Kosovo
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Ike
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We don't have to try anything. Facts speak for themselves. Where are answers to my questions?
Montenegro was republic in SFR Yugoslavia and in SR Yugoslavia, as Serbia. Montenegro could do what wanted. Montenegro was one of six republics of SFR Yugoslavia. They choose to live with Serbia 1991 in SR Yugoslavia, 2002 country changed name in Serbia and Montenegro and 2006 Montenegro became state. It is all ok. I love Montenegrins, they are wonderful and brave people, and a lot of Serbs have roots in Montenegro (Shumadia and Belgrade, especially). Montenegro there is no topic, but Kosovo, and majority Montenegrins together with the Serbs after June 1999 left Kosovo.
Topic was on Syria and it is complex problem. And a lot of politicians in the West these days, including American President Mr. Obama, compared Syria with Kosovo. Because Kosovo was complex problem too. And for Kosovo applied a quick fix. Quick solution led to ethnic cleansing, today in Kosovo live less than 7% Serbs, Montenegrins, Gorans, Roma and all other peoples who are not Albanians. In Syria is similar, if one side gets all (win-lost situation), there will be a lot of refugees. Syria have different religious and ethnic group as Kosovo had before 1999.
Respect is commendable. But you should know that it is different situation.
Serbia and Montenegro were two republics of Yugoslavia. It is similar as Catalonia and Valencia.
But Kosovo was part of Serbia, as for example Pyrenees is part of Catalonia. I doubt you would be glad that Pyrenees be independent of Catalonia, this would mean Catalonia to be reduced. Just an example (no offense).
Knovas
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In Catalonia we have the Vall d'Aran region, which is culturally different from the rest of Catalonia (they do speak a dialect of Occitan called Aranès). As far as I know, the vast majority of the Catalans would agree if they decide to leave. Of course I prefer they remain with us, but on top of that I'll always respect their will to be.
I understand your points, and trust me I have no particular issue with Serbia. But to force people is never a good solution, no one can stop a nation when it wants to follow a different way. Honestly, that's what I think.
Best.
I understand your points, and trust me I have no particular issue with Serbia. But to force people is never a good solution, no one can stop a nation when it wants to follow a different way. Honestly, that's what I think.
Best.
FBS
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Problem was complex, because many areas were "leopard skin" with mixed population, and Serbia has invested years and decades a lot of money, and had a lot of companies. Quick solution led to ethnic cleansing. There were 300,000 refugees from Kosovo after June, 1999, accepted by government of Serbia and about 10,000 accepted by government of Montenegro.
I'm convinced that it could be a better way to solve the problem, rather than win-lost type in which one side gets all and another loses everything. I think it should be improved ways of solving complex problems, as Kosovo, Syria, etc.
After the death of president Tito Yugoslavia descended into problems. Serbian, Croatian and Slovenian leaders were not able to find a deal (now in all three republics many people still love the country, Yugoslavia was a great place to live). At the beginning of the nineties federation began to crumble. Serbia and Montenegro remained in the country which no longer had the name Socialist, retaining the name Yugoslavia. And Kosovo is still part of Serbia. These are all historical facts.
The disintegration of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia led to the economic collapse. The economic factor in all of this is extremely important because the federal funds for Kosovo dried up and Serbia due to problems had not able to invest as before.
The nineties were not easy at venues across the former Yugoslavia. There were many problems. Certainly for Kosovo could find a solution that would satisfy the economic and political needs of all citizens regardless of their ethnic or religious affiliation, and the Republic of Serbia.
For Kosovo is especially important to understand the problem from the economic side. A lot of money Serbia and Yugoslav federation invested over the decades in Kosovo that was one extremely underdeveloped area to create a solid place to live. Extremely high birth rate is contributing to the funds, no matter how big, were still insufficient the Autonomous Province of Kosovo reaches remaining part of Serbia and the Yugoslav federation (Ike noticed how big was the population growth).
Addition the economic, the ethnic issue is certainly an essential part of the problem. Someone on another thread mentioned a religious problem, Serbs and Montenegrins are Christians, Kosovo Albanians are Muslim, but religious element is just one of the elements that contribute to the growing complexity of the problem. It was certainly more elements that are very important for the problem, including the environment. From this short passage one can imagine that the Kosovo problem is very complex.
Ike
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I never mentioned Albania anywhere. Don't know what you're trying to pull off here.
You still haven't answered how the number of Albanians in Kosovo rose magically so quickly in such a terrifying conditions. I've read your link, but I didn't wanted to comment it since it's only pulling you down on this subject. If we take it seriously, it looks like the numbers would be even higher.
FBS
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Kosovo is a closed subject, same as there is no more Yugoslavia, and we are able to take care of ourselves and our minorities. And yes, this is a success story for NATO, US and EU. We will eternally be thankful to them for their willingness to stand up for the human rights. A lot of work lays ahead but we will make it through. There is no looking back anymore. Things are changing, not only in Balkans but in EU as well;Catalonia, Scotland, probably Veneto, and other movements that I do not know of and I wish them all the best of luck in succeeding.
