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Religion Jesus could not be the SOG(Son of God)

kumo said:
Indeed. Christians like to play the "traumatized life" card™ a lot when explaining why they believe

Do they? I've yet to come across this.

After all, we all want to be tortured for eternity for not believing, right?

Ah, but if you don't believe, then by definition you don't believe there will be any torture, because you don't believe hell exists.

True, period.

My original comment of "Not true, period." was a reference to StrongVoicesForward's statement "Xtians indoctrinate (a polite word for brainwash) their children from a very early age." That is an untrue statement. Example: Sabro. "My family at this time was split between socialists and conservatives-- none of whom are remotely religious". There you go - a person who was not indoctrinated to Christianity by his parents.

sabro said:
The greatness was in reference to Kinsao

Whaaat?!? :shock:

I'm keeping out of this - I know f**k all. I'm only responding because I don't know when to keep my mouth shut. :bluush:
 
Kinsao said:
Do they? I've yet to come across this.
Well, being a theist you probably don't discuss with christians that much, I assume. Or maybe that tactic is not so common in the US and England (though I have seen it on American forums hundreds of times).
Ah, but if you don't believe, then by definition you don't believe there will be any torture, because you don't believe hell exists.
Oh please, don't pretend you didn't get my point. I was just showing you that the reason some people do not believe in hell is only a matter of intellectual honesty, it has nothing to do with trying to escape from punishment as you implied (even because that would be just wishful thinking, which most atheists despise).
My original comment of "Not true, period." was a reference to StrongVoicesForward's statement "Xtians indoctrinate (a polite word for brainwash) their children from a very early age." That is an untrue statement. Example: Sabro. "My family at this time was split between socialists and conservatives-- none of whom are remotely religious". There you go - a person who was not indoctrinated to Christianity by his parents.
Consider these two statements:
"Christians have been brainwashed by their parents."
"Christian parents brainwash their children."
Do they mean the same thing? Certainly not; as you pointed out, people can become christians without being indoctrinated by their parents, but that has absolutely no relation with the second sentence, which was SVF point before you twisted it. So, I bet you will be surprised to hear that both Sabro's kids are christians, right? I mean, what a coincidence!
I'm not saying Sabro has brainwashed his kids, at least not intentionally so; but seriously, if Sabro was a muslim, which religion do you think his kids would be now? Do you really think the parent's religion plays no role at all in their children's "choice"?
 
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Kinsao- it was only my way of thanking you for posting. I enjoy your input and it was nice to hear from someone who is at least a little sane.
 
sabro said:
Could you try to answer my questions from #152?

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

No.

The greatness was in reference to Kinsao- who among others, has seen through you thin, bitter tirade.

Brother Sabro, are you "rebuking" me again? All your "rebuking" me and praising of others who "rebuke" me should have at least lead the Big "J" to smite me by now. Perhaps he, too, is laughing at you.

Probably not, because your beloved Jesus and his Papa do not exist -- only between the ear wax in each of your ears.
 
sabro said:
I was only 15 at the time, and I had been considering and thinking and debating my waning atheism for about two years. I'm not sure fear of hell played much of a part at all.

However, the groundwork of the Xtian mindframe had already been laid in you at a much younger age. You did say earlier that your parents stopped going to church at 6, right? I've seen kids praying to Bible God as young as 3 or 4.

The Great Superstition seduces the child mind with all those stories that are easy for kids to relate to -- such as cute animals being saved on a boat before heavy rain. A tower to heaven being broken down before it gets to the top, etc...

Then when they are older, they get to hear some of the other stories and if they read the Bible for themselves they find all the whole chain and ball that they must accept in order to keep hold of the other cute stories they were raised on. It is the classical "bait and switch" routine. By that time, in many cases they are too deep to get out.

Some go through the stage where they get laxed on those beliefs and may even feel they are drifting towards atheism, but like you said, you hadn`t completely shaken the Great Superstition off -- it dragged you back.

"I'm not sure?" -- you mean you don't know, right? Sounds like you were always a Xtian to some degree (usually that means hypocritical Xtian), and never a Freethinker.
 
Strongvoicesforward- I appologize if I made fun of your forum handle. I did not know it would offend you.

I don't mind sharing my personal story, but I would appreciate a minimum amount of respect. I did not share it to give you more fodder for ridicule and abuse. I find that your above explanation is not only unparallel to what I wrote, it is a rather bitter non-sequitor. It sounds rather sad. Perhaps it describes your experience, but it does not describe mine.

"I'm not sure" means I am not sure. I think we went over this before. It doesn't mean "I don't know." It also doesn't mean that I was an "Xtian" ever. What I said was that "I'm not sure the whole hell thing played any role."
I don't think it was a big deal to me 25 years ago, and fear of hell has never been a big motivator as far as I can remember.

