Massive migration from the steppe - extended discussion

[MOESAN]

I'm trying to keep it joyful and fun as possible.

proto-Aryans = Mitanni (descendants of the Sumerians). Mitanni (Medes) migrated into SouthCentral Asia and found BMAC! East Iranid race from BMAC invaded Indian Peninsula. It's a fact that a race from BMAC invaded India! Has nothing to do Sintashta...

R1a moved from the Iranian Plateau and migrated into the Steppes. Oldest R1a subclades has been found in West Asia, there is also the most diversity of R1a. In the Steppes it mixed heavily with Finno-Ugrid, Mongoloid and Europoid races. Never forget that the South was always much more populated than North.


First chariots came from the Mesopotamia. Sumerians chariots were much older than modern Iranid (Aryan = Mitanni & Medes) chariots. Sumerians were (for a huge part) ancestors of the Iranid (Aryan) race.



http://sumerianshakespeare.com/84201.html

Is this a joke? I ask because I 'm not sure.
-From what I red Mitanni would be newcmers in Near-East about the 1600 BC and not Sumerians descendants. THeir age of apparition doesn't correspond to the proto-I-Ean times.
-I don't see any objection about a Near-East civilisation influences on the Steppes at more than a time.
-But concerning India as the theories stay between 2 and 5 big moves into from South Central Asia it I wait the winner of the scientists competition to make my mind (I'm an amateur).
-for Y-R1a the current localization of its greater variance in Iran doesn't prove it has always been so. Surely, if not iranian, it came from some place not too far but... And ancient and high variance haplo DNA in a place doesn't prove the bulk of the newer and less variated SNPs did not form elsewhere; some surveys indicate rather a Central Asia position for the most of Z93. The privders of today India Z93 can come as well from Central Asia as from Iran or elsewhere S-West...

 

[johen]

It's a fact that a race from BMAC invaded India!
R1a moved from the Iranian Plateau and migrated into the Steppes.
First chariots came from the Mesopotamia.

- Problem is when Sumerian domesticated horse and when west Asians had lactose tolerance gene. Yamna culture had both of them around 3,500BC

- Another problem is :

“Prehistorically, the Sumerians were not aboriginal to Mesopotamia. Their native hearth is unknown. Speaking an agglutinative tongue showing affinities, on one hand, with the Uralo-Altaic languages (Balto-Finnish, Hungarian, Volgaic, Uralien, Samoyuedic, Turkish, Mongolian, and Eskimo) and, on the other hand, with the Dravidian tounges of India, the Pelasgian of pre-Homeric Greece, Georgian of the Caucasus, and Basque of the Pyrenes,they had arrived apparently c.3500 B.C. to find the river lands already accupied by an advanced Neolithic, farming and cattle-raising population known to science as the Ubaidian (also, Proto-Euphratean), [...].” (Joseph Campbell, The Mythic Dimension, New World Library, 2008, p.122)"

- However, botai culture

The world's first broncobusters, it seems, hailed from Central Asia. New research proves that herders from the steppes were the first to tame horses 5,500 years ago. Since the 1990s, horse bones have been unearthed at the site of Botai, a village in what is now northern Kazakhstan that was occupied from 3700 to 3100 B.C. But a new analysis of bones, teeth, and pottery sherds leaves no question that the people of Botai practiced horse husbandry.

Using a newly refined method of stable isotope analysis, the researchers detected horse milk on pottery sherds from Botai. In the past, it had been difficult to distinguish between horse-meat fats and milk fats on pottery. Horses were hunted by the nomadic tribes of the steppes, so the presence of meat fat would tell the scholars little. On the other hand, milk fat could only come from domesticated horses. "It is inconceivable that anyone would milk a wild mare," says Olsen.

