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Jewish people, where they are from?

You have to download the paper in this link.

http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/humbiol_preprints/41/

I3bATv3.png


The most likely explaination is that the original Jews were similar to modern Druzes. The Mizrahim later mixed with Iranic/Caucasian people while the Sephardim/Ashkenazim mixed with Iberians and to a much lesser extent North Slavs, Khazars and North West Africans IMHO.
 
joeyc said:
You have to download the paper in this link.

http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/humbiol_preprints/41/

I3bATv3.png


The most likely explaination is that the original Jews were similar to modern Druzes. The Mizrahim later mixed with Iranic/Caucasian people while the Sephardim/Ashkenazim mixed with Iberians and to a much lesser extent North Slavs, Khazars and North West Africans IMHO.
Click to expand...

Alright. As you can see this is the Lizardis plot, which clearly shows AJs plot between Cypriots and Greeks, alongside Maltese and Sicilians, whether this is the result of admixture with Iberians, and to a much lesser extent northern Slavs, Khazars and northwest Africans, I don't know, however, that would explain why on K13 I get this:


Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 East_Med 33.95
2 North_Atlantic 21.11
3 West_Med 19.23
4 West_Asian 13.53
5 Baltic 5.45
6 Red_Sea 4.46
7 Northeast_African 0.86
8 East_Asian 0.86
9 Oceanian 0.33
10 Sub-Saharan 0.22


Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Italian 4.94
2 Ashkenazi 7.45
3 Sephardic_Jewish 7.66
4 Greek 9.29
5 Tuscan 11.95
6 Cyprian 16.41
7 North_Italian 18.4
8 Lebanese_Muslim 19.4
9 Bulgarian 20.53
10 Syrian 20.84
11 Turkish 21.47
12 Romanian 22.17
13 Lebanese_Druze 22.23
14 Samaritan 22.5
15 Palestinian 22.83
16 Jordanian 22.97
17 Lebanese_Christian 23.41
18 Algerian 24.9
19 Azeri_Jewish 25.69
20 Spanish_Extremadura 25.71


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 55.1% Lebanese_Druze + 44.9% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.25
2 54.2% Lebanese_Druze + 45.8% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.4
3 56.2% Lebanese_Druze + 43.8% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.69
4 58.2% Lebanese_Druze + 41.8% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.71
5 55.8% Lebanese_Druze + 44.2% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.74
6 58.2% Lebanese_Druze + 41.8% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.76
7 59.7% Lebanese_Druze + 40.3% Southwest_French @ 2.79
8 54.8% North_Italian + 45.2% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.82
9 54.3% Lebanese_Druze + 45.7% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.87
10 65.5% Tuscan + 34.5% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.87
11 55.8% Lebanese_Druze + 44.2% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.17
12 65.9% Lebanese_Druze + 34.1% French_Basque @ 3.24
13 53.7% Lebanese_Druze + 46.3% Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.31
14 54% Lebanese_Druze + 46% Portuguese @ 3.4
15 85.8% Sephardic_Jewish + 14.2% Southeast_English @ 3.84
16 85% Sephardic_Jewish + 15% German @ 3.84
17 54.6% Lebanese_Christian + 45.4% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.86
18 55.5% Lebanese_Druze + 44.5% Spanish_Galicia @ 3.94
19 86.5% Sephardic_Jewish + 13.5% Danish @ 3.95
20 86.6% Sephardic_Jewish + 13.4% Orcadian @ 3.95



P.S As for your comment on the Mizrahis, I agree, considering the fact that they plot next to Christian Assyrians, Kurds etc.

P.P.S Thanks for the link. :)
 
Last edited:
joeyc said:
The explanation is that Ashkenazim have very little Khazar ancestry (Chuvash+North Caucasus). They are most likely a mix of Sephardim and North Slavs (85% and 15% respectively)



The oracle software from Gedmatch is not reliable.

1) Because it is based on the ADMIXTURE analysis, which is an approximation of the genome.

2) Because it doesn't count the FST distances between the components.

Indeed AJs have a significant amount of African like ancestry (10% of Red Sea+SSA+NE African) which is enough to pull them away from Europeans. The best way is to look at a Global PCA plot (based on the genome). Like this from Behar et al. 2013.

aNaQLL6.jpg


The plot on the left show the first two most significant components. AJs (labeled as AshJ) are closest to North African and Sephardi Jews, then Sicilians (ItS), Armenians (Arm), Druzes (Dru) and Cypriots (Cyp).

Other Italians and South Europeans are quite far from the AJs.
Click to expand...

What's the difference between the plot on the left and the one on the right? The one on the right shows AJs plotting between South Italians and Cypriots, the one on the left strangely puts AJs away from the gap and closer to Iraqi Jews than to Sephardi Jews and Italqim, that doesn't seem right...
 
