Just the opposite (R1a, R1b, IE)

[Dov]

What are you guys suggesting? When people living in the steppe encountered forested areas of flooded rivers, they went around it? Maybe they were afraid of bears, lol. The vast Eurasian area which we call steppe also contains smaller ecosystems like forested wetter lands, some marshes and semi deserts. People who lived in this vast Steppe knew all these ecosystems with all the animals and they had names for them. How hard is to understand this?!!!
What happened do you think if folks from the steppe ventured to the northern edge where big northern forest starts? They stopped and never checked it out because they forgot passports or didn't get visas from forest people.

Samara Bend over the north and closer to the forest. There begins the border of the steppe. In this case, only discuss the distribution area of the animal.

 

[Athiudisc]

That's quite boring. I'm waiting yet to see such bears.

I'm sure that could be arranged on your next Russian trip. It's not really a conspiracy of bear-fanciers all lying to make you look silly, you know.

Apologies why? It's to you if you pay attention or not to red alarms. If being one or two even i would dismiss it but being so many something must go wrong with it.

Apologies for doubting you when you were right all along, of course. I see no red alarms. Those you've presented are entirely unconvincing, as I've said. But if you end up being right, you'll end up being right.

 

[Athiudisc]

...the surrounding steppe. With a unique fauna and ecosystem.

Of course. What I don't understand (at the risk of frustrating Goga, who is somewhat rightfully perplexed by our bear obsession) is why the people living in that surrounding steppe wouldn't know of the animals in that unique ecosystem that their territory surrounds, especially when they were already familiar with, for example, bears to their north and south.

 

[Dov]

So, there is nothing special about bears. Bears are not really a big deal when you are seaching for the PIE URHEIMAT, which was actually on the Iranian Plateau.

Early PIE flora & fauna is actually very similar to the Zagros Mountains/Iranian Plateau. Iranian Plateau has everything, from the steppes to very high mountains. There are rivers, high mountains, lakes, forests, steppes, eagles, falcons, all kind of mammals (bear, fox, wolf, Caspian tiger (extinct) , Asiatic lion (extinct), etc.) all kinds of EurAsian plants...

There's no elk (*h₄ólk̑is)


and beaver (*bʰébʰrus)


Moreover, the beavers were probably sacred and cult animals of Indo-Europeans.

129. 'She is clothed with garments of beaver, Ardvi Sura Anahita; with the skin of thirty beavers of those that bear four young ones, that are the finest kind of beavers; for the skin of the beaver that lives in water is the finest-colored of all skins, and when worked at the right time it shines to the eye with full sheen of silver and gold. (c) Avesta

Ardvi Sura Anahita (Godess from Avesta) probably has avatar of Volga river.

 

[Dov]

Of course. What I don't understand (at the risk of frustrating Goga, who is somewhat rightfully perplexed by our bear obsession) is why the people living in that surrounding steppe wouldn't know of the animals in that unique ecosystem that their territory surrounds, especially when they were already familiar with, for example, bears to their north and south.

The Yamna Culture has been enormous over a large area. Already possibly had ethnic groups, heterogeneous, and possibly with different dialects. All the same, the original genesis of the Indo-Europeans, as well as their lexicon, need try found in older cultures, I think. Trying not to touch the discussions R1a / R1b.

 

[Goga]

There's no elk(*h₄ólk̑is)
View attachment 7779
and beaver(*bʰébʰrus)
View attachment 7781

Moreover, the beavers were probably sacred and cult animals of Indo-Europeans.

129. 'She is clothed with garments of beaver, Ardvi Sura Anahita; with the skin of thirty beavers of those that bear four young ones, that are the finest kind of beavers; for the skin of the beaver that lives in water is the finest-colored of all skins, and when worked at the right time it shines to the eye with full sheen of silver and gold. (c) Avesta

Ardvi Sura Anahita (Godess from Avesta) probably has avatar Volga river.

Nice!