1. All things happened around 3,500BC

2. More interesting thing is botai might be connected to Andronovo (Aryan)

Thus the spreading of the Surtanda culture to the east up to the basin of the Irtysh River seems very probable (Fig. 24.11). We gave the reasons for it earlier. It is interesting that the sites of the Makhandgar and Botai type are dated mainly to the third millennium BP, whereas the sites on the banks of the lake belonging to the Surtanda culture are dated earlier (fifth millennium BP, according to C-14). This dating for the earlier sites is confirmed by the chronology of the lower layer of Berezki settlement (around 7600±200). Thus two periods of development can be distinguished in the Surtanda culture. The first can be called the lake period (late fifth-fourth millennium BP). The second period is the steppe period (third millennium BC, at Botai, Makhandgar). In the second period, at the beginning of an ecological crisis (second millennium bp), the Petrov and Alakul (Andron) cultures of the Bronze Age were formed.

--> So starting point of yamna and india (or sumer?) might be Botai region considering three of maps also

1. Botai region

2. oct.2013: Using HSV-1 genome phylogenetics to track past human migrations.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3797750/

3. oct.2015: Reconstructing Genetic History of Siberian and Northeastern European Populations :
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...29421.full.pdf

 

[MOESAN]

@Johen
Thanks for post
the last map seems a bit curious concerning HGs of North and Central Europe - as if they were not from the same stock (at least partly) as their "Europeans"...?

concerning languages, the fact of sharing agglutinative structures does not prove a tight recent link between concerned languages. I red somewhere legends said Sumerians were foreigners in Mesopotamia, arrived by sea. I know nothing more (It spite me). The tentatives to make of sumerian a proto-proto-I-Ean language had not convinced the mainstream science. I would have been glad to read the sumerian was close to finnic-ugric languages but I did not red it yet. It could have explained a lot of things and resolved some basic questions concerning I-Eans.

 

[Tomenable]

when west Asians had lactose tolerance gene. Yamna culture had both of them around 3,500 BC

Houston, we have a problem - Yamna people did not have lactose tolerance gene, according to Mathieson:

Lactase Persistence and ancient DNA by Iain Mathieson

"(...) We didn’t find any evidence for LP in early farming populations like the LBK, or in early Bronze age steppe populations like the Yamnaya. In as-yet unreported data, we find a few copies of the allele in the Srubnaya - a later steppe population (...)"

So Yamnaya people could not actually drink milk in adulthood. Some of Corded Ware people - on the other hand - could.

Lactase Persistence was surely present (= green colour) in Battle Axe, Corded Ware, Bell Beaker, Kyjatice and Srubnaya:

Northern_LNBA = Battle Axe
Central_LNBA = Corded Ware
Hungary_BA = Kyjatice culture

More on the issue of lactase persistence here:

Human adaptation and population differentiation : Nature Communications : Nature Publishing Group

They suugest that LP probably originated in LBK culture, but selection sweep was only later.

In other words it was probably present in LBK population but still at low frequency.

 

[johen]

@Johen
Thanks for post
the last map seems a bit curious concerning HGs of North and Central Europe - as if they were not from the same stock (at least partly) as their "Europeans"...?

concerning languages, the fact of sharing agglutinative structures does not prove a tight recent link between concerned languages. I red somewhere legends said Sumerians were foreigners in Mesopotamia, arrived by sea. I know nothing more (It spite me). The tentatives to make of sumerian a proto-proto-I-Ean language had not convinced the mainstream science. I would have been glad to read the sumerian was close to finnic-ugric languages but I did not red it yet. It could have explained a lot of things and resolved some basic questions concerning I-Eans.

sorry, I have no information.

 

[johen]

"(...) We didn’t find any evidence for LP in early farming populations like the LBK, or in early Bronze age steppe populations like the Yamnaya. In as-yet unreported data, we find a few copies of the allele in the Srubnaya - a later steppe population (...)"

So Yamnaya people could not actually drink milk in adulthood. Some of Corded Ware people - on the other hand - could.

Lactase Persistence was surely present (= green colour) in Battle Axe, Corded Ware, Bell Beaker, Kyjatice and Srubnaya:

True, when did it happen?

