Society LGBT society in Europe, you attitude?

[LeBrok]

And me, who thought that the wooden language is something the communists excelled at...

The LGBT propaganda is not after the right to marry or whatever rights they're claiming. They're after the right to be considered normal, and this is unacceptable. Single parenthood cannot be considered normal (and it is acceptable only because is the result of unfortunate events),

Well, till 200 years ago single parenthood was normal. Mortality was so high that sooner or later almost everybody was half an orphan, and older kids doubled as parents too. For most of humankind this was more normal than today's families. With 5 or 10 kid family no mother had time to read a book for goodnight, and real father worked all day, smelled like manure and had only time to smack kids around after hard day of work, well, often wife too. Yes, beating a wife was quite a norm too.

because it's not a situation to be desired,

What, you want to follow human feelings all of the sudden? What about gay's desire?

all the more reason for gay parenthood to not be considered normal.

Even if it is not normal, you still need to prove that they can't raise a normal kid, kid becoming a normal citizen. Only on these grounds, destructive to society, you can forbid adoption.

I'm really not in the mood to go about what homosexuality is and where it is coming from. I'm only saying this: sexuality may be instinctive, but this doesn't mean it is not rational.

Tell me how one can rationally make his penis to stand up? I don't remember anyone teaching this trick; not at home, not in school, not even on the street. It is natural and automatic reaction to what our brain persuasives as sexual beauty.
Let me know how to rationally do it and we can explain it to all the gays, ok? We are going to make their lives an easy one like for the rest of us.

There are rules and borders that sexuality cannot brake or cross (rape, incest, poligamy) and these are accepted as such, without someone saying they are limiting their rights. If you cannot fall in love with your mother and marry her, if you cannot marry all the 68 women you want to have sex with and have 148 legal children (why not, it's hapening in Utah), the same can be applied to gays.

Today EU politics are promoting two ideas: euthanasia and incest. What will be next? Cannibalism?

All aspects of social life are evaluated in frame of effect on its strength, its well being. We can categorize it as benefits, neutral or negative/destructive forces. What is truly destructive never will be allowed or legalized. Less destructive could be allowed though, like marijuana; or traditional destructive like alcohol and cigarettes, although alcohol is slightly destructive in France or Italy and very destructive for people of nomadic or hunter-gatherer past.
Homosexuality marriage is neutral/positive. They can't procreate but can raise adopted children with no worse results than heterosexual couple. Do you have any statistics showing that adopted kids turning homosexual in homosexual families? I don't think so. And if it was true you would hear about this already, and I would have been against homosexual adoptions too.

I'm just not sure why people bring such ridiculous examples of human behaviors like rape and cannibalism to prove their point that the end of world is near, if we accept gay marriage? First of all rape is not a sex of two consenting adults, and I'm not sure what it has to do with equality of rights and privileges we are talking about on this thread?!
Cannibalism - do we have at least one organization advocating rights to eat human flesh? Oh, wait a minute, Christians eat body of Christ! It is already legalized, lol.
Seriously, why the hell even concern ourselves with such non-existing problem. I never heard of a lineup at the morgue to get a pound of human meat. For all people eating human flesh is repulsive by nature, and only known instances of cannibalism happened from prolonged starvation with nothing else to eat and religious ritual traditions of HG tribes (for spiritual unity with ancestors).

Polygamy is currently accepted on religious grounds like in Muslim countries or in Utah. It used to be beneficial for Arab society when there was shortage of men after prolonged wars during Muslim expansion. In peaceful times ratio men to women is roughly 1 to 1. For social harmony it is a better scenario if only monogamy is allowed, and for that reason polygamy never will be popular or widespread.

Marry one's mother? Please, another fantasy of yours. Look at these parades of sickos with "Let me marry my mother" transparent lol.

Should we talk about why psychopathic behaviour won't be legalized either?

 

[LeBrok]

How about by bending the meaning of family, and what it means to society ? Do you think the family, consisting of a man and a woman (+ children), was created, by whoever created or instituted it, religion or not, to uphold „love” or whatever poetic crap ?

Love (it is a proven fact, over and over) doesn't last very long. The rest of a marriage (if it's not broken right there and then after the love is gone, like it's happening more and more often nowadays in the „civilised” West) is interest, and the preservation of it. The interest to see your children grown up and settled down, the interest to have someone to lean on in times of need and not get an ulcer because you don't have anyone to ask for help, and so on.