What is special about elks? What have they to do with PIE? Elks/reindeers are part of the 'deer' species. An elk is just more addapted to a colder climate. An deer does exist on the Iranian Plateau and Zagros Mountains (Kurdistan). Also, the Iranian Plateau borders Central Asia and China. Elks do exist in Central Asia and China. So why do you think that 'elks' are only exclusive to Volga? Btw, 'elk' in Kurdish (West Iranian) has a different name: "Şivira kedî" https://ku.wikipedia.org/wiki/Şivira_kedî



About the 'beaver'.

There are 3 possibilities.

a) it has been wrongly translated. Maybe they meant 'tiger' since it has been called almost the same.
b) beavers existed on the Iranian Plateau, but they are extinct now. Like this article is suggesting. : http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/beaver-castor-fiber-l

and according this source: "Family Castoridae: beaver. Once resident in Iran, as recently as the Neolithic, it has reentered the country from the Caucasus."

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/mammals-01-iran-afghanistan-ca


or


c) remember that Zoroastrian Avesta was written by the East Iranian folks. They were already nowhere near to the PIE roots (Yamnaya). And especially NOTHING to do with Slavs. According the East Iranian folks, their "ARYAN'' URHEIMAT was somewhere on the Iranian Plateau. They mention even the area/place in their book.

I doubt Avesta has anything to do with Volga. Avesta was actually very close and similar to the Mesopotamia. Those who wrote Avesta were actually already different from the PIE source.

East Iranian folks lived around BMAC. BMAC borders Central Asia and even China. Why is it not possible that they were know with this beaver mammal from their neighbouring areas like Central Asia and China.


There was already 2000 years of space and time between those East Iranian who wrote Avesta and late PIE from Maykop/Yamnaya.

Actually there is less of time and space between East Iranians of BMAC who wrote Avesta and Iranians who lived in the tenth century.

Remember that the 'beaver testicles' were used as medicine in Iran already during in the tenth century. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S037887410200377X


Do you think those Iranians who used 'beaver testicles' as medicine came from Volga? Same can be explained by East Iranian from BMAC. Has absolutely nothing to do with Volga.

Beaver is native all over the northern part of Eurasia, Central Asia up to China. And those regions are neighboring ancient BMAC where East Iranian folks were from.



I mean peacock is very sacred in my native (current) West Iranian religion. And nowadays peacock is also not really native to Kurdistan. Peacock is native to Gedrosia/India. That doesn;t mean that my religion is from India. My religion (the Yezidism) is actually native to the Mesopotamia.




+ There were 2 developments of PIE. Ancient one around Leyla-Tepe that migrated into Maykop and the later one was around Maykop/Yamnaya. It is possible that the beaver was adopted into the Iranian vocabulary later from Central Asia or maybe from the Caucasus, though. Or maybe it is from the NEOLITHIC times...

 

[Dov]

Nice!

b) beavers existed on the Iranian Plateau, but they are extinct now. Like this article is suggesting. : http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/beaver-castor-fiber-l

and according this source: "Family Castoridae: beaver. Once resident in Iran, as recently as the Neolithic, it has reentered the country from the Caucasus."

Well, he touched some piece of northern Iran, extending from the Volga in favorable moments of maximum settlement. But is not autochthon there.

I doubt Avesta has anything to do with Volga. Avesta was actually very close and similar to the Mesopotamia. Those who wrote Avesta were actually already different from the PIE source.

Well, some things Avesta point to the Volga. There is nothing surprising:

4. 'All the shores of the sea Vouru-Kasha are boiling over, all the middle of it is boiling over, when she runs down there, when she streams down there, she, Ardvi Sura Anahita, who has a thousand cells and a thousand channels: the extent of each of those cells, of each of those channels is as much as a man can ride in forty days, riding on a good horse. (c) Avesta

Vouru-Kasha mean Caspian Sea
Ardvi Sura Anahita mean Volga
Thousand cells and a thousand channels mean Volga Delta

It is possible that the beaver was adopted into the Iranian vocabulary later from Central Asia or maybe from the Caucasus.