We also demonstrate that light skin pigmentation in Europeans
was already present at high frequency in the Bronze Age, but not lactose tolerance, indicating a more recent onset of
positive selection on lactose tolerance than previously thought.

--> I think horse domestication and horse riding was revolution around 3,500bc, like a train in industrial revolution and modern internet to concur a distance between humans

See two maps:

If ANE people migrated from Iran plateu to Yamna around 3,500 BC, sumer and yamna culture would be similar.

However,
- both Yamna and sumer had a wheel, and

they had arrived apparently c.3500 B.C. to find the river lands already accupied by an advanced Neolithic, farming and cattle-raising population known to science as the Ubaidian

So the following route would be correct and botai would play a great role in Yamna and (sumer?)

The above map also looks like representing comb ceramic route from Finland to Korea:

--> They might freely ride on horses thru the route. And EEF also might migrate from Gemany (Harz area) to Korea 7,000 years ago thru this route. And domen people also might migrate from Irend (oldest one : 4,000bc) to Korea(3,000bc), see the dolmen zone in the world.

 

[Goga]

- Problem is when Sumerian domesticated horse and when west Asians had lactose tolerance gene. Yamna culture had both of them around 3,500BC

- Another problem is :


- However, botai culture


1. All things happened around 3,500BC

2. More interesting thing is botai might be connected to Andronovo (Aryan)



--> So starting point of yamna and india (or sumer?) might be Botai region considering three of maps also

1. Botai region

2. oct.2013: Using HSV-1 genome phylogenetics to track past human migrations.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3797750/

3. oct.2015: Reconstructing Genetic History of Siberian and Northeastern European Populations :
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...29421.full.pdf

1. Domestication of horses occured thousands of years before 3500 BC. Even earlier than 7000BC !!! http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14658678
2. What has this to do with lactose tolerance gene? PIE migration happened in two stages. Early PIE and late PIE. Early PIE migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon and gave birth to the most IE languages in Europe. While the original PIE that stayed at home gave birth to the Anatolian, proto-Iranian (Aryan) etc. languages. Lactose tolerance gene could be connected only to Yamnaya, after it mixed with Mongoloid/Uralid folks in the Steppes.

Yamna culture was heavily influenced by the older Maykop 'Kurgan' culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture


But Leyla-Tepe culture is MUCH, MUCH older than Maykop and so called 'Botai' culture.

Leyla-Tepe culture was from 4500 - 4000 B.C.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture



Aryans that invaded the Indian subcontinent invaded it from BMAC and NOT from Andronovo.


Andronovo was NOT Aryan, but
BMAC was Aryan


Iranians = Aryans ...

 

[Goga]

True, when did it happen?


--> I think horse domestication and horse riding was revolution around 3,500bc, like a train in industrial revolution and modern internet to concur a distance between humans


If ANE people migrated from Iran plateu to Yamna around 3,500 BC, sumer and yamna culture would be similar.

However,
- both Yamna and sumer had a wheel, and


So the following route would be correct and botai would play a great role in Yamna and (sumer?)



The above map also looks like representing comb ceramic route from Finland to Korea:


--> They might freely ride on horses thru the route. And EEF also might migrate from Gemany (Harz area) to Korea 7,000 years ago thru this route. And domen people also might migrate from Irend (oldest one : 4,000bc) to Korea(3,000bc), see the dolmen zone in the world.

Dude, what the hell are you talking about?

Domestication of horses happened at least 7000BCE. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14658678


Sumerian civilization is much older than from 3500 BC. Tell Halaf period started at least 6100 BC.

Only the Sumerian writing system evolved around 3500. But that doesn't mean that Sumerians are from 3500 BC. The Sumerian civilization PREDATE their writing system by thousands of years.


