Knez Dervan's Serbia and the Ethnogenisis of Balkan Serbs

My paternal side from Carpathians, we are Hutsuls, from where is now southwestern Ukraine and Northern Romania.

Here is more about Boykos, Lemkos, Hutsuls.

Genetics of Carpatho-Rus

"In terms of haplogroup frequencies, the Hutsuls are more like their non-Rusyn neighbors (especially Ukrainians) than the Boykos or Lemkos. Meanwhile, Boykos and Lemkos are most like Romanians and Czechs, and Hutsuls are most like Croatian mainlanders. The Hutsuls are the easternmost Rusyns, living in Hutsulschyna in easternmost Subcarpathian Rus' in Ukraine and in neighboring northernmost Romania."

This is interesting!
Bukovina and Northerneastern Romania have the highest frequencies of I2a dinaric outside Balkan approximately between 30% and 45% .

May I know your kit number in I2a project?
 
I am not sure that map of I2a1 is right.
According to some researches there is no high
I2a1 frequency in area of Dervan's Serbia.
A global analysis of Y-chromosomal haplotype diversity for 23 STR loci"
LEIPZIG n=302
Results (Nevgen predictor) for R1a and I2a1b:
R1а М417/M458 =21.53
R1a Z93/Z284/L664 =3.97
I2-CTS10228 =3.97

Or with subbranches:
R1a М417 =7.94
CТS3402> YP238, YP951, Y2613
CTS8816>YP315, L1280, Y2910
CTS1211>P278.2, YP4278
Z92>Y4459

R1a M458 =13.57
R1a M458 (xL260) =8.60
R1a L260 =4.96

R1a L644 =0.99
L664>S3479
L664>S2894>YP285

R1a Z284 =1.98
Z284>L448>CTS4179
Z284>6842
R1a Z93 =0.99
Z93>Z94>S23592
.
______
I2a Dinaric =3.97
I-CTS10228 (dinaric north) =3.64
I-PH908 (dinaric south) =0.33

"Contemporary paternal genetic landscape of Polish and German populations: from early medieval Slavic expansion to post-World War II resettlements"
Lusatian Sorbs n=123
R1a-M417 =8.13
CTS8816>YP315, L1280
CTS3402>YP951 или Y2613

R1a-M458 =56.91
R-M458 (xL260) =23.57
R-L260 =33.33
______
R1b-M269 =9.75
R-L48 =4.06
R-P312 =3.25
R-L23 =1.62
R-U106 =0.81
______
I1-M253 =9.75
I-M253 =6.50
I-L22 =2.43
I-M91 =0.81
______
E1b-V13 =4.87
______
I2-CTS10228 (Dinaric North) =2.43
______
G2a-P15 =2.43
______
J2a-M410 =1.62
______
I2-M223 =1.62
______
J2b-M241 =0.81
______
J1-M267 =0.81
______
I2c2 =0.81


"Toward Male Individualization with Rapidly Mutating Y-Chromosomal Short Tandem Repeats"
LEIPZIG n=215
R1a 21.4%
I2a1b 3.72% (din north 2.325%: din south 1.39%)

The highest frequencies of I2a dinaric among West Slavs are in Central Bohemia (Czech Valley)
"Evaluation of 14 Ychromosomal Short TandemRepeat Haplotype with Focuson DYS449, DYS456, andDYS458: Czech Population Sample"
DNA samples were obtained from 50 unrelated healthy Czech Caucasian male participants living in or around Prague (Czech Republic)
R1b2244.0%
I2a din816.0%;449<3136.00%449=3136.00%449>3124.0%
R1a714.0%
I136.0%
I1/G2a12.0%
J248.0%
N1c12.0%
H1a M82/J2a112.0%
H1a M82 74%12.0%
I2a2a M22324.0%

Note: because of low number STR markers some predictions might not be accurate.

"Y-Chromosomal Variation in the Czech Republic"
Klatovy I2a-P37 14.6% and Pisek I2a-P37 9.2%


According to Genebaze . cz
Zlin and Olomouc regions have high frequency of I2a dinaric.
 
This is interesting!
Bukovina and Northerneastern Romania have the highest frequencies of I2a dinaric outside Balkan approximately between 30% and 45% .

May I know your kit number in I2a project?