The beaver could not be be adopted from other. This word "beaver" (eng), "bieber" (ger), "bobr" (rus), babhru's (sanskrit) still sounds a similar way from the Britain to India. So, this word was in the lexicon of the original Proto-IE.

 

[berun]

What are you guys suggesting? When people living in the steppe encountered forested areas of flooded rivers, they went around it? Maybe they were afraid of bears, lol. The vast Eurasian area which we call steppe also contains smaller ecosystems like forested wetter lands, some marshes and semi deserts. People who lived in this vast Steppe knew all these ecosystems with all the animals and they had names for them. How hard is to understand this?!!!
What happened do you think if folks from the steppe ventured to the northern edge where big northern forest starts? They stopped and never checked it out because they forgot passports or didn't get visas from forest people.

I can't answer that as I don't know if the Yamnayans were kiked off by their northern neighbours, if they were not able to pay the visas, or if forested areas were not suitable for their economy... the true case is that Yamnaya culture reachs where the Steppe reachs, and in the steppe there aren't bears, squirels, firs and so many (the same for deserts or river forests). Red alarm so.

 

[berun]

I'm sure that could be arranged on your next Russian trip. It's not really a conspiracy of bear-fanciers all lying to make you look silly, you know.

It's the fifth or sixth time that you don't come with a steppe bear but instead you come to secondary discussions or ad hominem attacks even. I suppose that you wasted so much time googling "bear" and "steppe" without results... you can try with *Helew 'juniper' or *Heiwos 'yew', maybe you are more lucky in these cases.

 

[berun]

Of course. What I don't understand (at the risk of frustrating Goga, who is somewhat rightfully perplexed by our bear obsession) is why the people living in that surrounding steppe wouldn't know of the animals in that unique ecosystem that their territory surrounds, especially when they were already familiar with, for example, bears to their north and south.

Do you now that we are speaking about a river bend? (a river quite wide otherwise). Just in the northern limit of the steppes and the Yamnaya culture (one milion square kilometers).




Do you know that Italian has not native words for alpine ibex (stambecco), chamois (camoscio), stoat (ermellino) or marmot (marmotta)? animals living in the Alps of Italy itself? What do you think what would happen to Yamnayans living 300 km south of such river bend about bears and other forest flora and fauna?

 

[Taranis]

The beaver could not be be adopted from other. This word "beaver" (eng), "bieber" (ger), "bobr" (rus), babhru's (sanskrit) still sounds a similar way from the Britain to India. So, this word was in the lexicon of the original Proto-IE.

There's also Latin "fiber" (PIE word-initial *bh- yields *f- in the Italic languages, see also English "brother" versus Latin "frater").

 

[Goga]

Well, some things Avesta point to the Volga. There is nothing surprising:

4. 'All the shores of the sea Vouru-Kasha are boiling over, all the middle of it is boiling over, when she runs down there, when she streams down there, she, Ardvi Sura Anahita, who has a thousand cells and a thousand channels: the extent of each of those cells, of each of those channels is as much as a man can ride in forty days, riding on a good horse. (c) Avesta

Vouru-Kasha mean Caspian Sea
Ardvi Sura Anahita mean Volga
Thousand cells and a thousand channels mean Volga Delta
View attachment 7783

I don't understand what you are trying to say. Beaver thing is not any evidence for anything. As far as I know Zoroastrianism has no links with the 'Volga area' north of the Caspian. But Zoroastrian Avesta written by East Iranian people from BMAC is actually linked to the Mesopotamia. To the Median Magi and the Mesopotamian deities. It has nothing to do with Volga.

I mean Zarathustra was born on the Iranian Plateau, nowhere near of Volga.


Avesta writings have nothing to do with Sanscrit. Sanscrit was used by proto-Vedic folks.


And what has Avesta to do with PIE? Avesta Zoroastrian books were written by late EAST Iranian folks from BMAC. After the Medes ruled the Iranian Plateau and during the Persian rule in Iran. According to their own Avesta writings their original homeland 'Aryana' is on the Iranian Plateau. http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/location.htm


In West Iranian Kurdish language 'beaver' means 'qûndûz', I guess it is a loanword from Turkic. Turkic URHEIMT was familiar with beaver. But this doesn't mean that Kurmanji is from the Altai or something...

