Kosovo

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Garrick

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LeBrok
Yes, you’re right, democracy is the best solution.

But problems are complex and quick fixes are not good. Because for quick fixes in the longer terms result as the worst solutions.

Sparkley explained very clearly:

sparkey said:
The Syrian Civil War has much more to do with Shia vs. Sunni than it does dictatorship vs. democracy. Letting the rebels win may bring somebody worse than Assad to power. And that's not to mention the vengeance that would ensue! I would hate to be an Alawite if Assad loses the war. Even the Melkites could be wiped out. This is way more serious than playing good guys/bad guys.
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If someone cannot take account complexity of situation, Syria would quickly lost Shiites and all ethnic and religious groups that have supported Assad. You agree that it is not good solution.

Key decision makers can improve the ways how to solve complex problems. I think it is not good strategy win-lost, where one side gets all and another nothing. In a long term win-win solutions are the best.

You have an example of Kosovo. Before 1999 in Kosovo lived Serbs, Gorans, Roma etc. After 1999 Kosovo became ethnically pure Albanian.

It is not good for all, including Albanians. Today Kosovo is least developed part of Europe and very poor. Serbia has a lot invested in Kosovo and, for a time 20-30 years ago, Kosovo had a very rapid development. Sustainability is a problem in the long term. Kosovo today would have much better perspective that the Serbs remained.

And certainly it could be found a win-win solution. Complex problems require a longer time to solution but solutions are long-term and sustainable, quick solutions are wrong. And to reiterate what I said, democracy is the best way, but for democracy specific conditions must be created, it takes a more time and engagement, but leads to much better and more sustainable solutions.
 
Ike said:
@LeBrok
The definition of democracy? OK, let me remember from high school... it was somewhere in old Greece - We lay down in the sun, theoretizing and making philosophy, while slaves work for us. Good enough?

@FBS
Maybe we share same views, I don't know much about him. Anyway, I doubt I'd be soldier for anyone.

@Alan Don't overreact. There is no hatred for everything that is American. Just for that part where they intrude on others, and impose them their democracy.



You people tell that Saddam made war campaigns that ended in killing tens of thousands of Kurds, and declare it a genocide. OK. But when Turkey does the same or worse thing, then there is no reaction. Why? I have no other explanation except for it is a NATO member. If you wanted democracy, why hasn't anyone pleaded for Kurdish independence. We all know there are ~ 30.000.000 Kurds around here, and they get slaughtered by everyone around for decades:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...34px-Kurdish-inhabited_area_by_CIA_(1992).jpg
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I agree regarding the Kurdish question. But, there is something going on even in Turkey. If you sit and talk with Turkish people who live abroad but go to Turkey very often, they have a feeling that there is something wrong going on with their country, same feeling of uncertainty that we had in Yugoslavia before everything went "down the drains". So: Iraq, Syria, most probably Iran and the last one will be Turkey?! Is it possible? - even I do not believe in it, and I listened in disbelief the Turks who were speaking in fear of their country future, and possible involvement of US in partitioning it, but there is a "smoke" I guess. Even though political stances and plans might change overnight, that is how we humans are - adaptable and opportunistic. Turks fear that Erdogan has a mission in destroying Turkey, something that Serb citizens used to say about Milosevic, claiming that he was a CIA guy, before the heavy conflicts started. Fiction?
 
Garrick said:
LeBrok
Yes, you’re right, democracy is the best solution.

But problems are complex and quick fixes are not good. Because for quick fixes in the longer terms result as the worst solutions.

Sparkley explained very clearly:



If someone cannot take account complexity of situation, Syria would quickly lost Shiites and all ethnic and religious groups that have supported Assad. You agree that it is not good solution.

Key decision makers can improve the ways how to solve complex problems. I think it is not good strategy win-lost, where one side gets all and another nothing. In a long term win-win solutions are the best.

You have an example of Kosovo. Before 1999 in Kosovo lived Serbs, Gorans, Roma etc. After 1999 Kosovo became ethnically pure Albanian.

It is not good for all, including Albanians. Today Kosovo is least developed part of Europe and very poor. Serbia has a lot invested in Kosovo and, for a time 20-30 years ago, Kosovo had a very rapid development. Sustainability is a problem in the long term. Kosovo today would have much better perspective that the Serbs remained.