This may be why bossel asked if English is your first language. You seem to try to read into things stuff that is not there. I believe I was communicating quite clearly.
 
Kinsao chan !!! I was also very glad to see your post, and know that you are following along !! I do care !! Perhaps a few of the comments you gave could use some more thought and such, but that's the whole reason for putting a lot of the stuff out on the table that we do--to check it out, punch and poke it, test it, put it under the microscope, then X-ray it, run it through fMRI after having given it a SCAT scan. . .and then see if it's still healthy !!
I also am following this thread, and although I did not intend to post so soon, really, I have just recieved a higher calling, and my motor drive is simply obeying.

Gentlemen of the thread, please ! If I may have your attention, PLEASE !! (without pointing any fingers or calling any names) I wish to make the appeal, that we return to the point of the thread--primarily the point, that is--and discuss the matter of to just what degree it can be determined that Jesus, as the only documentation that bears on the matter of that figure allows (both canon and non-canon) is the "Son of God" as that same documentation defines and describes such concept.

May I suggest that it is neither in the thread's nor the sub-forum's best interest that the degree of aggrevation (no dictionary with me at the moment) that is swarming in circles above our better knowledge of such negativity, be reduced back down to that of only testing and counter-pointing evidences, logical strings, data, and or points related to the proving of claims.

Although I myself, do not really, in any way, have the authority to demand such, my heart, and my care and love for academical discussions simply took over my body. I only wish, hope, AND desire, that we all stick more closely to the topic at hand with less sarcasim, 'other-person', personal related smears, and in a more agreed upon tone of 'listening' to all voices participating. PLEASE !!!!!!!
...and I hope you stay with us there Kinsao san !!:-) :relief:
 
And of course !!! With the term 'gentlemen', I was in full considered consciousness appealing to only that particular sex !!!:-) :-) :wave:

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Mars Man, to me the problem with this topic is that before we can even start any discussion we would need these two things:
-Evidence that Jesus existed. (which unlike most others "historical persons" is very scarce and apocryphal)
-Proof that he did anything that is told in the bible or any other document. (which lacks any evidence whatsoever to begin with)
If we can't ascertain these two criterions with a minimum amount of credibility, then we have no material to discuss and any possible conclusion on this subject will be necessarily utterly baseless.

Sorry if this was covered already. Didn't read the whole thread.
 
sabro said:
Strongvoicesforward- I appologize if I made fun of your forum handle. I did not know it would offend you.

Why wouldn`t you know that if in fact you are requesting that your name not be made fun of? Sounds like you haven`t given much thought to "The Golden Rule," or even Jesus' own teaching to you as a Christian about turning the other cheek. You are letting him down as you display Christians in a way that do not follow what their own book encourages them to do.
 
sabro said:
You seem to try to read into things stuff that is not there.

You have got to be kidding if you are saying this with a straight face and how you read things into the Bible that are not there. Like sarcasm and irony into Paul admitting he was a person who caught people by "deceit." This is you, Sabro, again, wanting special consideration from your perspective but not granting that same consideration to others'.

Now, stop reading things into the Bible.

I believe I was communicating quite clearly.

Your belief is askewed.

I am wondering t though, were you "rebuking" me again? <snicker snicker>

Always funny to see you pat people on the back for rebuking me.
 
Christians are also fallible, and I wouldn't attempt to paint one badly for getting more personal with someone who was constantly trying to pick out flaws in him, his intelligence, and his beliefs.

I also agree that you, Strongvoicesforward, do read your own meanings into some of the verses. Were the verses so blatantly saying what you think they are saying, then it would be hard to defend the faith, or read the verses with any seriousness at all.

It is natural for a Christian to come at the Bible with subjectivity, but a non-believer should have less subjectivity, and SVF you seem to be taking your subjectivity to even further extremes than even the only Christian defending his beliefs here.
 
I cannot prove that Jesus is the Son of God. I don't think anyone can. I cannot prove the historical Jesus existed, although I think there is significant documentation outside of the Christian cannon to strongly suggest he lived at the time and place. I think you will find adequate documentation in the Bible to support all of the standard doctrine that the Christian church at large seems to follow-- which proves only that most Christian churches base their doctrines on the Bible....

Other than this, I am wondering what the point of the thread is.
 
strongvoicesforward said:
Why wouldn`t you know that if in fact you are requesting that your name not be made fun of? Sounds like you haven`t given much thought to "The Golden Rule," or even Jesus' own teaching to you as a Christian about turning the other cheek. You are letting him down as you display Christians in a way that do not follow what their own book encourages them to do.

I again appologize. Gomen Nasai.
 