FBS
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- This is what we should be focusing at:
Serbia/Kosovo: Landmark Opportunity for Human Rights
APR 23, 2013
The April 19 agreement between Serbia and Kosovo offers a landmark opportunity to improve human rights protection in both countries.
We need good news and be happy for the "baby steps" taken on both sides, that is the only way for the better future.
Ike
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What do you mean closed? Are you suggesting that one minority can take away the territory of another country just on the basis of enormous immigration or birth rate?
Your support to the "movements you're not familiar of" indicates your full subjectivity. Why would you support something you know nothing about? Just because their pattern of behavior may help your cause? It looks like you'd be supporting any separatist movement in the world.
Anyway, KiM is not Albanian. There is no logic to relate the administrative zone of KiM which was formed after WW2 with Serbian-Albanian relations. If anything, Albanians in Yugoslavia could have asked independence on the territories with their population. Why would anyone let you pull out the parts of SFRJ that are not inhabited with Albanians. Do you consider that as a democracy?
FBS
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1. Yes they can, Kosovo is the proof! Considering your logic that is.
2. Yes I will, any rightful and justified non chauvinistic movement for separation. I will always support the self-determination right for the sake of better and independent life without suppression of any kind.
3. a)Kosovo is a state with the majority Albanian and has other minorities as its citizens. b) Well, the borders of Kosovo were set by Yugoslavia with Serbia being a big part of it, so that is your bad. c) We did, but Serbs wanted the whole territory for themselves without Albanians so decided to expel all of Albanians but unfortunately did not work, it came back as a boomerang. d) Same goes for every independent entity/states now created post Yugoslavia such as Macedonia, Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia as well - so this would be opening the Pandoras box. Therefore, you should go to EU and UN and pose this question, why didn't they open the Pandoras box? You should learn more about geopolitical issues. e) I consider it politics/diplomacy on geopolitical scales. Besides, I cannot solve these problems for you, I am not a politician in a high level. Why don't you raise these concerns with your politicians? I am a wrong address for you.
Serbs as other nations are not angels, of course. But for Albanians Serbian communists were like Angels. You can see what terrible things communists of Enver Hoxha worked Serbs and Montenegrins in Albania. Did the communists in Serbia revenge? No. Serbian communists were humanists. They honestly believed in the achievement of a socialist society. Serbia has allocated huge funds for development of AP Kosovo, although some other regions of Serbia were underdeveloped. Serbian communist honestly thought that every human being should be given a chance. Their key slogan was “brotherhood and unity”.
Socialism in Serbia and Yugoslavia was different from socialism in Albania, the USSR and the other socialist countries. In Albania, etc. was state socialism. In Serbia and Yugoslavia was self-managing socialism. And in the west there are some similar forms such a self-managing teams and worker’s shareholding. Serbian and Yugoslav model was very interesting and unique.
Certainly minus was that there was no democracy, there was only one party. But away from the dictatorship in other countries (for example government of Enver Hoxha in Albania), in Serbia and Yugoslavia there were a lot of personal freedom. And there was true equality between people regardless of their nationality, religion, etc. And Albanians in such a state of Serbia had much greater progress than the Albanians in Albania. The best proof of this is that the Albanians from Albania came to live in Serbia. Symbolic you’re right, Serbian politicians at the time of self-managing socialism in the Albanian eyes can be described like angels.
Ike
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@FBS
1. No it can't. Go look international law.
2. Albanians on Kosovo were repressive, chauvinist and lawless in their demands.
3. a) It is not state yet. Don't rush in there.
b) That's stupid reasoning. Everyone's shouting about being repressed in Yugoslavia by communists, but when it comes to the borders, everyone's just fine with them
Pure hypocrisy.
c) If it was like that, than there wouldn't be 10x more Albanians on Kosovo than what it used to be 100 years ago. And you STILL didn't answer my question about that. Why avoiding....
d)Yes. Opening of that Pandora's box is the only solution to prevent future wars. It's the box US has left.
e) You're the one claiming that no.1. is OK. You're supporting insane US imperialism against Serbs for Albanian gain. Yet you may be aware that it can come around. They will leave you just as soon as you stop serving their interests. A bit of modesty and decency wouldn't hurt you
1. No it can't. Go look international law.
2. Albanians on Kosovo were repressive, chauvinist and lawless in their demands.
3. a) It is not state yet. Don't rush in there.
b) That's stupid reasoning. Everyone's shouting about being repressed in Yugoslavia by communists, but when it comes to the borders, everyone's just fine with them
Pure hypocrisy.c) If it was like that, than there wouldn't be 10x more Albanians on Kosovo than what it used to be 100 years ago. And you STILL didn't answer my question about that. Why avoiding....
d)Yes. Opening of that Pandora's box is the only solution to prevent future wars. It's the box US has left.
e) You're the one claiming that no.1. is OK. You're supporting insane US imperialism against Serbs for Albanian gain. Yet you may be aware that it can come around. They will leave you just as soon as you stop serving their interests. A bit of modesty and decency wouldn't hurt you
After war, from Albania was the wave of immigrants in Serbia (the end of the forties and start fifties). Yugoslav historians have evidence about 30.000 and indications for some 75.000 Albanians. Serbia was better country for life than Albania. I do not go into the reasons why Serbia was so human.
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