And certainly it could be found a win-win solution. Complex problems require a longer time to solution but solutions are long-term and sustainable, quick solutions are wrong. And to reiterate what I said, democracy is the best way, but for democracy specific conditions must be created, it takes a more time and engagement, but leads to much better and more sustainable solutions.
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I am sorry Garrick but in Kosovo we have Serbs, Montenegrin, Bosniaks, Turks, Gorani, Croats, Roma, Ashkali, Egyptians. All of them have their parties represented locally and centrally.

We have Serb ministers and deputy prime ministers http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,43,30 & http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,6,1836, http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,43,25
Turk ministers http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,43,27.

We have Montenegro house in the center of Prishtina https://www.facebook.com/pages/Montenegro-House/309874715710558.

The Serbs of North are finally getting inside the constitutional system of Kosova in November 2013. You should follow the talks more closely, (among other news) http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2013&mm=07&dd=24&nav_id=87062.

Croat president visited the small community of Croats in Janjeva http://www.president-ksgov.net/?page=2,6,3015.

Kosovo is multi-ethnic. Albanian, Serbian and Turkish language are official languages and English. All the official documents are in four languages, and my recent birth certificate was signed by a Serb that works in the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Kosovo.

The only problem is that Serb community in the north does not want to get integrated in Kosovo system since they do not recognize Kosovo (mind you it is a parallel system created for the sake of crime & shady businesses since they do not pay taxes to anyone) while they do not bother about the Serbs that are in other parts of Kosovo.

The final results of the international involvement in Kosovo for us “mortals” are very good. Finally we have started to breathe and live normally, with no tanks and military on the streets, no tear gas and no curfews. You should first visit the country that you are talking about and then write about them. I see that you have no clue what is going on in Kosovo.
 
FBS said:
I am sorry Garrick but in Kosovo we have Serbs, Montenegrin, Bosniaks, Turks, Gorani, Croats, Roma, Ashkali, Egyptians. All of them have their parties represented locally and centrally.

We have Serb ministers and deputy prime ministers http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,43,30 & http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,6,1836, http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,43,25
Turk ministers http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=2,43,27.

We have Montenegro house in the center of Prishtina https://www.facebook.com/pages/Montenegro-House/309874715710558.

The Serbs of North are finally getting inside the constitutional system of Kosova in November 2013. You should follow the talks more closely, (among other news) http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2013&mm=07&dd=24&nav_id=87062.

Croat president visited the small community of Croats in Janjeva http://www.president-ksgov.net/?page=2,6,3015.

Kosovo is multi-ethnic. Albanian, Serbian and Turkish language are official languages and English. All the official documents are in four languages, and my recent birth certificate was signed by a Serb that works in the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Kosovo.

The only problem is that Serb community in the north does not want to get integrated in Kosovo system since they do not recognize Kosovo (mind you it is a parallel system created for the sake of crime & shady businesses since they do not pay taxes to anyone) while they do not bother about the Serbs that are in other parts of Kosovo.

The final results of the international involvement in Kosovo for us “mortals” are very good. Finally we have started to breathe and live normally, with no tanks and military on the streets, no tear gas and no curfews. You should first visit the country that you are talking about and then write about them. I see that you have no clue what is going on in Kosovo.
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You can see. According last census performed in Yugoslavia, in Kosovo lived:

Serbs and Montenegrins 15.12%
Bosniacs and Gorans (then writted as Muslims) 3.7%
Roma 2.15%
Turks 0.79%
Croats 0.55%

After only several months 1999, Kosovo became almost ethnically pure. People have become refugees.
Today all minorities in Kosovo about you write are less than 7%. And it is reality.

If in Syria apply the same principle the same can happen. And, you agree, it is not good way.
 
I apologize to others, since this thread has to do with Syria but I feel obliged to answer to all of those who did not experience in their skin the danger of getting wiped out as a nation and then to be saved by "the bad guys". I was in Kosovo all the time and still am here and I witnessed everything myself.

@Garrick
Percentages are different, what do you expect after such a conflict, but the fact is that Kosovo is not (quote your words) "ethnically pure Albanian" and the international community (US and EU) are very determined to do it right till the end. So the "bad guys" are not that bad after all, things are not always black and white. That is why we have a minister for return who is a Serb, in order to bring back those that would like to come back. But people will chose where they want to live. It is the same with Albanians who fled during the war and during the Milosevic regime, a lot of them did not come back.
 
Kosovo is a very complex subject, that goes beyond of what US is willing to see(and this thread). I wouldn't talk about details in here, cause it deserves at least its' own thread, but I suppose it will get so hot in there, that there is no point in starting it :)

For what is worth, it's good thing that there is finally some sort of effort shown on all three sides (EU, Serbian, Albanian) so that there is a hope for political solution. I personally think that both Serbs and Albanians should forget about final solution for now, and orientate on regulating life in the area - water, food, electricity, medical care, social security, education, infrastructure (roads, bridges, railways), communications (mobile, internet), etc..

