplogroups that indicate settlement by various haplogroups prior to the R1a invasions, not just J-L283. Unless your talking about genetically, then sure they were probably somewhat autosomal and culturally similar, but that does not mean they share the same origin nor is it relevant to a haplogroup thread. The Romans called all tribes to the north Barbarians, these tribes "formed alliances with one another constantly" should we study them all grouped up as barbarians, or should we note the differences between their haplogroup origins?

Furthermore, your final point equates northern and southern Illyrians as having no differences with Aegean Greeks, Macedonians, and Italics throughout the entire Italian peninsula. I usually don't understand why people get annoyed in these threads and I don't think I ever personally have, but you implying that I'm a clown when you make comments like this is insane. You believe we should view the majority of the Balkans and italic tribes as all being one in the same. I guess Britons were no different then the Danish because we should blindly trust the bias accounts of the past despite the current genetic evidence we have that contradicts it. Now I get why you guys are always saying people are in here trolling, but does this guy have some sort of agenda or something?

 

[mount123]

Are you claiming that all of the Illyrian tribes had J-L283 as their predominate haplogroup? The modern and ancient haplogroups samples found in the Western Balkans make up a large amount of haplogroups that indicate settlement by various haplogroups prior to the R1a invasions, not just J-L283. Unless your talking about genetically, then sure they were probably somewhat autosomal and culturally similar, but that does not mean they share the same origin nor is it relevant to a haplogroup thread. The Romans called all tribes to the north Barbarians, these tribes "formed alliances with one another constantly" should we study them all grouped up as barbarians, or should we note the differences between their haplogroup origins?

Furthermore, your final point equates northern and southern Illyrians as having no differences with Aegean Greeks, Macedonians, and Italics throughout the entire Italian peninsula. I usually don't understand why people get annoyed in these threads and I don't think I ever personally have, but you implying that I'm a clown when you make comments like this is insane. You believe we should view the majority of the Balkans and italic tribes as all being one in the same. I guess Britons were no different then the Danish because we should blindly trust the bias accounts of the past despite the current genetic evidence we have that contradicts it. Now I get why you guys are always saying people are in here trolling, but does this guy have some sort of agenda or something?

You misunderstood that user. He actually is meaning the contrary: Illyrians somehow being multiethnic and carrying multiple lineages that make up the mainstream Albanian chart (E1b-V13, R1b-Z2705 and J2b-L283). aDNA does not support this whatsoever.

An important note: Slavs did not just bring various clades of R1a they also brought mainly I-Y3120 especially >S17250>PH908.

​As for your original question Polska sums it up very well.

 

[mount123]

You misunderstood that user. He actually is meaning the contrary: Illyrians somehow being multiethnic and carrying multiple lineages that make up the mainstream Albanian chart (E1b-V13, R1b-Z2705 and J2b-L283). aDNA does not support this whatsoever.

An important note: Slavs did not just bring various clades of R1a they also brought mainly I-Y3120 especially >S17250>PH908.

​As for your original question Polska sums it up very well.

This was Polska's post that I was referring to:

I think with this latest Patterson/Reich paper that we all know about by now, we can at least say that these guys are most certainly Iapodes: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y86930/, an Illyrian tribe. I’m not sure what to think about this sample under Z38241 from Jazinka Cave, Croatia: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38241/

Most of the sampling so far has been heavily weighted towards northern “Illyrian” areas (Croatia and Slovenia), so there is definitely a bias towards Z38240 and downstream clades as a result. With additional sampling of ancient DNA, I have no doubt that a wide variety of different L283 lineages will be found amongst all Illyrian tribes. The Patterson paper was very telling. These Iapodes were very heavy on Y86930, which is just one of many branches underneath PH1602. PH1602 is not even a major branch. It’s not rare, but it’s not that common either.