Ouch, your sole is as dark as your avatar. I'm afraid you never really loved anyone. You are either too young or had really bad experiences. Sorry to hear that.

 

[nurset]

Hey nurset, what do you think about Women Rights movement and emancipation 100 years ago? After all it was a radical idea, going against old tradition, against traditional values, against church position, and many called women incapable of making their own decisions or political thoughts, working outside the home was called distraction of family, and all the movement was called immoral and satanic, marxist or masonic idea.
Well, sound familiar? And look, the world didn't collapse.
It was only scary for people because it was something new and different.

LeBrok, actually this question was well discussed in mass media, different magazines, talk shows... I have already said my view. See Overton technology. The society gradually accepted women's rights and the “world didn't collapse”. Being a woman I totally support this historical step made by civilization.
But I wonder how our society was manipulated by Vatican that women were just men's slaves and housekeepers. Who were women before church updated the Bible in their interest? They had equal rights with men!
We should look deeper into the problem. We should find its roots and everything become clear.

 

[hope]

Being a woman I totally support this historical step made by civilization.

.
Why?

Who were women before church updated the Bible in their interest? They had equal rights with men!
We should look deeper into the problem. We should find its roots and everything become clear.

Now, now, nurset, you can`t have it both ways. You can`t give the impression of approving those firm christian traditions who are against gay union, as you did in post 1 and then slam those same christian traditions when they go against what you personally believe in....standing on thin ice and cherry picking comes to mind.

 

[FBS]

Just a food for thought:

One thing bugs me really, regarding the Abrahamic religions. Why is there such a deep hatred at the core of them against the women? Why did the church declare that Maria Magdalena was a whore???And why should catholic priests and nuns (including Pope) not get married? Undercover gay? Hm....Same goes for the Muslims, in Pakistan for eg you can see men holding hands but it is forbidden by law to see the opposite sex holding hands in public and kissing, not even dare to think a bout it?

So, I have come to the conclusion that man love towards another man (and adoration) is quite amazing. Even the percentages of gay man are higher globally then of women. All these "all men clubs", "all men societies", "let us keep women away", "let us not allow them to vote ore run a country", "let us have them covered" so that men do not get astray and love a woman, God forbid...quite funny isn't it?

 

[nurset]

.
Now, now, nurset, you can`t have it both ways. You can`t give the impression of approving those firm christian traditions who are against gay union, as you did in post 1 and then slam those same christian traditions when they go against what you personally believe in....standing on thin ice and cherry picking comes to mind.

I believe only in myself. My personal view is that homosexual love is unacceptable. Just imagine how homosexual parents will grow their children if they ever have children. I stand for traditional family. LGBT members could do whatever they want but they should leave our children. Gay propaganda should be restricted.

 

[FBS]

I believe only in myself. My personal view is that homosexual love is unacceptable. Just imagine how homosexual parents will grow their children if they ever have children. I stand for traditional family. LGBT members could do whatever they want but they should leave our children. Gay propaganda should be restricted.

Traditional family, where dad is forbidden to tell that is gay, and will torture his wife and kids because being gay is forbidden! If gay is wrong why would God make such a mistake in the first place by having them among us? Isn't' everything created by God? So you are against God as well as everyone else in this world. Sounds like full blown ego to me...

At the end of the day we are what we are, and when we try to get in someone elses' business we loose, because we do not live our own lives since we are consumed with hatred towards a certain group of people by wanting to tell others how should they be. Get a life...live your own life, and let others be.

 

[hope]

I believe only in myself. My personal view is that homosexual love is unacceptable. Just imagine how homosexual parents will grow their children if they ever have children. I stand for traditional family. LGBT members could do whatever they want but they should leave our children. Gay propaganda should be restricted.

Self belief is an important thing, nurset.
Sometimes it is hard to believe in yourself. Some people can have trouble with this, such as if they are made to feel different, have nothing to offer, or are unworthy of things. So by all means believe in yourself, but allow others the same right to do so,without placing negative "tags" on them.
We all of us have opinions on what we personally see as right or wrong. However we should take care we don`t fall into the false thought that, what we think is right, is what others should likewise, see as right. If this were to be the case, we women may not have obtained our rights of sexual equality , for we know there were many who, for the reasons they believed in, thought it wrong.

 

[LeBrok]

I believe only in myself. My personal view is that homosexual love is unacceptable. Just imagine how homosexual parents will grow their children if they ever have children.