Yamnaya evolved from Maykop 'kurgan' culture. Maykop 'kurgan' culture is older than Yamnaya. The Maykop culture gave birth to the Yamnaya culture. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture

BUT the original / early PIE of the Leyla-Tepe culture predate also the Maykop culture. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture



the Sumerian culture:
Tell Halaf period: 6100 BCE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_Halaf
Hassuna culture: 6000 BCE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassuna_culture
Ubaid period: 5300 BCE
Uruk Period: 4100 BCE

About PIE

the Leyla-Tepe culture : 4500 - 4350 BCE - early (original) PIE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture
the Maykop culture : 4000 BCE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture
the Yamnaya culture : 3,500 BCE - late PIE



Also, the Neolithic farmer DNA in the Steppes and East Asia is mostly from the source, the origin of those Neolithic farmers and that origin is in West Asia!

 

[johen]

Dude, what the hell are you talking about?

i JUST SAID:

- If ANE people migrated from Iran plateu to Yamna around 3,500 BC, sumer and yamna culture would be similar.

“Prehistorically, the Sumerians were not aboriginal to Mesopotamia, they had arrived apparently c.3500 B.C. to find the river lands already accupied by an advanced Neolithic, farming and cattle-raising population known to science as the Ubaidian (also, Proto-Euphratean), [...].” (Joseph Campbell, The Mythic Dimension, New World Library, 2008, p.122)"

- So the following route would be correct and botai would play a great role in Yamna and (sumer?)

NO MORE ASSUMPTION

 

[Goga]

Botai what?????

Can we consider those primitives as culture?


High advanced Mesopotamian Tell Halaf & Hassuna predate Botai by thousands of years.

Even what I do consider early PIE ancestral to Yamnaya, the Leyla-Tepe culture, predate Botai by thousands of years.




Btw, the Tell Halaf 8000 years old culture is located in the native homeland of my paternal Y-DNA haplogroup R1a*.

As an Ezdi Kurd my paternal (tribe) roots are in Shingal, Kurdistan.

I'm sure that my personal hg. R1a* has something to do with Tell Halaf culture.

"It has been known for some time that the Sinjar valley belonged to the Northern Ubaid culture. In the Sinjar plain, where Tell Hamoukar is located, civilizations are known to have existed many centuries earlier (Hassuna, Halaf, Ubaid). More than 200 sites are known."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/sinjar.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamoukar

 

[Goga]

i JUST SAID:

- If ANE people migrated from Iran plateu to Yamna around 3,500 BC, sumer and yamna culture would be similar.

- So the following route would be correct and botai would play a great role in Yamna and (sumer?)
NO MORE ASSUMPTION

ANE auDNA on the Iranian Plateau and in North Caucasus is much older than 3500BC. ANE auDNA existed on the Iranian Plateau and in the North Caucasus thousands of years BEFORE the Yamnaya culture ever existed. It predates late PIE in the Yamnaya and has nothing to do with PIE...


However there're connections between the Leyla-Tepe culture, the Mesoptamian cultures, Makop culture and the Yamnaya Horzion culture.

 

[johen]

Botai what?????

Can we consider those primitives as culture?


High advanced Mesopotamian Tell Halaf & Hassuna predate Botai by thousands of years.

Even what I do consider early PIE ancestral to Yamnaya, the Leyla-Tepe culture, predate Botai by thousands of years.




Btw, the Tell Halaf 9000 years old culture is located in the native homeland of my paternal Y-DNA haplogroup R1a*.

As an Ezdi Kurd my paternal (tribe) roots are in Shingal, Kurdistan.

I'm sure that my personal hg. R1a* has something to do with Tell Halaf culture.

"It has been known for some time that the Sinjar valley belonged to the Northern Ubaid culture. In the Sinjar plain, where Tell Hamoukar is located, civilizations are known to have existed many centuries earlier (Hassuna, Halaf, Ubaid). More than 200 sites are known."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/sinjar.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamoukar

are you a teen?

 

[Goga]

are you a teen?