1) He is called Lazaridis. Jews have a very high mean verbal IQ, PLEASE!

2) You seem to be closer to Druzes than to Valencians. But then Eurogenes and its oracle sofware are amateur stuff, so not vey reliable.

Keep in mind that Behar kept only the longest shared IBD segments, which means that the IBD analysis shows only the most recent admixture events (last 500 years or so).

From the paper.

IBD was analyzed using GERMLINE 1.5.1 (Gusev and others, 2009) on the phased unpruned data.We ran GERMLINE with default parameters (-min_m 3 –bits 128 –err_hom 4 –err_het 1) to detect
pairwise IBD sharing for all pairs of study samples. Following previous work (Gusev and others,
2012), we searched for genomic regions in which sparse SNP coverage yields false positive IBD
calls, and excised them from the GERMLINE-estimated IBD segments; specially, we divided the
genome into non-overlapping 1-Mb blocks and excised blocks with <100 SNPs. We then kept
only the shared IBD segments whose length, following excisions, exceeded 3 Mb. Finally, we
discarded from the analysis chromosomes 6, 11 and 12, which presented a high level of
excessive false-positive sharing, similar to effects observed previously (Gusev and others, 2012).
Click to expand...

Regarding the PCA plot.

Figure 2a presents the first two principal components (PCs) of genetic variation at three levelsof magnification, color-coding the samples by geographic region. The two plots at lower
magnification indicate that PC placement of most Jewish populations, including the Ashkenazi
Jews, is far from such geographically distant populations as East Asians, South Asians, and Sub-
Saharan Africans.
Click to expand...

The Ashkenazi Jewish samples produce a relatively tight cluster that overlaps with someJewish and non-Jewish populations. Among the Jewish populations, Ashkenazi Jews fall closest
to Italian Jews, Middle Eastern Jews, North African Jews, and Sephardi Jews, positioned
continuously with other Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations along PC1. Among non-Jewish
populations, Ashkenazi Jews lie nearest to Armenians, Cypriots, Druze, Greeks, and Sicilians.
Four Ashkenazi Jews fall outside the main Ashkenazi cluster and lie closer to Europeans.
Click to expand...
 
@John Doe the plot on the right shows the first and third important components.

They are less important. The greatest amount of genetic diversity is showed on the left.

Keep in mind that it's quite hard to represent a Global PCA plot with just only 2 dimensions. It would be a grossly approximation.
 
joeyc said:
1) He is called Lazaridis. Jews have a very high mean verbal IQ, PLEASE!

2) You seem to be closer to Druzes than to Valencians. But then Eurogenes and its oracle sofware are amateur stuff, so not vey reliable.

Keep in mind that Behar kept only the longest shared IBD segments, which means that the IBD analysis shows only the most recent admixture events (last 500 years or so).

From the paper.



Regarding the PCA plot.
Click to expand...

lol My mistake, I forgot his surname, I usually don't get typos, I was just tired at that time and didn't look up his surname. I suppose that would make sense, considering the fact that I'm not entirely sure AJs were ever in Spain. :-\
 
joeyc said:
@John Doe the plot on the right shows the first and third important components.

They are less important. The greatest amount of genetic diversity is showed on the left.

Keep in mind that it's quite hard to represent a Global PCA plot with just only 2 dimensions. It would be a grossly approximation.
Click to expand...

I see. That makes sense. So basically the left plot doesn't show that AJs plot closer to Iraqi Jews than to Sephardi and Italian Jews? It's just because the plot is 2 dimensional? That plot also seem to show we're closer to Armenians than to south Italians, that also took me by surprise, but according to what you said AJs are closer to Sicilians according to the plot. And besides, Armenians and Georgians also seem to be in this gap.
 
Last edited:
Here are the Eurogenes K15 results for AJs and West-Sicilians:


[TD="class: xl63"]Population[/TD]
[TD="class: xl63"]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[TD="class: xl63"]West_Sicilian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl63"]Norwegian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl63"]French[/TD]
[TD="class: xl63"]Danish[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]North_Sea[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]9.89[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]9.763333333[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]39.74[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]28.25[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]36.56333[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]Atlantic[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]10.7[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]18.32[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]23.47[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]26.05[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]27.75667[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]Baltic[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]6.74[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]4.696666667[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]13.26[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]8.22[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]11.58667[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]Eastern_Euro[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]5.17[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]3.27[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]11.48[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]6.32[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]10.71333[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]West_Med[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]14.82[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]17.75666667[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]6.36[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]15.53[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]5.99[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]13.05[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]10.64333333[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]2.24[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]4.66[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]3.34[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]East_Med[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]26.61[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]26.74666667[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.8[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]6.72[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]2.036667[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]8.07[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]5.373333333[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.14[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]2.83[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.29[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]1.2[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]0.566666667[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.81[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.71[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]1.026667[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]Southeast_Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.6[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]0.19[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.08[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.09[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.08[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.58[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]0.083333333[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.09[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.093333[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]Amerindian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.32[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]0.01[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.72[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.2[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.186667[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.24[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]0.52[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.32[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.15[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.073333[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]1.63[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]1.326666667[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.06[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.11[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.186667[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.39[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]0.723333333[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.04[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.07[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.07[/TD]