Do you know that your personal views on gays might be as wrong as catholic church on treatment of women? That's why we should put some facts forward, if not full science, basing our conclusions more empirically than our imagination and fears. Don't you think?
I'll ask you again, how do you know that gays will raise their kids wrong way? Do you know personally any gay couple raising kids?
Befor women's equal rights many men believed it was wrong, against traditional family, and confusing for women.

I stand for traditional family

Please explain what traditional family you mean? From 1960s? From 1800s? or something else? Family from 60s was very modern when compared to Victorian times. It is only traditional fro you because you grew up in this time period, I suppose. (there is also a psychological reason why we like the world of our childhood the best) By no means it was some kind of universal standard which lasted from creation of the world. It was very progressive with women equal rights and equal right for other races (in USA mixed race families started to be acceptable).

 

[Ike]

Traditional family, where dad is forbidden to tell that is gay, and will torture his wife and kids because being gay is forbidden! If gay is wrong why would God make such a mistake in the first place by having them among us? Isn't' everything created by God? So you are against God as well as everyone else in this world. Sounds like full blown ego to me..

Why do we have schizos, paranoids or criminally insane people? God made them all. That doesn't mean it's normal and that society should fulfill every caprice of the deviants.

 

[LeBrok]

Why do we have schizos, paranoids or criminally insane people? God made them all. That doesn't mean it's normal and that society should fulfill every caprice of the deviants.

That's true. On what scale then did you measure that gay behaviour or rights is negative for society? Do you have any empirical evidence or only your imagination and fear of anything different than you grew up with?
Could you define your definition of normal please?
And pay attantion that we are not talking about pedofilia, canibalizm or psychopathic torture.

 

[kamani]

Society has much more serious problems than a few sexually different people. This topic always gets attention way out of proportion. For the sake of the truth however, they are very dangerous towards each-other because a large percentage of them has the HIV virus. Who is really dangerous for society is a promiscuous bisexual male, because he can carry HIV from the gay community to the straight one.

 

[FBS]

Why do we have schizos, paranoids or criminally insane people? God made them all. That doesn't mean it's normal and that society should fulfill every caprice of the deviants.

Are you saying that God allmighty can make mistakes? Are you judging Gods work? That sounds like blasphemy.

 

[Anton Bear's den]

After reading nurset's comments I wanna go to German Hospital

Women looks too beautiful in our century to be gay

 

[Ike]

That's true. On what scale then did you measure that gay behaviour or rights is negative for society? Do you have any empirical evidence or only your imagination and fear of anything different than you grew up with?
Could you define your definition of normal please?
And pay attantion that we are not talking about pedofilia, canibalizm or psychopathic torture.

Why not? Why are you always looking things black and white from sociological point of view. We are all humans. Some of us would like to have sex with 20 year old girls, some of with 17, some of us are attracted to 14teen year olds, and some dream of certain 10 year olds. That all doesn't necessarily mean they'll make it happen. Some think it's wrong and suppress their desires, some are aware it's against the law and don't do it for that reason.

Any pedophilia would be perfectly legal on a deserted island with only two inhabitants who are in consensual sexual relationship. What makes it illegal is the presence of the society around. But whether illegal or not, it still doesn't make it normal. Pedophilia was legal in Ancient Greece. Do you think it was normal behavior?

Normal and deviant are defined with Gaussian bell curve. Abnormal is what makes you uncomfortable. I don't know if your joking with me here or there is something wrong with you, if you don't feel the need to vomit on the sight of two males touching each other for sexual pleasure.

Are you saying that God allmighty can make mistakes? Are you judging Gods work? That sounds like blasphemy.

Never have I said those are his mistakes. I'm sure that he, if he exists, would know a perfectly good reasons why they are here.

 

[LeBrok]

Why not? Why are you always looking things black and white from sociological point of view. We are all humans. Some of us would like to have sex with 20 year old girls, some of with 17, some of us are attracted to 14teen year olds, and some dream of certain 10 year olds. That all doesn't necessarily mean they'll make it happen. Some think it's wrong and suppress their desires, some are aware it's against the law and don't do it for that reason.

The age of consent is a fairly new rule. In times of "traditional families" girls were married at 15 and sometimes at 13 (still in India). In today's world I prefer if we use empirical evidence to set rules and ethics, with as much dose of social liberties as possible. I would gladly move age of consent for first sex till age 21, but this is my opinion. I don't believe there was any research done on this topic to set things right.