Here is my Gedmatch Oracles


Eurogenes K15 Oracles- Kingslav


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance


1 80.7% Estonian + 19.3% Greek_Thessaly @ 5.72
2 87.1% Estonian + 12.9% Libyan_Jewish @ 5.8
3 88.7% Estonian + 11.3% Samaritan @ 5.88
4 89% Estonian + 11% Lebanese_Christian @ 5.91
5 70.9% Ukrainian_Lviv + 29.1% Estonian @ 5.94
6 87.9% Estonian + 12.1% Cyprian @ 5.95
7 89% Estonian + 11% Lebanese_Druze @ 5.99
8 77.4% Ukrainian + 22.6% Estonian @ 6.06
9 87% Estonian + 13% Algerian_Jewish @ 6.14
10 86.7% Estonian + 13.3% Italian_Jewish @ 6.15
11 84.7% Estonian + 15.3% Central_Greek @ 6.17
12 85.9% Estonian + 14.1% South_Italian @ 6.18
13 84.2% Estonian + 15.8% Ashkenazi @ 6.18
14 97.9% Ukrainian + 2.1% Yemenite_Jewish @ 6.21
15 85.1% Estonian + 14.9% East_Sicilian @ 6.23
16 89% Estonian + 11% Palestinian @ 6.23
17 89.6% Ukrainian + 10.4% Lithuanian @ 6.26
18 88.8% Estonian + 11.2% Jordanian @ 6.27
19 98.3% Ukrainian + 1.7% Lebanese_Druze @ 6.28
20 84.1% Ukrainian_Lviv + 15.9% Lithuanian @ 6.29


Dodecad K12b Oracle- Kingslav


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance


1 62.7% Hungarians + 37.3% Russian @ 1.4
2 81.3% Mixed_Slav + 18.7% Andalucia @ 1.52
3 73.6% Russian_B + 26.4% Cataluna @ 1.61
4 75.2% Hungarians + 24.8% Finnish @ 1.62
5 74.1% Hungarians + 25.9% Lithuanians @ 1.64
6 74.8% Russian + 25.2% Baleares @ 1.65
7 79.4% Mixed_Slav + 20.6% Baleares @ 1.67
8 74.5% Russian_B + 25.5% Spaniards @ 1.7
9 57.2% Ukranians + 42.8% German @ 1.73
10 71.1% Hungarians + 28.9% Lithuanian @ 1.73
11 56.6% Hungarians + 43.4% Mixed_Slav @ 1.74
12 75.6% Russian_B + 24.4% Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.75
13 68.2% Ukranians + 31.8% Mixed_Germanic @ 1.79
14 74% Hungarians + 26% FIN30 @ 1.8
15 80.2% Mixed_Slav + 19.8% Spaniards @ 1.81
16 66% Russian_B + 34% French @ 1.82
17 79.4% Mixed_Slav + 20.6% Extremadura @ 1.83
18 83.7% Russian + 16.3% Sardinian @ 1.84
19 74% Russian + 26% North_Italian @ 1.88
20 75.5% Russian_B + 24.5% Valencia @ 1.88


PuntDNAL K15 Oracle- Kingslav


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance


1 52.2% Belarusian + 47.8% Austrian @ 1.47
2 79.8% Belarusian + 20.2% Italian @ 1.51
3 50.9% Belarusian + 49.1% Slovenian @ 1.51
4 66.7% Lithuanian + 33.3% Macedonian @ 1.59
5 68.8% Lithuanian + 31.2% Bulgarian @ 1.6
6 72.1% Lithuanian + 27.9% Italian @ 1.6
7 68.2% Lithuanian + 31.8% Romanian @ 1.61
8 76.7% Belarusian + 23.3% Romanian @ 1.61
9 69.2% Belarusian + 30.8% Serbian @ 1.61
10 78.5% Belarusian + 21.5% Montenegrin @ 1.65
11 54.5% Belarusian + 45.5% Hungarian @ 1.67
12 75.4% Lithuanian + 24.6% Albanian @ 1.67
13 59.8% Slovenian + 40.2% Lithuanian @ 1.68
14 56.2% Hungarian + 43.8% Lithuanian @ 1.68
15 59.4% Lithuanian + 40.6% Serbian @ 1.69
16 70.3% Lithuanian + 29.7% Montenegrin @ 1.69
17 83.1% Belarusian + 16.9% Tuscan @ 1.7
18 82.5% Belarusian + 17.5% Albanian @ 1.72
19 77.2% Belarusian + 22.8% Bulgarian @ 1.74
20 76.2% Lithuanian + 23.8% Tuscan @ 1.74
 
Thank you Kingslav!
I also belong to I2a dinaric. Unfortunately I have not done autosomal test yet.
Do you know your deeper SNP of I2a dinaric?
 
Here is my K36
and also comparison with 54 other Polish samples.