The two components that the West-Sicilians most clearly have more of are the Atlantic and West_Med components. This seems plausibly to be in alignment with the theory of them having Norman admixture, since those two components are very West-European, and are carried in fairly high proportions among the French, Norwegian and Danish populations, from which the Normans are said to be descended. The components in order where the AJs are most clearly higher are: Red_Sea, West_Asian, Baltic, and Eastern_Euro, and they are not much higher in those components than the West_Sicilians. The North_Sea component is marginally higher in the AJs. The largest difference is clearly in the Atlantic component. In light of this, maybe I wouldn't rule out just yet the AJs having a bit of that Khazar admixture - albeit a very small proportion. Here's the source table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdHRPeVdMUDNjOVZETVoxZHpqVG5qNHc&usp=sharing
 
AJs are actually closer to Eastern Sicilians on the Eurogenes amateur crap.
 
JS Bach said:
Here are the Eurogenes K15 results for AJs and West-Sicilians:


[TD="class: xl63"]Population[/TD]
[TD="class: xl63"]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[TD="class: xl63"]West_Sicilian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl63"]Norwegian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl63"]French[/TD]
[TD="class: xl63"]Danish[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63"]North_Sea[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]9.89[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]9.763333333[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]39.74[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]28.25[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]36.56333[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]Atlantic[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]10.7[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]18.32[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]23.47[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]26.05[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]27.75667[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]Baltic[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]6.74[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]4.696666667[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]13.26[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]8.22[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]11.58667[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]Eastern_Euro[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]5.17[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]3.27[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]11.48[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]6.32[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]10.71333[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]West_Med[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]14.82[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]17.75666667[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]6.36[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]15.53[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]5.99[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]13.05[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]10.64333333[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]2.24[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]4.66[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]3.34[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]East_Med[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]26.61[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]26.74666667[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.8[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]6.72[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]2.036667[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]8.07[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]5.373333333[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.14[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]2.83[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.29[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]1.2[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]0.566666667[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.81[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.71[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]1.026667[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]Southeast_Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.6[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]0.19[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.08[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.09[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.08[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.58[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]0.083333333[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.5[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.09[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.093333[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]Amerindian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.32[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]0.01[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.72[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.2[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.186667[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.24[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]0.52[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.32[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.15[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.073333[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]1.63[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]1.326666667[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.06[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.11[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.186667[/TD]

[TD="class: xl63, width: 111"]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.39[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 87"]0.723333333[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 70"]0.04[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.07[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 64"]0.07[/TD]

The two components that the West-Sicilians most clearly have more of are the Atlantic and West_Med components. This seems plausibly to be in alignment with the theory of them having Norman admixture, since those two components are very West-European, and are carried in fairly high proportions among the French, Norwegian and Danish populations, from which the Normans are said to be descended. The components in order where the AJs are most clearly higher are: Red_Sea, West_Asian, Baltic, and Eastern_Euro, and they are not much higher in those components than the West_Sicilians. The North_Sea component is marginally higher in the AJs. The largest difference is clearly in the Atlantic component. In light of this, maybe I wouldn't rule out just yet the AJs having a bit of that Khazar admixture - albeit a very small proportion. Here's the source table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdHRPeVdMUDNjOVZETVoxZHpqVG5qNHc&usp=sharing
Click to expand...


Here are my K15 results:


[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Population

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"][/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]North_Sea[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F4F4FF, align: right"]8.44%[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Atlantic[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #E6E6FF, align: right"]19.52%[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Baltic[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F9F9FF, align: right"]4.00%[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Eastern_Euro[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FCFCFF, align: right"]1.99%[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]West_Med[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECECFF, align: right"]14.60%[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #EAEAFF, align: right"]16.32%[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]East_Med[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #DDDDFF, align: right"]26.20%[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F6F6FF, align: right"]6.79%[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Southeast_Asian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FEFEFF, align: right"]0.62%[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Amerindian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FEFEFF, align: right"]0.29%[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FDFDFF, align: right"]1.24%[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff"]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ffffff, align: right"]-[/TD]
[/TD]

I seem to get double the Atlantic component than an average AJ, but I suppose that just like Joey commented above, Gedmatch isn't very reliable. Is it possible that the similarities between AJs and west Sicilians come from a common Canaanite ancestry (the Phoenicians colonized west Sicily and like the Israelites they were Canaanites)?
 
joeyc said:
AJs are actually closer to Eastern Sicilians on the Eurogenes amateur crap.
Click to expand...