We have all these guys underneath Z638 and Z1297 along with this huge find from Gudnja Cave in southern Croatia: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1297/. This Gudnja Cave sample is a harbinger of ancient samples to come, I think, as they start sampling areas with more southern Illyrian tribes. There are many samples in the pipeline it seems and once they drop, these guys who know a thing or two about various Illyrian tribes will help flesh out the details as to which tribes match up to specific L283 Z597 and below lineages.

I don’t have any Balkan autosomal ancestry. My American families all come from Wales (Celts), England, Poland and Germany. So, to me, the “Illyrian” thing is kind of cool. If I didn’t know I was L283, I’d have no clue that I had ancient ancestors down in the western Balkans 3000 or more years ago. Gives me a sense of kinship, in a way, with Balkan people that I otherwise wouldn’t have, if that makes sense. It’s the old homeland.

The presence of J2b-L283 in the ancient West Adriatic (Daunian paper) is also very indicative. They were Illyrians that merged with Italics.

As for your question regarding Albanian and Slavic nationalist trolls in this forum: their main problem, especially for Albanians, is that the majority of the Illyrian samples are J2b-L283 and the spread of J2b-L283 therefore being more centered on the East Adriatic/Western Balkans. E1b-V13 most likely being spread with Channeled ware (R1b-Z2705 also being more in sync with E1b-V13s spread) most likely giving birth to Proto-Albanians would mean that Illyrians (J2b-L283) had nothing to do with them.

It is basically just some nationalist trolls that have an identity crisis and spread misinformation.

 

[Hawk]

As for the Timacum Minus, i could find classifications for 2 J2b2-L283 and 1 E-V13 graves, Serbian archaeologists are unsure whether they are Dardanian or Dalmatian, or mixed Dardanian/Dalmatian.

Along with the numerous recorded injuries (cuts on the head and the fused fissure of the right tibia (grave 15),injuries to the processus zygomaticus (grave 26) andinjuries to the head in the region of the asterion (grave123)), what is surely worth mentioning are the cases ofscurvy observed in the individuals buried in graves 28and 76, which would indicate that they moved over tothe Timok valley, or that they resided over a longerperiod of time outside of this fertile area, which couldprovide fruit and vegetables rich in vitamins.Although the grave finds from phase I of the Slog necropolis do not essentially differ from those from graves of the subsequent phase (Pl. II–III), the component of the regular Roman army is more prominent,which is reflected in the finds of crossbow fibulae (Pl.II, 1, 6) and bronze belt sets (Pl. III, 1–2). Generally, itis possible that they are members of the same militaryunit, pseudocomitatenses Timacenses auxiliarii, or officers of the II Aurelia Dardanorum equestrian cohort,which unquestionably made up the Timacum Minus garrison from the middle of the 2nd to the end of the 3rdor the beginning of the 4th century, possibly even to the last quarter of the 4th century, that is to the Battle o fHadrianopolis in 378.95 However, what should not beruled out are the equestrian units of Numeri Dalmatorum,testified to by stamps on bricks from the 4th phase of the fortification reconstruction, during the period of the reign of Valentinian I and Valens (364–375).96 Thatthey were really warriors is also confirmed by, amongother things, a cut inflicted by a sharp blade, most likely a sword or knife, on the mentum and a fissure of theright tibia (grave 91), an injury on the right femur(grave 99) and a myositis ossificans traumatica notedon the left tibia (grave 141).

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273312912_Military_graves_from_the_Late_Roman_necropolis_at_slog_in_Ravna_Timacum_Minus

I have written here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...m-VIDEO/page27?p=638310&viewfull=1#post638310

So, we have three options:

1. Timacenses auxiliarii/Illiricum: From Scupi,Ulpiana and so far unlocated place called Merion. Dardanians or from generic places from Illyricum.
2. Aurelia Dardanorum
3. Numeri Dalmatorum

As for the other 1 J2b2-L283 and other 2 E-V13 graves, couldn't find classifications. But, likely approximately similar origin as the others from this graveyards.