Population- K36 Kingslav


Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 0.61 *****
Central_African -
Central_Euro 10.84
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 5.37 *****
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 26.61
East_Med 0.81 *****
Eastern_Euro 16.42
Fennoscandian 11.57
French 6.04
Iberian 7.39 *****
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 1.11 *****
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 2.32
North_Caucasian 3.48 *****
North_Sea 7.28
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy 0.09 *****
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African 0.05 *****
West_Caucasian -
West_Med -



vs Average results of 54 Polish samples in Eurogenes K36 calculator:


Admixture present in x/54 Poles (% range) - avg. %


1) East_Central_Euro 54/54 (17.83 - 33.17) - 24.38
2) Eastern_Euro 54/54 (9.24 - 22.15) - 16.05
3) Fennoscandian 54/54 (6.02 - 16.44) - 12.10
4) North_Sea 54/54 (2.74 - 15.89) - 9.73
5) Central_Euro 54/54 (4.92 - 12.94) - 9.31
6) North_Atlantic 54/54 (0.64 - 12.06) - 6.90
7) East_Balkan 53/54 (1.23 - 11.54) - 6.24 ***** Me 5.37 *****


8) Iberian 53/54 (0.06 - 9.0) - 4.57 ***** Me 7.39 *****
9) French 52/54 (1.29 - 7.96) - 4.07
10) Italian 43/54 (0.07 - 11.47) - 3.07 ***** Me 1.11 *****
11) Basque 40/54 (0.14 - 3.5) - 1.13 ***** Me 0.61 *****
12) Volga-Ural 38/54 (0.12 - 4.63) - 1.03
13) North_Caucasian 21/54 (0.05 - 5.73) - 0.60 ***** Me 3.48 *****


14) West_Med 14/54 (0.1 - 2.35) - 0.21
15) West_Caucasian 9/54 (0.19 - 2.68) - 0.21
16) Armenian 8/54 (0.07 - 3.19) - 0.15
17) East_Med 1/54 (3.77) - 0.07 ***** Me 0.81 *****
18) South_Central_Asian 4/54 (0.26 - 1.11) - 0.05
19) Amerindian 5/54 (0.13 - 1.17) - 0.05
20) Oceanian 4/54 (0.06 - 0.67) - 0.02
21) Arabian 1/54 (1.04) - 0.02
22) West_African 2/54 (0.3 - 0.38) - 0.01 ***** Me 0.05 *****
23) Northeast_African 1/54 (0.24) - 0.004


24) Siberian 0/54 - 0.00
25) East_Asian 0/54 - 0.00
26) East_Central_Asian 0/54 - 0.00
27) Indo-Chinese 0/54 - 0.00
28) South_Chinese 0/54 - 0.00
29) South_Asian 0/54 - 0.00
30) Malayan 0/54 - 0.00
31) Near_Eastern 0/54 - 0.00
32) North_African 0/54 - 0.00
33) East_African 0/54 - 0.00
34) Omotic 0/54 - 0.00
35) Central_African 0/54 - 0.00
36) Pygmy 0/54 - 0.00 ***** Me 0.09 *****
 
Thank you Kingslav!
I also belong to I2a dinaric. Unfortunately I have not done autosomal test yet.
Do you know your deeper SNP of I2a dinaric?

I2a1b2-L621
 
Here's my K36 map. Post yours if you can:
attachment.php

I cant see map
 
Original Serbs were Jatts, they came from India.
Did you come here to make an arss of yourself? Stupidities like this you can post on your facebook or your own website.

In reality it is true that they can share common ancestry but the Gets (Getae) the noblest of the Thracians or Jats as they are known in India did not came from India,but rather opposite.Similarities of their names were noted long time ago and for the Jats Scythian origin is determined,this is proven by genetics now.
The Massagetae from written sources and the Dahae (Dacians) that lived near Indo-Aryans were noted long ago,the fact that they speak Indo-Iranian languages today doesn't mean that's their original origin.

Jat People Genetics

A recent study of the people of Indian Punjab, where about 40% or more of the population are Jat people, strongly shows that the Jat people are Indo-Scythians.[102] The study involved a genealogical DNA test which examined single nucleotide polymorphisms (mutations in a single DNA "letter") on the Y chromosome (which occurs only in males). Jats share many common haplotypes with Ukrainian people, Germanic people, Slavic people, Baltic peoples, Iranian people, and Central Asian groups.[103] This strongly indicates they originate from near or in Ukraine.[104] It found Jat people share only two haplotypes, one of which is also shared with the population of present-day Turkish people, and have few matches with neighbouring Pakistani populations.[105] This haplotype shared between the two Jat groups may be part of an Indo-Aryan (or Indo-European people) genetic contribution to these populations, where as the haplotypes shared with other Eurasian populations is due to the strong DNA contributions of Indo-European Scythians (Saka, Massagetae) and White Huns
The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) female DNA, Jats contain haplogroups typical of Northern India, Pakistan, and West Asia. This indicates that for the female mtDNA, there is very little connection with Central Asian and northwest European populations, even though Jats share many Y-SNP markers with these populations. Therefore, this DNA Study proves that there has been male DNA into the Jat people from Ukrainian Scythians (Saka, Massagetae) and White Huns.[107]
The highlighted DNA Study suggests that there has been male DNA into the Jat people from Ukrainian Scythians (Saka, Massagetae) and White Huns