LOL, and that's not supposed to be the case? Anyways, In conclusion, I suppose AJs are simply a pre Islamic east Mediterranean/west Asian population, with close proximity to other Jews (specifically Sephardi Jews i.e north African, Greek, Turkish and Syrian Jews, as well as non Sephardi Italian and Greek Jews), as well as other pre Islamic east Mediterranean/west Asian populations such as Cypriots, Maronites, Armenians etc. With the only "European" populations AJs have a proximity to being Sicilians and Maltese who themselves have been influenced by Canaanites (Phoenicians) and Arabs/Berbers.
Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Yeah pretty much that. Eastern Euro Ashkenazis have also a small amount of Turkic ancestry, that Sephardim lack.
 
John Doe said:
LOL, and that's not supposed to be the case? Anyways, In conclusion, I suppose AJs are simply a pre Islamic east Mediterranean/west Asian population, with close proximity to other Jews (specifically Sephardi Jews i.e north African, Greek, Turkish and Syrian Jews, as well as non Sephardi Italian and Greek Jews), as well as other pre Islamic east Mediterranean/west Asian populations such as Cypriots, Maronites, Armenians etc. With the only "European" populations AJs have a proximity to being Sicilians and Maltese who themselves have been influenced by Canaanites (Phoenicians) and Arabs/Berbers.
Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Click to expand...
You are certainly right here. But one shouldn't underestimate the importance of Sicily and Southern Italy during the early Medieval. As I said before, Arab Palermo was at least as large, possibly larger than Byzantium. Add to that other relevant cities such as Syracuse, Messina, Naples, Salerno, Taranto and Trani, and we are definitely talking about the economic and demographic centre of the Mediterranean and all of Europe during the 8th-11th century. Sicilian Jews played a strong economic role (Palermo's Jewish archives have been preserved and are a prime source for research on the early medieval Mediterranean economy). Estimates about their population shares vary, but Jews should have accounted for at least some 5-10% of the urban population. Significant rural Jewish communities are documented in place names, and I have read estimates that up to 50% of the rural Calabrian population may have been Jewish.

A first-hand "census" on Jewish populations is given by Benjamin of Tudela's account of his travel around the Mediterranean in the second half of the 12th century. The figures probably relate to households rather than individuals. Around the Central/ Eastern Mediterranean, the largest Jewish communities he lists are:
  1. Alexandria 3,000
  2. Constantinople: 2,000 Rabbinites, 500 Karaites
  3. Thebes 2,000 (silk-weaving community, partly resettled by Normans into Sicily prior to Benjamin's journey)
  4. Palermo 1,500
  5. Salerno 600
  6. Naples, Otranto, Thessaloniki, Tyros: 500
Other relevant South Italian cities he visited included Capua (300), Taranto (300), Benevento (200), Melfi (200), Messina (200) and Trani (200).

For reference: Rhodes 400, Marseille, Corinth 300, Rome, Jerusalem 200, Lucca 40, Antioch 10, Genoa 2.
http://www.teachittome.com/seforim2/seforim/masaos_binyomin_mitudela_with_english.pdf

All those South Italian Jews must have gone somewhere after their expulsion in the 14th/ 15th century. And the communities were certainly ancient - we are talking about old Greek colonies here.
 
@joeyc: Yes, I didn't see the East-Sicilians in the table there. And yes, the East-Sicilians (ES) do look closer to the AJs than the West-Sicilians - quite similar actually. The largest differences between the AJ and ES in order are the Eastern_Euro, Atlantic, and West_Med components. Some might not find the table worthwhile, but I feel the percentages are worthy of posting anyway:


[TD="class: xl74"]Population[/TD]
[TD="class: xl75"]East_Sicilian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl75"]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[TD="class: xl76"]West_Sicilian[/TD]

