Knez Dervan's Serbia and the Ethnogenisis of Balkan Serbs

[LABERIA]

Original Serbs were Jatts, they came from India.

First time i hear this theory. Any source?
My opinion is that they came from Pashtunistan. There are even some toponymus that suggest this region as the original homeland of the Serbs.

 

[Bachus]

First time i hear this theory. Any source?
My opinion is that they came from Pashtunistan. There are even some toponymus that suggest this region as the original homeland of the Serbs.

Serbs have nothing to do with Pashtuns. Genetically, linguistically neihther in any other sense Sebs are not related with Pashtuns.

Deal with it.

 

[hrvat22]

Good day everyone, I've been reading lately most of the posts related to I2a haplogroups and i have noticed that a lot of peoples are posting their theories based on weak wikipedia knowledge . Moreover, I am surprised that theory of the great slaves migration to Balkan is still used (very often here) even though it is proven to be wrong. Some of the countries already removed this theory from their curriculum such as Italy, Spain, Netherlands following the modern science and disregarding theories without proof. Yet Serbs and Croats are still referring to falls history made by Austro-Hungerians in 2nd half of 19th century with one purpose: to colonize Balkan, providing others the chance to steal their heritage, and i am not talking only about common people but historians as well. At least it is proven that there was no "great migration" but more likely the opposite. I've seen so many bickering between Serbs and Croats about the origin, neglecting the fact that the Illyrians, our ancestors, were settled in western Balkan long time before so-called the great migration. If someone want to make some conclusion about the origin, it is not easy, and all the DNA data needs to be read in conjunction with the true history facts in order to make clear picture. Wikipedia is unreliable so i strongly recommend not to be used. I've seen many times guys taking some sentences from the books which they have never read completely out of the context. This is the correct way to confuse your self and post complete nonsense.

You have genetics and all you say prove with genetics, till then you talk fairy tales.

 

[LABERIA]

Serbs have nothing to do with Pashtuns. Genetically, linguistically neihther in any other sense Sebs are not related with Pashtuns.

Deal with it.

In Afghanistan and Pakistan there is a tribal group of Pashtuns called Sarbans / Sarbani. Their name is similar to the name of Caucasian tribe named Sarban (Sarbani), which some researchers connected to Serbs.[6]

If you don't agree with this theory, you have to offer an alternative.

 

[Bachus]

If you don't agree with this theory, you have to offer an alternative.

I dont't agree for sure, because Pastuns have 55% R1a-Z93 and among Serbs R1a-Z93 does not exist, not a single Serb with R1a-Z93 from the around 3500 tested Serbs.

Serbian R1a are Z280 (around 2/3) and M458 (around 1/3) - both are Slavic, other branches of R1a such as Scandinavian Z284 or "Aryan" Z93 does not exist among Serbs.

 

[LABERIA]

I dont't agree for sure, because Pastuns have 55% R1a-Z93 and among Serbs R1a-Z93 does not exist, not a single Serb with R1a-Z93 from the around 3500 tested Serbs.

Serbian R1a are Z280 (around 2/3) and M458 (around 1/3) - both are Slavic, other branches of R1a such as Scandinavian Z284 or "Aryan" Z93 does not exist among Serbs.

I didn't said that Serbs are Pashtuns. I said that there is an theory, among many others, that indicates as a possible original homeland of the Serbs, the region of Pashtunistan.
How much are related Serbs with Pashtuns in terms of language, genetics, etc, this is an issue that probably in the future scholars maybe will explain it.

 

[Bachus]

I didn't said that Serbs are Pashtuns. I said that there is an theory, among many others, that indicates as a possible original homeland of the Serbs, the region of Pashtunistan.
How much are related Serbs with Pashtuns in terms of language, genetics, etc, this is an issue that probably in the future scholars maybe will explain it.

Serbs and Pashtuns are not related genetically.

Ancestors of Pashtuns were Scythians (R1a-Z93) and they came to Afghanistan as invaders from southern Russia. When they came to central Asia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran and India as invaders they mixed with mongoloids, Dravidians and Semitic people, because of that modern holders of R1a-Z93 are not white people (except few Iranian and Pashtuns), ancient holders of R1a-Z93 (Scythians/Aryans) were 100% white.

 

[LABERIA]

Serbs and Pashtuns are genetically unrelated.

Ancestors of Pashtuns were Scythians (R1a-Z93) and they came to Afghanistan as invaders from southern Russia. When they came to central Asia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran and India as invaders they mixed with mongoloids, Dravidians and Semitic people, because of that modern holders of R1a-Z93 are not white people (except few Iranian and Pashtuns), ancient holders of R1a-Z93 (Scythians/Aryans) were 100% white.

And according to you, which place could be the best candidate as the original homeland of the Serbs?

 

[Crya]

Huh, what makes you jump into conclusion?

 

[Crya]

Sorry for not quoting, this is related to "Novi Pazar is that you"

 

[Bachus]

And according to you, which place could be the best candidate as the original homeland of the Serbs?