There are a lot of important problems in present moment, and it will take years to sort that out. Maybe in a decade of two, in a new and refreshed Kosovo society, some new generations will be able to find a solution for the problem (which we weren't capable of).
 
FBS said:
I apologize to others, since this thread has to do with Syria but I feel obliged to answer to all of those who did not experience in their skin the danger of getting wiped out as a nation and then to be saved by "the bad guys". I was in Kosovo all the time and still am here and I witnessed everything myself.

@Garrick
Percentages are different, what do you expect after such a conflict, but the fact is that Kosovo is not (quote your words) "ethnically pure Albanian" and the international community (US and EU) are very determined to do it right till the end. So the "bad guys" are not that bad after all, things are not always black and white. That is why we have a minister for return who is a Serb, in order to bring back those that would like to come back. But people will chose where they want to live. It is the same with Albanians who fled during the war and during the Milosevic regime, a lot of them did not come back.
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I am talking about Syria.

Quick solution for Serbia led that Kosovo today is ethnic cleanest land in Europe. Over 93% inhabitants of Kosovo today are Albanians. You almost cannot find no country from south to north of Europe so ethnically pure.

Syria can be same example if key decision makers make quick fixes. Problems are complex and require adequate and sustainable long-term solutions. This requires more time and commitment but in the long run leads to winning position.
 
Ike said:
Kosovo is a very complex subject, that goes beyond of what US is willing to see(and this thread). I wouldn't talk about details in here, cause it deserves at least its' own thread, but I suppose it will get so hot in there, that there is no point in starting it :)

For what is worth, it's good thing that there is finally some sort of effort shown on all three sides (EU, Serbian, Albanian) so that there is a hope for political solution. I personally think that both Serbs and Albanians should forget about final solution for now, and orientate on regulating life in the area - water, food, electricity, medical care, social security, education, infrastructure (roads, bridges, railways), communications (mobile, internet), etc..

There are a lot of important problems in present moment, and it will take years to sort that out. Maybe in a decade of two, in a new and refreshed Kosovo society, some new generations will be able to find a solution for the problem (which we weren't capable of).
Click to expand...

Yes, Kosovo is complex, and Syria is complex. These days more politicians compare Syria and Kosovo, including American president Mr. Obama. American president was awarded the Nobel peace prize. Americans are now more cautious because they know what happened in Kosovo after June 1999.

American Cato institute (2000):

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/natos-disastrous-victory-kosovo

“NATO’s attack was supposed to bring peace to this territory of Yugoslavia. But immediately after Washington’s “triumph” came the mass flight of ethnic Serbs.

Those who did not run, including Croats, Gypsies, Jews and even non-Albanian Muslims, have been bombed, shot, kidnapped, beaten and robbed. Scores of orthodox churches, monasteries and other religious sites have been despoiled.

Gen. Klaus Reinhardt, head of the NATO “peacekeeping” force (KFOR), admits that Kosovo remains too dangerous for the 150,000 to 250,000 refugees to return.”

American Cato institute (2013):

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/biggest-fool-all

“Of course, Clinton ignored the fact that the triumphant ethnic Albanians then engaged in their own campaign of ethnic cleansing — while U.S. troops were occupying Kosovo.”

And in Syria this situation can be repeated. The solution is not that Alawites and all ethnic and religious groups who support President Mr. Assad be wiped out. Solution for Syria should be long-term and sustainable. Of course democracy is the best way.
 
Democracy, in which the majority will decide; and majority is for extermination of the minority :)
 
Garrick said:
Yes, Kosovo is complex, and Syria is complex. These days more politicians compare Syria and Kosovo, including American president Mr. Obama. American president was awarded the Nobel peace prize. Americans are now more cautious because they know what happened in Kosovo after June 1999.

American Cato institute (2000):

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/natos-disastrous-victory-kosovo

“NATO’s attack was supposed to bring peace to this territory of Yugoslavia. But immediately after Washington’s “triumph” came the mass flight of ethnic Serbs.

Those who did not run, including Croats, Gypsies, Jews and even non-Albanian Muslims, have been bombed, shot, kidnapped, beaten and robbed. Scores of orthodox churches, monasteries and other religious sites have been despoiled.