[TD="class: xl71"]North_Sea[/TD]
[TD="class: xl72, align: right"]9.75[/TD]
[TD="class: xl72, align: right"]9.89[/TD]
[TD="class: xl73, align: right"]9.763333333[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 127"]Atlantic[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 84, align: right"]13.27[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 73, align: right"]10.7[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 89, align: right"]18.32[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 127"]Baltic[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 84, align: right"]6.393333333[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 73, align: right"]6.74[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 89, align: right"]4.696666667[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 127"]Eastern_Euro[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 84, align: right"]2.26[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 73, align: right"]5.17[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 89, align: right"]3.27[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 127"]West_Med[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 84, align: right"]17.35666667[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 73, align: right"]14.82[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 89, align: right"]17.75666667[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 127"]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 84, align: right"]14.43[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 73, align: right"]13.05[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 89, align: right"]10.64333333[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 127"]East_Med[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 84, align: right"]26.94333333[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 73, align: right"]26.61[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 89, align: right"]26.74666667[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 127"]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 84, align: right"]6.763333333[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 73, align: right"]8.07[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 89, align: right"]5.373333333[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 127"]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 84, align: right"]0.52[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 73, align: right"]1.2[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 89, align: right"]0.566666667[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 127"]Southeast_Asian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 84, align: right"]0.03[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 73, align: right"]0.6[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 89, align: right"]0.19[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 127"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 84, align: right"]0.003333333[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 73, align: right"]0.58[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 89, align: right"]0.083333333[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 127"]Amerindian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 84, align: right"]0.063333333[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 73, align: right"]0.32[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 89, align: right"]0.01[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 127"]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 84, align: right"]0.25[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 73, align: right"]0.24[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 89, align: right"]0.52[/TD]

[TD="class: xl66, width: 127"]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 84, align: right"]1.596666667[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, width: 73, align: right"]1.63[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67, width: 89, align: right"]1.326666667[/TD]

[TD="class: xl68, width: 127"]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[TD="class: xl69, width: 84, align: right"]0.36[/TD]
[TD="class: xl69, width: 73, align: right"]0.39[/TD]
[TD="class: xl70, width: 89, align: right"]0.723333333[/TD]
 
FrankN said:
You are certainly right here. But one shouldn't underestimate the importance of Sicily and Southern Italy during the early Medieval. As I said before, Arab Palermo was at least as large, possibly larger than Byzantium. Add to that other relevant cities such as Syracuse, Messina, Naples, Salerno, Taranto and Trani, and we are definitely talking about the economic and demographic centre of the Mediterranean and all of Europe during the 8th-11th century. Sicilian Jews played a strong economic role (Palermo's Jewish archives have been preserved and are a prime source for research on the early medieval Mediterranean economy). Estimates about their population shares vary, but Jews should have accounted for at least some 5-10% of the urban population. Significant rural Jewish communities are documented in place names, and I have read estimates that up to 50% of the rural Calabrian population may have been Jewish.

A first-hand "census" on Jewish populations is given by Benjamin of Tudela's account of his travel around the Mediterranean in the second half of the 12th century. The figures probably relate to households rather than individuals. Around the Central/ Eastern Mediterranean, the largest Jewish communities he lists are:
  1. Alexandria 3,000
  2. Constantinople: 2,000 Rabbinites, 500 Karaites
  3. Thebes 2,000 (silk-weaving community, partly resettled by Normans into Sicily prior to Benjamin's journey)
  4. Palermo 1,500
  5. Salerno 600
  6. Naples, Otranto, Thessaloniki, Tyros: 500
Other relevant South Italian cities he visited included Capua (300), Taranto (300), Benevento (200), Melfi (200), Messina (200) and Trani (200).

For reference: Rhodes 400, Marseille, Corinth 300, Rome, Jerusalem 200, Lucca 40, Antioch 10, Genoa 2.
http://www.teachittome.com/seforim2/seforim/masaos_binyomin_mitudela_with_english.pdf

All those South Italian Jews must have gone somewhere after their expulsion in the 14th/ 15th century. And the communities were certainly ancient - we are talking about old Greek colonies here.
Click to expand...

Most likely only man of the house was counted. Number for Alexandria might mean 3,000 families, times 5 members per family (at least), can give 15,000 Jews altogether.
 
John Doe said:
Here are my K15 results:



[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]Population

[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]Diff. AJ
[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]North_Sea

[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F4F4FF, align: right"]8.44%

[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F4F4FF, align: right"] -1.55

[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]Atlantic
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #E6E6FF, align: right"]19.52%
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #E6E6FF, align: right"]+9.52
[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]Baltic
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F9F9FF, align: right"]4.00%
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F9F9FF, align: right"] -2.74

[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]Eastern_Euro
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FCFCFF, align: right"]1.99%
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F9F9FF, align: right"] -3.18

[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]West_Med
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECECFF, align: right"]14.60%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]+0.18

[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]West_Asian
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #EAEAFF, align: right"]16.32%
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #EAEAFF, align: right"]+3.27

[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]East_Med
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #DDDDFF, align: right"]26.20%
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]+0.19
[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]Red_Sea
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F6F6FF, align: right"]6.79%
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F6F6FF, align: right"] -1.28

[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]South_Asian
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]-
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F6F6FF, align: right"] -1.20