 

[Athiudisc]

ad hominem attacks

This is pointless hypocrisy.

 

[LeBrok]

Samara Bend over the north and closer to the forest. There begins the border of the steppe. In this case, only discuss the distribution area of the animal.

Yes, but we are also discussing possibility of steppe dwellers to come in contact with animals of all near by ecosystems. Knowing mobility of steppe people it wasn't a problem. At around 4-3 k BC they started to ride horse and became even more mobile. In this case we can easily assume that they came in contact with all the animals of Central Eurasia of time of Yamnaya and before IE expansion.

 

[LeBrok]

I can't answer that as I don't know if the Yamnayans were kiked off by their northern neighbours, if they were not able to pay the visas, or if forested areas were not suitable for their economy... the true case is that Yamnaya culture reachs where the Steppe reachs, and in the steppe there aren't bears, squirels, firs and so many (the same for deserts or river forests). Red alarm so.

Yes berun, steppe is steppe, bear is a bear, people are people, lead is lead and everything has its right places.

 

[berun]

This is pointless hypocrisy.

I give you allways info and you come with insults. That's a typical reaction from somebody without arguments, only verbal or physical violence is left to shut up the other. I say you that usualy it's a reaction based mainly in fear, fear to the possibility to receive menaces over the own beliefs. Yamnaya's theory is self sustained and has a sense so I understand that people could be confortable with that as somehow i was before, but insulting is a evidence that what i'm exposing is a kind of menace over your beliefs, confort and selfconfidence. So to me you are not ready for scientific debate. Farewell.

 

[Athiudisc]

Oh, please. Again, nothing but hypocrisy. You cite a source, but insist it isn't good when it disagrees with you. You make mention of a paper, but anyone else referencing published works are "calling to papa." And when I get tired of your method of "debate," you accuse me of engaging in it myself.

If insults are "a typical reaction from somebody without arguments," and "insulting is evidence that what I'm exposing is a kind of menace over your beliefs," you lost early in the thread. I was nice enough to assume it was an effect of your poor English, but I was obviously mistaken; it's just your personality. And by your own criteria, you have nothing but fear that you're wrong and an unreadiness for debate.

 

[berun]

I can be much or less defective in english language, but the problem is more deep than that as i used to think that everybody can distingish between insulting and irony. Fine then. Farewell.

 

[berun]

Even if the blogger is not contrary to accept R1b = IE, what he explains is how Yamnaya can't be the source for IE...

None of them belonged to R1a, and it was R1a people who spoke a language ancestral to the satem Indo-European languages, which include the Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages. None of them belonged to R1b1a2a1-L51, and it was R1b-L51 people who spoke a language ancestral to the Germanic and Italo-Celtic languages. So we know that four huge branches of the Indo-European language family were not derived from the people of the Yamna culture.

While the TMRCA (time to most recent common ancestor) for R1b-Z2103 is 7,400–5,600 years, the TMRCA for R1b-L51 is 7,600–5,900 years, so R1b-L51 is older than R1b-Z2103. R1b-L51 existed at the same time that the eastern R1b-Z2103 existed, in some other part of Europe. And of course that other part of Europe was Western Europe. There’s no doubt that R1b-L51 originated in Western Europe, because the highest frequencies of the R1b-L51* paragroup are found in France and Ireland.

To add up to this that CW was R1a as also were the post-Yamnaya steppe cultures

 

[MOESAN]

Yamnaya (East) did not expand westwards, it seems clear enough. But if I'm not wrong it's a "M269 son" and even "L23 son" as L51. We need other Yamnaya Y-haplos. The known Yamnaya ones were maybe overdrown by other "brother" iigneages of R1b (not sure) and surely by R1a bearers close to Corded-Battle Axes? Nothing proving Yamnaya was not I-E at this stage.