Old name of the Sclavenes(Slavs) is Gets,the truth is different,despite we like to turn it upsite down.
 

According to Serbian legend and the Byzantine Chronicles, the Serbs left an area known as "White Serbia"

White Serba is not mentioned anywhere in writing, so it's a lie


This archon was said to be the son of Knez Dervan who ruled over an area of East Germany in the area which is today inhabited by Sorbs

Sorbs have nothing to do with Balkan Serbs, so Dervan historically can only be related with Sorbs

Could the elevated frequency of I2a1 in southeast Germany and western Czech Republic be the result of a Serbian presence in the dark ages? It is quite evident that there is an elevated frequency of I2a1 in the areas ascribed in Byzantine Chronicles as the location from which Serbs migrated to the Balkans.

We do not look in Europe where is more or less I2a, we look where is source of the same.
In Germany is certainly not a source of I2a which have Balkan peoples.
 
The Serbian homeland before the migration to "White Serbia" was known as Boyka. There is a theory that the Boykos are the remnants of the Serbs before their western migration to East Germany, while the Hutsuls are the remnants of the Croats before they began their migration westward. Have you done this Eurogenes K36 map before using your gedmatch results? I would be curious to see what results you get. The link you can use to tabulate your results is below as is my map.

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

View attachment 8958

The Serbian homeland before the migration to "White Serbia" was known as Boyka.

There is no historical record about it
 
What Leka is presenting is a theory, while what I am presenting is history from a Byzantine historical chronicle which stated that the Serbs arrived from "White Serbia". What I am trying to say is this validated by an elevated frequency of I2a1 in their supposed homeland.


White Serbia is not mentioned anywhere. Serbian history is not based on truth and that's why leads to confusion.
 
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Serbian history is not based on truth and that's why leads to confusion.
This sentence is very offensive and it is wrong. But if you extend view you can see some similarities between Serbian history, Croatian history, Bulgarian history, Hungarian history, and many other European nations history... What Croatian scientist Dr Dzino noticed that different people (nations) feed on similar myths in their own versions. Unfortunately records, especially in further past, are not reliable. They are transcripts of transcripts or oral stories with many changes and additions. You can add myths, biased interpreters etc. And from the time of building of nations (19th century) politics has taken the lead. Here at Eupedia we are trying to find some reliable parameters based on the research of genetic genealogy, it's a giant jigsaw puzzle where we have a few parts for now.
Sorbs have nothing to do with Balkan Serbs, so Dervan historically can only be related with Sorbs
Yes. And on another thread already I wrote about it. Dervan's Serbia was country of Lusatuian Sorbs not Balkan Serbs. And Lusatian Sorbs have different genetics. Practically whole thread is on the wrong grounds.
 
This sentence is very offensive and it is wrong. But if you extend view you can see some similarities between Serbian history, Croatian history, Bulgarian history, Hungarian history, and many other European nations history... What Croatian scientist Dr Dzino noticed that different people (nations) feed on similar myths in their own versions. Unfortunately records, especially in further past, are not reliable. They are transcripts of transcripts or oral stories with many changes and additions. You can add myths, biased interpreters etc. And from the time of building of nations (19th century) politics has taken the lead. Here at Eupedia we are trying to find some reliable parameters based on the research of genetic genealogy, it's a giant jigsaw puzzle where we have a few parts for now. Yes. And on another thread already I wrote about it. Dervan's Serbia was country of Lusatuian Sorbs not Balkan Serbs. And Lusatian Sorbs have different genetics. Practically whole thread is on the wrong grounds.

Serbian wiki...White Serbia

https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Бела_Србија

If White Serbia does not exist in writing then why in Serbia claim that she exists...
 
Serbian wiki...White Serbia

https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Бела_Србија

If White Serbia does not exist in writing then why in Serbia claim that she exists...

If you read Pjanovic-Lukovic Olga, Sorbonne PhD, yes, she was linguist, she claims that Bosnia and Slavonia were White Serbia, but she is not Serbian science mainstream.