[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]Southeast_Asian
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FEFEFF, align: right"]0.62%
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FEFEFF, align: right"]+0.02
[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]Siberian
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]-
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]-0.58

[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]Amerindian
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]-
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]-0.32

[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]Oceanian
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FEFEFF, align: right"]0.29%
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FEFEFF, align: right"]+0.05
[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]Northeast_African
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FDFDFF, align: right"]1.24%
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FDFDFF, align: right"]-0.39
[/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]Sub-Saharan
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]-
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFFF, align: right"]-0.39

[/TD]
[/TD]

I seem to get double the Atlantic component than an average AJ, but I suppose that just like Joey commented above, Gedmatch isn't very reliable. Is it possible that the similarities between AJs and west Sicilians come from a common Canaanite ancestry (the Phoenicians colonized west Sicily and like the Israelites they were Canaanites)?
Click to expand...
Well, the high Atlantic component is not your only difference to the average AJ. You are also more West Asian, and less North Sea / Baltic / Eastern Euro (see my addition to your table above). That would suggest that you have taken up very little ancestry from Eastern Europe, and some Sephardim ancestry instead.

But even a AJ/ Sephardim mix wouldn't make you that "Atlantic", Sephardim also have just 14% of it. Actually, there aren't many populations that are high on "Atlantic" but at the same time low on "North Sea". The best here is French Basques (45% Atlantic vs. 17% North Sea) - in terms of a relevant, ancient Jewish community that should mean Narbonne.
The "best fit" population, as you probably already have realised, is West Sicilians. But West Sicilians, and even more so French Basques lack the West Asian component and are too Western Mediterranean. So I looked for a population that is high on "West Asian" but at the same time low on "Eastern European" and "Siberian". Best fit here is Georgian Jews. From the three together one can already pretty well emulate your ancestry structure, but they miss an East African & Red Sea component. Yemenite Jews fill the gap perfectly. That's not meaning you have actually Yemenite Jewish ancestry, they should rather compensate for the specifically Jewish element that is missing within French Basques. So here is my result:

[TABLE="width: 507"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 185, bgcolor: yellow"]Population
[/TD]
[TD="width: 82, bgcolor: yellow"]Georgian Jewish
[/TD]
[TD="width: 81, bgcolor: yellow"]West Sicilian
[/TD]
[TD="width: 81, bgcolor: yellow"]Yemenite Jewish
[/TD]
[TD="width: 82, bgcolor: yellow"]French Basque
[/TD]
[TD="width: 82, bgcolor: yellow"]Mix
[/TD]
[TD="width: 80, bgcolor: yellow"]John Doe
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]35.6%
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]26.1%
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]9.1%
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]29.2%
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]100%

[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]North_Sea
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.27
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]9.76
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.27
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]16.85
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]8.30
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]8.44
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Atlantic
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.67
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]18.32
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1.05
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]45.40
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]19.08
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]19.52
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Baltic
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1.63
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]4.70
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.16
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]4.79
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]3.22
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]4.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Eastern_Euro
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.91
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]3.27
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.11
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.82
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.72
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]1.99
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]West_Med
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]6.95
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]17.76
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]4.40
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]25.04
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]14.82
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]14.60
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]West_Asian
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]35.22
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]10.64
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]5.41
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.83
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]16.05
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]16.32
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]East_Med
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]36.66
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]26.75
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]54.11
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.74
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]25.76
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]26.20
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Red_Sea
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]8.06
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]5.37
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]27.46
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.73
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]6.99
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]6.79
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]South_Asian
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.77
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.57
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.48
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.13
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1.22
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]0.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Southeast_Asian
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.17
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.19
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.06
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.28
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.20
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]0.62
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Siberian
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.10
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.08
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.10
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.04
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.08
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]0.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Amerindian
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.16
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.01
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.08
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.03
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.08
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]0.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Oceanian
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.11
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.52
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.18
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.10
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.22
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]0.29
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Northeast_African
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.29
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1.33
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]6.11
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.17
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1.06
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]1.24
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Sub-Saharan
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.04
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.72
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.01
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.04
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.21
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]0.00
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Except for the South Asian component that comes with the Georgian Jews, it fits quite nicely.
Otherwise, you appear to be a living proof of Jewish settlement in Eastern Europe (Galizia) during Khazar times.
 
@FrankN

All Jews were completelly expelled from Southern Italy in the XVI century, including all the half breeds and the converts.

Their descendants would become the Italkim of central and northern Italy. All the Sephardim and Ashkenazim of Italy lived in the North (Rome, Trieste, Livorno, Venice....)