I greatly appreciate the honesty that can be seen and felt in that, sabro san !! :cool:

I may well have been at fault for getting things a bit off-track in an earlier post, and I likewise apologize for that. We all make mistakes. ... it feels so great to be human...:p :relief: :-)
 
sabro said:
I cannot prove that Jesus is the Son of God. I don't think anyone can. I cannot prove the historical Jesus existed, although I think there is significant documentation outside of the Christian cannon to strongly suggest he lived at the time and place.
Care to share with us this documentation, Sabro? And by that I mean documents based on first-hand accounts, not just hearsay, fraudulent writings or desperate attempts to fill History gaps when it comes to christianity origins.
 
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I will come back with some of the documentation for that kumo san, soon enough; please hold off on that for a while, as I suggest that we go back to some earlier stages of discussion on this thread.

I want to look once more at the opening post, and then at a few things which had been laid out on the table in support of that. I would strong urge the laxation of arguments not bearing more directly on that opening title and the first points made in support of that claim. Please.
 
Mars Man said:
I would strong urge the laxation of arguments not bearing more directly on that opening title and the first points made in support of that claim. Please.
Ok, sorry if my tone seemed harsh, wasn't my intention. I have already edited my post.
I hope we can have a meaningful discussion on this matter.:wave:
 
I couldn't agree more with Mars Man's appeal that we get back to the topic at hand. In that spirit (and sorry to pre-empt you onii-san), here is a (non-exhaustive) list of extra-biblical references to Jesus, all of which are disputed:

Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian, claimed as the earliest non-Christian who mentions 'Jesus'. It is a short account in Antiquities, written in 93 C.E.

Pliny the Younger, a Roman official, wrote well after the supposed life of Jesus. It seems fairly clear that this account is hearsay.

Tacitus, the Roman historian gives a brief mention of a "Christus" in his Annals, written around 109 C.E.

Suetonius, a Roman historian, mentions a "Chrestus" in his writings. Most scholars don't consider this a reference to Jesus at all.

Talmud: Some Christians use references to Yeshu as evidence for Jesus. However, Yeshu was a common enough Jewish name at the time.
 
Sabro, thank you for your apologies. Mars Man, thank you for the private message.

MM, I will consider what you said, however, I am not going to jump on board because I am wondering how genuine the whole thing is. To me, it seems a little like just imploring me to give special consideration to Sabro, rather than for the benefit of the thread or the discussion.

For example, Sabro comes on and makes an apology and you feel a need to ?gthank him?h for the honesty of it. I made an apology about a week ago to Sabro about a quote, and hey -- no thanks for that honesty -- in fact that apology was questioned and Sabro even mocked it. So, why shouldn`t I mock his apology or refer to it derogatively? I won`t. But, it raises my eyebrow. It tells me that all you prior forum acquaintances, before my appearance, are interested in propping each other up even when someone clearly has done something wrong.

When I made the mistake and knocked Sabro`s quote out of context, Revenant, Tsuyoiko, and perhaps a few others were quick to jump on me. However, when Sabro knocked my forum handle there was no jumping on him for doing that. In fact, Mycernius ignores that and focuses on my paying pack in kind. It is just lopsided and to say you want me to hold back for the forum and thread makes me think it isn?ft for that reason, but wanting to give a little more cushion of respect to someone?fs sensitivity. I haven`t seen any application of equal ?grebuking?h (a favorite term of Sabro`s) so I assume that this overture is somewhat shallow.

Another thing that Sabro continues to do is to encourage flaming. He did it on the hunting thread, has done it in the Whale thread, and just thinks it endears him to others when he compliments ?grebukes?h when they are laced with direct salvos of words where people call someone ?glooney,?h or ?gHitler,?h etc...

I know he will respond to that again like he did in the past where he said he complimented a part of the post and therefore he technically did not encourage that part that was crude or overtly offensive. He is the one that soured the two of us on this forum so I see no reason to make the first step in starting on a better footing. In addition, I do not take kindly to Private Messages being forwarded to others, which he admitted he did. He still tries to defend that.

Now, those are my grievances with him and until all of you can give them equal consideration or Sabro can face up to those wrongs innitiated by him, I don`t really feel any need to go out of my way to dance around him with niceties since he was the one who innitiated the sour atmosphere. All you who feel it is better to stick up for a forum friend rather than what is equal, well, that is fine. I can handle that as well -- as what I am sure to be Sabro`s coming snide sidestepping of the points I have brought up.

Until honesty from all the regular visitors to the religion/philosophy forums becomes a two way street of egalitarian reciprocity, spreading criticism around equally where wrongs are committed and examined retroactively, then I will retain my style of brutal honesty with the witticism that some of you deplore and others find entertaining, lively and humorous.

I could easily change my style to ammend that, but that is not going to come from just a request, but from some honest postings about how people purposely piled on me when I may have been wrong, but at the same time, also held back in piling on Sabro when he was clearly wrong with his snide or inappropriate comments.
 
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