In Serbia you will never heard "White Serbs" it does not exists in national memory.

Someone can find in Serbia stories and fair tales about Roman period in the Balkans but nowhere and nothing about White Serbs.
 
If you read Pjanovic-Lukovic Olga, Sorbonne PhD, yes, she was linguist, she claims that Bosnia and Slavonia were White Serbia, but she is not Serbian science mainstream.

In Serbia you will never heard "White Serbs" it does not exists in national memory.

Someone can find in Serbia stories and fair tales about Roman period in the Balkans but nowhere and nothing about White Serbs.

Emperor Constantine Porphyrogenitus said one testimony, which is undoubtedly the Serbo-Croatian origin, and consists in this: that Croats came to the south from White Croatia, and Serbs from White Serbia, Bojke,

It was written by Vladimir Ćorović (1885-1941) ..Was a leading 20th-century Serbian historian, since 1919 he has been a professor at the Faculty of Philosophy of the University of Belgrade. For the academic of the Serbian Royal Academy (later SANU) was elected in 1922.

https://www.rastko.rs/rastko-bl/istorija/corovic/istorija/1_3_l.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Ćorović


There is no written document that mentione White Serbia, and for White Serbia in Bosnia I hear for the first time.
 
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There is no written document that mentione White Serbia, and for White Serbia in Bosnia I hear for the first time.

If you like these sources as: Olga Lukovic Pjanic (PhD Sorbonne) "Serbs, the people the oldest" (autochthonous school).

Unfortunately Serbs didn't have good own historians, mostly Serbian history wrote researchers who were not Serbs, what is interesting good Serbian historians mostly dealt with other topics (no national history).

Croats worked much harder on Croatian history.

Two schools shaped Serbian history Slavic school and German school. Third is autochthonous school which has no recognition.

Slavic school tends to see Serbs as part of Slavic group of nations, there were a lot of Slavic historians who explored Serbian history, from the Czechs to the Russians.

Problem is always when someone speaks about history - politics. Where the facts end in favor of politics.

It is a very broad topic, not for this thread.

I don't know where Olga Lukovic-Pjanic found sources about White Serbs, but they are not Serbian.

What is fact is:
Serbs never call themselves White Serbs, it does not exist in national memory, no one story, fair tale, myth, folk poetry, nothing.
 
Good day everyone, I've been reading lately most of the posts related to I2a haplogroups and i have noticed that a lot of peoples are posting their theories based on weak wikipedia knowledge . Moreover, I am surprised that theory of the great slaves migration to Balkan is still used (very often here) even though it is proven to be wrong. Some of the countries already removed this theory from their curriculum such as Italy, Spain, Netherlands following the modern science and disregarding theories without proof. Yet Serbs and Croats are still referring to falls history made by Austro-Hungerians in 2nd half of 19th century with one purpose: to colonize Balkan, providing others the chance to steal their heritage, and i am not talking only about common people but historians as well. At least it is proven that there was no "great migration" but more likely the opposite. I've seen so many bickering between Serbs and Croats about the origin, neglecting the fact that the Illyrians, our ancestors, were settled in western Balkan long time before so-called the great migration. If someone want to make some conclusion about the origin, it is not easy, and all the DNA data needs to be read in conjunction with the true history facts in order to make clear picture. Wikipedia is unreliable so i strongly recommend not to be used. I've seen many times guys taking some sentences from the books which they have never read completely out of the context. This is the correct way to confuse your self and post complete nonsense.
 
Good day everyone, I've been reading lately most of the posts related to I2a haplogroups and i have noticed that a lot of peoples are posting their theories based on weak wikipedia knowledge . Moreover, I am surprised that theory of the great slaves migration to Balkan is still used (very often here) even though it is proven to be wrong. Some of the countries already removed this theory from their curriculum such as Italy, Spain, Netherlands following the modern science and disregarding theories without proof. Yet Serbs and Croats are still referring to falls history made by Austro-Hungerians in 2nd half of 19th century with one purpose: to colonize Balkan, providing others the chance to steal their heritage, and i am not talking only about common people but historians as well. At least it is proven that there was no "great migration" but more likely the opposite. I've seen so many bickering between Serbs and Croats about the origin, neglecting the fact that the Illyrians, our ancestors, were settled in western Balkan long time before so-called the great migration. If someone want to make some conclusion about the origin, it is not easy, and all the DNA data needs to be read in conjunction with the true history facts in order to make clear picture. Wikipedia is unreliable so i strongly recommend not to be used. I've seen many times guys taking some sentences from the books which they have never read completely out of the context. This is the correct way to confuse your self and post complete nonsense.

Novi Pazar is that you?
 

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