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storia_della_Sicilia_ebraica

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storia_degli_ebrei_in_Italia

AJs are much closer to Eastern Sicilians (Siracusa) than to Western ones (Trapani). Which is funny considering that Siracusa was never occupied by Phoenicians and the Arab influences were quite insignificant.
 
FrankN said:
Well, the high Atlantic component is not your only difference to the average AJ. You are also more West Asian, and less North Sea / Baltic / Eastern Euro (see my addition to your table above). That would suggest that you have taken up very little ancestry from Eastern Europe, and some Sephardim ancestry instead.

But even a AJ/ Sephardim mix wouldn't make you that "Atlantic", Sephardim also have just 14% of it. Actually, there aren't many populations that are high on "Atlantic" but at the same time low on "North Sea". The best here is French Basques (45% Atlantic vs. 17% North Sea) - in terms of a relevant, ancient Jewish community that should mean Narbonne.
The "best fit" population, as you probably already have realised, is West Sicilians. But West Sicilians, and even more so French Basques lack the West Asian component and are too Western Mediterranean. So I looked for a population that is high on "West Asian" but at the same time low on "Eastern European" and "Siberian". Best fit here is Georgian Jews. From the three together one can already pretty well emulate your ancestry structure, but they miss an East African & Red Sea component. Yemenite Jews fill the gap perfectly. That's not meaning you have actually Yemenite Jewish ancestry, they should rather compensate for the specifically Jewish element that is missing within French Basques. So here is my result:

[TABLE="width: 507"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 185, bgcolor: yellow"]Population[/TD]
[TD="width: 82, bgcolor: yellow"]Georgian Jewish[/TD]
[TD="width: 81, bgcolor: yellow"]West Sicilian[/TD]
[TD="width: 81, bgcolor: yellow"]Yemenite Jewish[/TD]
[TD="width: 82, bgcolor: yellow"]French Basque[/TD]
[TD="width: 82, bgcolor: yellow"]Mix[/TD]
[TD="width: 80, bgcolor: yellow"]John Doe[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]35.6%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]26.1%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]9.1%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]29.2%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]100%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]North_Sea[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.27[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]9.76[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.27[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]16.85[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]8.30[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]8.44[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Atlantic[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.67[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]18.32[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1.05[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]45.40[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]19.08[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]19.52[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Baltic[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1.63[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]4.70[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.16[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]4.79[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]3.22[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]4.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Eastern_Euro[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.91[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]3.27[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.11[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.82[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.72[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]1.99[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]West_Med[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]6.95[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]17.76[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]4.40[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]25.04[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]14.82[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]14.60[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]35.22[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]10.64[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]5.41[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.83[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]16.05[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]16.32[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]East_Med[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]36.66[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]26.75[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]54.11[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.74[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]25.76[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]26.20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]8.06[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]5.37[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]27.46[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.73[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]6.99[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]6.79[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]2.77[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.57[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.48[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.13[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1.22[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]0.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Southeast_Asian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.17[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.19[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.06[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.28[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.20[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]0.62[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.10[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.08[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.10[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.04[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.08[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]0.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Amerindian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.16[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.01[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.08[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.03[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.08[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]0.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.11[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.52[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.18[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.10[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.22[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]0.29[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.29[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1.33[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]6.11[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.17[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]1.06[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]1.24[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.04[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.72[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.01[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.04[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent, align: right"]0.21[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFFCC, align: right"]0.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Except for the South Asian component that comes with the Georgian Jews, it fits quite nicely.
Otherwise, you appear to be a living proof of Jewish settlement in Eastern Europe (Galizia) during Khazar times.
Click to expand...

My family does have a tradition that AJs descend from Sephardis who came to Poland after the expulsion, my mum is indeed darker than my biological dad (my mum looks Mediterranean, she was mistaken for a local in Italy, my biological dad was fair, dark blonde, green/blue eyes, I got the fairness from him, I'm dark blonde, green eyed and fair skinned, I was mistaken for an Anglo-German).

As for the French Basque, well look at my K15 results:

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 East_Med 26.2
2 Atlantic 19.52
3 West_Asian 16.32
4 West_Med 14.6
5 North_Sea 8.44
6 Red_Sea 6.79
7 Baltic 4
8 Eastern_Euro 1.99
9 Northeast_African 1.24
10 Southeast_Asian 0.62
11 Oceanian 0.29


Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Ashkenazi 9.1
2 Sephardic_Jewish 9.48
3 Tuscan 10.37
4 Greek 10.57
5 North_Italian 16.43
6 Bulgarian 16.92
7 Cyprian 17.15
8 Turkish 18.23
9 Romanian 18.75
10 Lebanese_Muslim 19.17
11 Syrian 20.2
12 Serbian 21.68
13 Spanish_Andalucia 22.16
14 Spanish_Extremadura 22.31
15 Spanish_Murcia 22.54
16 Jordanian 23.15
17 Portuguese 23.16
18 Samaritan 23.47
19 Spanish_Valencia 23.63
20 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 23.85