Gen. Klaus Reinhardt, head of the NATO “peacekeeping” force (KFOR), admits that Kosovo remains too dangerous for the 150,000 to 250,000 refugees to return.”

American Cato institute (2013):

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/biggest-fool-all

“Of course, Clinton ignored the fact that the triumphant ethnic Albanians then engaged in their own campaign of ethnic cleansing — while U.S. troops were occupying Kosovo.”

And in Syria this situation can be repeated. The solution is not that Alawites and all ethnic and religious groups who support President Mr. Assad be wiped out. Solution for Syria should be long-term and sustainable. Of course democracy is the best way.
Click to expand...

the old french proposal ( when they ran syria decades ago) is being talked about as a political solution.....it is ...to split the nation in 3

Syria in the south
Assyria in middle and give the kurds some lands up north. Of course the turks and iraqs do not want to see a Kurdistan:rolleyes2:
 
Ike said:
Democracy, in which the majority will decide; and majority is for extermination of the minority :)
Click to expand...
Yeah, let's exterminate the majority for the sake of minority :) I see it is happening in Serbia, the minorities are running the country! Hell yeah, it's a model all over the modern world, only Kosovo is an exception where the majority is at power, strange...
 
If you value the democratic development of the country with the engagement of minorities in state politics, Serbia would be one of the most democratic republics in the world since WW2 :)
 
FBS said:
Yeah, let's exterminate the majority for the sake of minority :) I see it is happening in Serbia, the minorities are running the country! Hell yeah, it's a model all over the modern world, only Kosovo is an exception where the majority is at power, strange...
Click to expand...

Look this video:

Marko94 said:
That video can answer to you (i think u have see).
In internet u can find so many video like this subbed in italian.
Click to expand...

In Albania, Serbs was banned all: Serbian names and surnames, Serbian language, religion, culture, the right to education in their own language, basic human rights, etc. From the thirties to nineties Serbs in Albania are almost albanized. You can see in this video that in time king Zogu were discriminatory laws against Serbs. And especially discriminatory laws were in time of rule of Communist Enver Hoxa. Serbs and Montenegrins are prohibited ethnicity and violated human rights.

On the other side Albanians in Serbia and SFR Yugoslavia had all the rights, language, culture, religion, education in Albanian, all. And not only that. Republic of Serbia and Yugoslav federation gave heavily to develop areas which are inhabited by Albanians. As Serbian province, Serbia and SFR Yugoslavia invested in AP Kosovo over 18 billion dollars from 1961 to 1990. In time: 1956-1990 average rate of industrial growth in AP Kosovo was the 6.3%. From 1952 to 1990 GDP in AP Kosovo grew 5.4 times.

Compare, Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania suffered extinction. Albanians in Serbia had big progress. And Albanians from Albania came to live in Serbian province Kosovo because it was a better life and greater rights. Marko94 is objective and thanks for this educational video.
 
Ike said:
If you value the democratic development of the country with the engagement of minorities in state politics, Serbia would be one of the most democratic republics in the world since WW2 :)
Click to expand...
This is the most ironic joke I have ever heard. All the majority run states discriminate heavily other minorities not only on the ethnic basis but also on political affinities, class, regional language and customs (within the same ethnic group), the list is endless. Same is happening in Serbia as well. Your comments are childish and not in touch with reality, totally brainwashed as if the Serbs are the only angels on earth. Wake up and face the reality - grow up.
 
There have always been bad things going on in Balkans between the nations on all sides, and there have been some nasty deeds from Serbian side since 1912 on Albanians. But now things are different, Balkans is trying to move on and join EU. Digging the past and becoming bitter about it will not help forget and forgive and try to see the future.

To balance your one sided "truth" try to read some of this: http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/kosovo/chap3.htm. Otherwise I hate to dig in the bitter past, but since you are bringing up the issue of Serbs in Albania that are none of my concern, since I am in Kosovo and I was part of Yugoslavia, I brought up the issue of Albanians in Kosovo under the governance of Serbia within Yugoslavia.

Things are never black and white, minorities exist everywhere and it is a hard work for the majority to get passed their egos, and in Kosovo is definitely going to get better. Why? Because the best solution for Kosovo is to get to EU - and one cannot get to be a part of a certain community if does not respect the regulations of that same community.

So let us focus each of us on making our own states better instead of digging the past and trying to find the wrongdoing only on the other side.
 