Balkans is original homeland of Serbs because ethno-genesis of Serbs were in the Balkan in Middle Age.
Original holders of Serbian name are not same as modern Serbs.

There is theory that proto-Serbs were Alan (Iranic) tribe Serboi.
Serboi were probably R1a-Z93, G and R1b-Z2103.
R1a-Z93 were the main haplogroup among Iranic people, G is most common among Ossetians (they are known as descandants of Alans) and R1b-Z2103 is present among Ossetians and exist in France and Spain (came with Alans) [video]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Alani_map.jpg[/video]

R1a-Z93, R1b-Z2103 (quite common among Albanians) and Caucasian branch of G does not exist among Serbs and if Serbs are related with Serboi then this haplogroup shoulds be present among Serbs.

By the way original homeland of all humans is Africa.

 

[Crya]

You have genetics and all you say prove with genetics, till then you talk fairy tales.

I’d wish it is simple as that, but it is not. I’ll ask you one question. The most dominant haplogroup in Croatia is I2a. Maybe the original Croatians are R1a only, that had asimilated I2a and shared their genes? Possible? In order to prove something you will need to know some historical facts in conjunction with arheology, etimogy and other relevant disciplines... These you cannot learn in 2 days, more often not even in 2 years. “Till then you talk fairy tales”.

 

[hrvat22]

I’d wish it is simple as that, but it is not. I’ll ask you one question. The most dominant haplogroup in Croatia is I2a. Maybe the original Croatians are R1a only, that had asimilated I2a and shared their genes? Possible? In order to prove something you will need to know some historical facts in conjunction with arheology, etimogy and other relevant disciplines... These you cannot learn in 2 days, more often not even in 2 years. “Till then you talk fairy tales”.

So far, most or all of those who are negative for S17250 have patrilineageoriginating near the Carpathians, particularly southeastern Poland andextreme western Ukraine. That pattern may change with more sampling, ofcourse Date: 20 May 2014.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2014-05/1400615460

May 4, 2017..In fact there is still only one known man who is CTS10228+ S17250- Y4460- Z17855- A2512-, he has paternal ancestry from southeastern Poland.

http://i2aproject.blogspot.hr/2017/05/may-2017-draft-trees-for-i-l621-and-i.html

n 2010 has Ken Nordtvedt argued that I-L69.2 is too young not to have been a result of a sudden expansion. According to him I2a1b1 arose not earlier than 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. He has presumed this to be a consequence from the Slavic invasion of the Balkans, from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE. In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I-L69.2 is not older than 2,800 years. In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I-L69.2 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula.

http://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/Tree and Map for Hg I.pdf

The second haplotype of Croats R1a Z280 CTS3402 also has a high frequency in southern Poland but for now it does not know the source of the same ... probably in southern Poland but it needs to be determined.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?hl=en&mid=1uIEV-Unzie9mLufrQJyWb4fD9zg

Stiljsko, southwestern Ukraine ..there were numerous Croatian sitesVI.-XI. (naseobine, gradina, grobi-what, cult centers). Found richarchaeological material proves that it was oldCroatian township functioned intime from the middle of the IX. to the beginning of XI

https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Стільськоhttps://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show=clanak&id_clanak_jezik=17599

Russian geneticist I. Rozhansky says:2013/10/18 translation from Russian ...Croats haplogroup R1a is represented almost exclusively by the Central Eurasian subcommittee Z280 (as in Eastern Slavs and Carpathians). And Croats, Slovenians, and as, most likely, Serbs dominate several branches that have the common Sneap CTS3402. the geography of these branches is such that it is possible to trace its path from Carpathian side to the Adriatic. The same can be said about "Dinarides" subsidiary subclades I2a1b. Obviously, White Croats and Croats from Carpathians to Adriatic are really close peoples. You can not say this about Lužičani Sorbs and Danubian Serbs - they are too different line

http://pereformat.ru/2013/10/kolybel-evropejskoj-civilizacii/

DAI 10th century

From Croats, who came to Dalmatia, one part separated, and occupied Illyricum (Illurikon) and Panonian (Pannonian), they also had their own independent prince, who maintained friendly bonds, only through the apostles, with the knight of Croatia.

​But, at that time, Croats lived behind Bagibaree, where they were now White Croats (Belohrobatoi)..

Iraklije 612-641

From letter of Roman Pope Gregory I, year 600.

Because Slavs began to enter through Istria to Italy

etc...

 

[LABERIA]

Balkans is original homeland of Serbs because ethno-genesis of Serbs were in the Balkan in Middle Age.
Original holders of Serbian name are not same as modern Serbs.

There is theory that proto-Serbs were Alan (Iranic) tribe Serboi.
Serboi were probably R1a-Z93, G and R1b-Z2103.
R1a-Z93 were the main haplogroup among Iranic people, G is most common among Ossetians (they are known as descandants of Alans) and R1b-Z2103 is present among Ossetians and exist in France and Spain (came with Alans) [video]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Alani_map.jpg[/video]

R1a-Z93, R1b-Z2103 (quite common among Albanians) and Caucasian branch of G does not exist among Serbs and if Serbs are related with Serboi then this haplogroup shoulds be present among Serbs.