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 64.8% Lebanese_Muslim + 35.2% French_Basque @ 2.51
2 57.8% Lebanese_Muslim + 42.2% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.25
3 55.9% Lebanese_Muslim + 44.1% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.28
4 51.9% Assyrian + 48.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.35
5 55.3% Lebanese_Muslim + 44.7% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.43
6 53.7% Lebanese_Muslim + 46.3% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.48
7 59.4% Lebanese_Muslim + 40.6% Southwest_French @ 3.52
8 52.3% Spanish_Andalucia + 47.7% Assyrian @ 3.54
9 50% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 50% Assyrian @ 3.58
10 50.6% Spanish_Valencia + 49.4% Assyrian @ 3.72
11 59.3% Assyrian + 40.7% French_Basque @ 3.81
12 58.6% Lebanese_Muslim + 41.4% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4
13 51.9% Spanish_Murcia + 48.1% Assyrian @ 4.38
14 54.2% Lebanese_Muslim + 45.8% Spanish_Murcia @ 4.4
15 55.7% Lebanese_Muslim + 44.3% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 4.43
16 53.5% Assyrian + 46.5% Southwest_French @ 4.44
17 56% Lebanese_Muslim + 44% Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.47
18 63.8% Syrian + 36.2% French_Basque @ 4.5
19 52.7% Assyrian + 47.3% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.69
20 50.4% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon + 49.6% Assyrian @ 4.71


As for the Khazar admixture, maybe, but that still wouldn't explain so much Atlantic admixture. Also I highly doubt I have Yemenite or even Georgian Jewish ancestry, in the case of the former, I'd expect much more red sea and a much closer proximity to Palestinians, Jordanians, Bedouins and Saudis, with Yemenite Jews being Judaised Arabs and all.
 
FrankN said:
You are certainly right here. But one shouldn't underestimate the importance of Sicily and Southern Italy during the early Medieval. As I said before, Arab Palermo was at least as large, possibly larger than Byzantium. Add to that other relevant cities such as Syracuse, Messina, Naples, Salerno, Taranto and Trani, and we are definitely talking about the economic and demographic centre of the Mediterranean and all of Europe during the 8th-11th century. Sicilian Jews played a strong economic role (Palermo's Jewish archives have been preserved and are a prime source for research on the early medieval Mediterranean economy). Estimates about their population shares vary, but Jews should have accounted for at least some 5-10% of the urban population. Significant rural Jewish communities are documented in place names, and I have read estimates that up to 50% of the rural Calabrian population may have been Jewish.

A first-hand "census" on Jewish populations is given by Benjamin of Tudela's account of his travel around the Mediterranean in the second half of the 12th century. The figures probably relate to households rather than individuals. Around the Central/ Eastern Mediterranean, the largest Jewish communities he lists are:
  1. Alexandria 3,000
  2. Constantinople: 2,000 Rabbinites, 500 Karaites
  3. Thebes 2,000 (silk-weaving community, partly resettled by Normans into Sicily prior to Benjamin's journey)
  4. Palermo 1,500
  5. Salerno 600
  6. Naples, Otranto, Thessaloniki, Tyros: 500
Other relevant South Italian cities he visited included Capua (300), Taranto (300), Benevento (200), Melfi (200), Messina (200) and Trani (200).

For reference: Rhodes 400, Marseille, Corinth 300, Rome, Jerusalem 200, Lucca 40, Antioch 10, Genoa 2.
http://www.teachittome.com/seforim2/seforim/masaos_binyomin_mitudela_with_english.pdf

All those South Italian Jews must have gone somewhere after their expulsion in the 14th/ 15th century. And the communities were certainly ancient - we are talking about old Greek colonies here.
Click to expand...

I suppose you have a point, however Behar's plot still shows AJs in a gap, with Cypriots and south Italians on the left and Armenians on the right.
 
joeyc said:
@FrankN

All Jews were completelly expelled from Southern Italy in the XVI century, including all the half breeds and the converts.

Their descendants would become the Italkim of central and northern Italy. All the Sephardim and Ashkenazim of Italy lived in the North (Rome, Trieste, Livorno, Venice....)

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storia_della_Sicilia_ebraica

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storia_degli_ebrei_in_Italia

AJs are much closer to Eastern Sicilians (Siracusa) than to Western ones (Trapani). Which is funny considering that Siracusa was never occupied by Phoenicians and the Arab influences were quite insignificant.
Click to expand...

Yeah, ironic huh? Go figure, maybe there was Greek admixture after all.
 
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