Any pedophilia would be perfectly legal on a deserted island with only two inhabitants who are in consensual sexual relationship. What makes it illegal is the presence of the society around. But whether illegal or not, it still doesn't make it normal. Pedophilia was legal in Ancient Greece. Do you think it was normal behavior?

I guess you are helping my argument. You were the one who wanted to judge morality on scale of normal behaviour. I want to use empirical evidence if it is harmful to society or not. So far gay marriage and adoption of children passes the test.

Normal and deviant are defined with Gaussian bell curve. Abnormal is what makes you uncomfortable. I don't know if your joking with me here or there is something wrong with you, if you don't feel the need to vomit on the sight of two males touching each other for sexual pleasure.

Yes I twitch when two guys are kissing in front of me. It doesn't mean this type of behavior is harmful for my society. I also twitch and can't swallow dishes made of cow's tongue or monkey brain. It doesn't mean that these things are not nutritional and good for me. It might be the thing that, in both cases I'm against psychological block in my head of something I'm not used to, something new, something different. By these examples, we can assume that in either case my feelings don't make me right or wrong, neither in culinary nor ethical sense.

 

[Ike]

I guess you are helping my argument. You were the one who wanted to judge morality on scale of normal behaviour. I want to use empirical evidence if it is harmful to society or not. So far gay marriage and adoption of children passes the test.

What test? Who set the rules? The need for the test is only for the ones who think that activity is normal and are aiming to prove that consecutive practice will produce normal results. I don't care about the outcome of the test. I'm saying that those activities are abnormal despite the results of any tests. Why? Because it's just disgusting. Fore details see example below, and I'm certain you too would come out with many more similar disgusting, immoral or 'plain wrong' examples.

Yes I twitch when two guys are kissing in front of me. It doesn't mean this type of behavior is harmful for my society. I also twitch and can't swallow dishes made of cow's tongue or monkey brain. It doesn't mean that these things are not nutritional and good for me. It might be the thing that, in both cases I'm against psychological block in my head of something I'm not used to, something new, something different. By these examples, we can assume that in either case my feelings don't make me right or wrong, neither in culinary nor ethical sense.

So, I guess you would also twitch when you see a man eating his excrements, but you are too open minded to stand against that abnormal but yet legal activity?

 

[Maleth]

What test? Who set the rules? The need for the test is only for the ones who think that activity is normal and are aiming to prove that consecutive practice will produce normal results. I don't care about the outcome of the test. I'm saying that those activities are abnormal despite the results of any tests. Why? Because it's just disgusting. Fore details see example below, and I'm certain you too would come out with many more similar disgusting, immoral or 'plain wrong' examples.




So, I guess you would also twitch when you see a man eating his excrements, but you are too open minded to stand against that abnormal but yet legal activity?

I am a homosexual I had a partner for the last 14 years and we dont eat excrement and have respectable jobs. I find your remarks very offensive and do you have any particular reason for spewing all this hate? what is your agenda?!!!

 

[LeBrok]

I am a homosexual I had a partner for the last 14 years and we dont eat excrement and have respectable jobs. I find your remarks very offensive and do you have any particular reason for spewing all this hate? what is your agenda?!!!

He has a general dislike for anything not resembling the world of his youth. His flag says Yugoslavia, it denotes super conservatism and romanticizing the past. I'm not sure about Yugoslavia in particular, but usually communist regimes denied existence of homosexuality in their countries, only a product of sick and rotting western world, or admitted existence but made it an antisocial and criminal activity. He grew up in such homophobic climate and as super conservative is incapable of accepting any changes

 

[LeBrok]

What test? Who set the rules? The need for the test is only for the ones who think that activity is normal and are aiming to prove that consecutive practice will produce normal results. I don't care about the outcome of the test. I'm saying that those activities are abnormal despite the results of any tests. Why? Because it's just disgusting. Fore details see example below, and I'm certain you too would come out with many more similar disgusting, immoral or 'plain wrong' examples.
If I got it right, you don't care what science might conclude or basic statistics, and you go with your sense of taste as ultimate guidance of morality. You would be a perfect dictator, lol.

So, I guess you would also twitch when you see a man eating his excrements, but you are too open minded to stand against that abnormal but yet legal activity?

Why should you? It is legal, and in some cases a medical need, if your own bacterial flora is destroyed. Are you saying you would criminalized eating excrements? Normal people wouldn't even consider moving a finger for such marginal thing. Do you think this activity will be contagious and destructive enough and lead to demise of society?