By the way original homeland of all humans is Africa.

I asked about Serbs, not all humans. Seems that you don't have an theory.

 

[Miroslav]

Knez Dervan's country population which were ancestral to contemporary Sorbs cannot be anyhow dominantly related to I2a-Dinaric when Sorbs have around 65% R1a. Instead to be interested about R1a, no, Serbs must jump once again on the I2a-Dinaric bandwagon because it is a dominant haplogroup on the Western Balkan and as such politically profitable to prove it is of Serbian origin.

Also, note - the frequency in the Czech Republic is a mistake as it represents many samples from a single Czech surname family who tried to trace its mutual origin and relationship (furthermore, they belong to a single branch, it's not the I2a-Dinaric group of SNP branches at all). These contemporary maps are not an evidence, they are mostly useless and misleading for the representation of the past.

 

[Garrick]

I didn't said that Serbs are Pashtuns. I said that there is an theory, among many others, that indicates as a possible original homeland of the Serbs, the region of Pashtunistan.
How much are related Serbs with Pashtuns in terms of language, genetics, etc, this is an issue that probably in the future scholars maybe will explain it.

Scientists Grey and Atkinson find that Albanian has same root as Indic and Iranian:

It has much greater weight, because it is scientific paper, than what people write in forums. And their paper is not only one.

 

[Johane Derite]

Scientists Grey and Atkinson find that Albanian has same root as Indic and Iranian:

It has much greater weight, because it is scientific paper, than what people write in forums. And their paper is not only one.

Andrew Garrets 2015 paper has already disproved this, he has a lecture about the faulty method many linguists were using that produced odd results making the indo european language 10000 years old and many languages being in odd branches. Albanian is not on the indic-iranian branch. It is on the same branch with greek/armenian.

 

[Garrick]

Andrew Garrets 2015 paper has already disproved this, he has a lecture about the faulty method many linguists were using that produced odd results making the indo european language 10000 years old and many languages being in odd branches. Albanian is not on the indic-iranian branch. It is on the same branch with greek/armenian.

In newer comprehensive study:

Willems, Lord, Laforest, Labelle, Lapointe, Di Sciullo (2016), opposite Garrets, again determine: Albanian and Indic & Iranic.

 

[Crya]

I am referring to Indo-Iranic origin of Albanian language and refering to language tree given by Johane Derite.

I must notice that this is complete nonsense (i am talking about Slavic tree). Placing Slovenian in front of other Slavic languages is, just, funny. After that placing Serbian in front of Macedonian is 2nd nonsense since Macedonian is characterized as archaic Serbian and as such is older then Serbian. From here we can see that even today there is no serious studies conducted regarding the Slavic languages by western scientists, instead they have adopted some ridiculous theories. It is not a secret that Germans have usurp many of the Slavic tribes now days presented as Germanic. One example is Markomanni. But unfortunately it is written in the stone:

STYN. OVVY. UKLOPYEN. BYLIE. JESTI. MERA.
SGODE. KRUKOVUYE. NASS. MARKOMAN. I.
BRETE. SLAVNOV. LITOV. BOYA. NASGA. MAR-
KOMAN. PROYDE. NI. SLAVNOV. STYN . POKOI.
LYTH. V. VIKA.

Prevod (IKAVSKI):
STINA OVA UKLOPLJENA BILJEG JESTE MIRA
ZGODE KRUKOVIJE NAS MARKOMAN(A)
I BRATIJE (BRACE) SLAVNIJEH LITA (LETA) BOJA NASEGA
MARKOMAN PROIDE (PRODJE) NI (NE) SLAVNI STINA (STENA)
POKOJ LIT (LETA) V VIKE (VEKE ILI VJEKE)

Regarding modern Albanian, it is one of the youngest European language. Regarding the roots, i doubt it is Iranic since Iranic and Indic are more linked to Serbian through Sanskrit.

Only few examples of words related to family relations - Serbian vs Sanskrit:

Mayka - Majka (Mother)
Tata - Tata (Dad)
Dada, Baba - Deda, Baba (Grandfather, Grandmother)
Bhrat - Brat (Brother)
Zet - Zet (Brother in law)
Tatku - Tetak (Uncle)

 

[LABERIA]

Scientists Grey and Atkinson find that Albanian has same root as Indic and Iranian:

It has much greater weight, because it is scientific paper, than what people write in forums. And their paper is not only one.

Excuse me but what have to the origin of Albanian language with the ethnogenesis of the Serbs? I am not going to report your post, because is useless, but honestly i can`t understand this, only an brilliant mind like yours can explain this connection.
From years now, the only your preocupation in this forum is spreading disinformation about Albanians. Albanians are from Africa, Berber tribe, from Asia, from Romania(your funny theory of koçi-boçi from Carpathian mountains), from Bulgaria, now from Iran and India. And i am sure that you will continue to do this in the future for many years, it`s evident that you have some support in this forum.
What i want to remember to you is that this thread is about the ethnogenesis of YOUR nation, not about my nation.
Thanks for your attention.