On the other side Albanians in Serbia and SFR Yugoslavia had all the rights, language, culture, religion, education in Albanian, all. And not only that. Republic of Serbia and Yugoslav federation gave heavily to develop areas which are inhabited by Albanians. As Serbian province, Serbia and SFR Yugoslavia invested in AP Kosovo over 18 billion dollars from 1961 to 1990. In time: 1956-1990 average rate of industrial growth in AP Kosovo was the 6.3%. From 1952 to 1990 GDP in AP Kosovo grew 5.4 times.

Compare, Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania suffered extinction. Albanians in Serbia had big progress. And Albanians from Albania came to live in Serbian province Kosovo because it was a better life and greater rights. Marko94 is objective and thanks for this educational video.[/QUOTE]

More Serbian propaganda, I am old enough to know Serbian treatment on Albanian, I have lived through it. And my father and mother lived through it, my grandfather, who Serbs destroyed his house in his village. Stop your lies no matter what kosova is independent and we will never be with Serbia and never forget what Serbia have done.
 
FBS said:
This is the most ironic joke I have ever heard. All the majority run states discriminate heavily other minorities not only on the ethnic basis but also on political affinities, class, regional language and customs (within the same ethnic group), the list is endless. Same is happening in Serbia as well. Your comments are childish and not in touch with reality, totally brainwashed as if the Serbs are the only angels on earth. Wake up and face the reality - grow up.
Click to expand...

That was not a joke. Albanians were never discriminated in Serbia. I won't go into other matters since this is thread about Kosovo and you're probably Albanian, so lets stick to that one.

1. I need an explanation how could one minority, that was allegedly treated as Kosovo Albanians claim they were, managed to rise from 500.000 to 1.500.000?

2. Find me a region in which population rose 3x in a 40 years period?


Kosovo demographics.jpg
 
Luan said:
More Serbian propaganda, I am old enough to know Serbian treatment on Albanian, I have lived through it. And my father and mother lived through it, my grandfather, who Serbs destroyed his house in his village. Stop your lies no matter what kosova is independent and we will never be with Serbia and never forget what Serbia have done.
Click to expand...

Only facts. Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania did not have basic human rights. For example find one school in Albania in Serbian. Serbs and Montenegrins had no right even to their names and surnames. They were discriminated as no one in Europe, and albanized.

Compare with Albanians in Serbian autonomous province of Kosovo. Albanians had school and colleges in Albanian. Serbia invested in education of Albanians. Albanians were MPs, members of the government, directors by state enterprises etc. The data about 18 billion dollars invested in Kosovo by Serbia and SFR Yugoslavia is right, and you can check if you do not beleive. Ike is right Serbia was one of the most republic in the world with great respects of human rights. Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania could only dream what they had Albanians in Serbia. So much for human rights in Serbia and Albania.

Luan you know it, and tell honestly, why Albanians from Albania came to live in Serbia in time of Enver Hoxa?
Two related reasons.
1. In Serbia life was much better than Albania and
2. Albanians in Serbia felt free, and they knew that in Serbia was no discrimination.

And most important, Albanians in Serbia had great personal progress, much more than in Albania, where was Enver Hoxa's dictatorship. There are all facts that is very easy to someone checks.
 
Garrick said:
Only facts. Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania did not have basic human rights. For example find one school in Albania in Serbian. Serbs and Montenegrins had no right even to their names and surnames. They were discriminated as no one in Europe, and albanized.

Compare with Albanians in Serbian autonomous province of Kosovo. Albanians had school and colleges in Albanian. Serbia invested in education of Albanians. Albanians were MPs, members of the government, directors by state enterprises etc. The data about 18 billion dollars invested in Kosovo by Serbia and SFR Yugoslavia is right, and you can check if you do not beleive. Ike is right Serbia was one of the most republic in the world with great respects of human rights. Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania could only dream what they had Albanians in Serbia. So much for human rights in Serbia and Albania.

Luan you know it, and tell honestly, why Albanians from Albania came to live in Serbia in time of Enver Hoxa?
Two related reasons.
1. In Serbia life was much better than Albania and
2. Albanians in Serbia felt free, and they knew that in Serbia was no discrimination.

And most important, Albanians in Serbia had great personal progress, much more than in Albania, where was Enver Hoxa's dictatorship. There are all facts that is very easy to someone checks.
Click to expand...
My god, is this what serb government is teaching. I told you, I lived through the serbian control of Kosova, My eyes don't lie, and my parents neither. My Grandfather is 97 years old and still has memories what its was like. You may try to persuade non Albanians with your lies but we Albanian in Kosova will always know the truth. It wont change the stats of Kosova. We are free now.
 
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