No, I'm 30+


About the Leyla-Tepe culture:

linked to the Mesopotamian cultures (5500BCE):
"The culture has also been linked to the north Ubaid period monuments, in particular, with the settlements in the Eastern Anatolia Region. The settlement is of a typical Western-Asian variety, with the dwellings packed closely together and made of mud bricks with smoke outlets."


linked to Maykop (proto-Yamnaya) culture (4000BCE). Maykop kurgan culture is ancestral to the Yamnaya Horzion culture:
"It has been suggested that the Leyla-Tepe were the founders of the Maykop culture. An expedition to Syria by the Russian Academy of Sciences revealed the similarity of the Maykop and Leyla-Tepe artifacts with those found recently while excavating the ancient city of Tel Khazneh I, from the 4th millennium BC."

http://www.theinfolist.com/php/SummaryGet.php?FindGo=maykop_culture

 

[Goga]

Always remember and NEVER forget that Maykop culture was founded by the Leyla-Tepe culture. Horses and some of the earliest wagon wheels has been found in the kurgans of the Maykop culture:


" HORSE BREEDING


The Maykop people lived sedentary lives, and horses formed a very low percentage of their livestock, which mostly consisted of pigs and cattle. Archaeologists have discovered a unique form of bronze cheek-pieces, which consists of a bronze rod with a twisted loop in the middle and a thread through her nodes that connects with bridle, halter strap and headband. Notches and bumps on the edges of the cheek-pieces were, apparently, to fix nose and under-lip belts.


Some of the earliest wagon wheels in the world are found in Maykop culture area. The two solid wooden wheels from the kurgan of Starokorsunskaya in the Kuban region have been dated to the second half of the fourth millennium. "



IRANIAN ORIGINS

A more recent suggestion, by Mariya Ivanova, is the Maikop origins were on the Iranian Plateau:
"Graves and settlements of the 5th millennium BC in North Caucasus attest to a material culture that was related to contemporaneous archaeological complexes in the northern and western Black Sea region. Yet it was replaced, suddenly as it seems, around the middle of the 4th millennium BC by a “high culture” whose origin is still quite unclear. This archaeological culture named after the great Maikop kurgan showed innovations in all areas which have no local archetypes and which cannot be assigned to the tradition of the Balkan-Anatolian Copper Age. The favoured theory of Russian researchers is a migration from the south originating in the Syro-Anatolian area, which is often mentioned in connection with the socalled “Uruk expansion”. However, serious doubts have arisen about a connection between Maikop and the Syro-Anatolian region. THE FOREIGN OBJECTS IN THE NORTH CAUCASUS REVEAL NO CONNECTION TO THE UPPER REACHES OF THE EUPHRATES AND TIGRIS OR TO THE FLOODPLAINS OF MESOPOTAMIA, BUT RATHER SEEM TO HAVE TIES TO THE IRANIAN PLATEAU AND TO SOUTH CENTRAL ASIA. Recent excavations in the Southwest Caspian Sea region are enabling a new perspective about the interactions between the “Orient” and Continental Europe. On the one hand, it is becoming gradually apparent that a gigantic area of interaction evolved already in the early 4th millennium BC which extended far beyond Mesopotamia; on the other hand, these findings relativise the traditional importance given to Mesopotamia, because innovations originating in Iran and Central Asia obviously spread throughout the Syro-Anatolian region independently thereof"



http://www.theinfolist.com/php/SummaryGet.php?FindGo=maykop_culture

 

[Goga]

I'm just getting tired & sick of the inferiority complex of some folks. The original PIE language was not NATIVE to Europe. The native European folks spoke a different non-IE language and got Indo-Europized. Period!

The science (DNA (migation of R1b from West Asia + West Asian auDNA), archeology (architecture, pottery, artifacts, horse cheek-pieces; Maykop kurgans vs. Yamnaya kurgans), linguistics (ergativity in proto-Iranic (Kurdish, old Persian etc.) and proto-Indic (+current) etc.)) has destroyed racism that is rooted in the inferiority complex, insecurity, hate and fear, FEAR!


Tell Halaf: 6100 BCE ((Anunnaki, alien/extraterrestrial origin??? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anunnaki) :grin: (I believe also the Iranian Plateau origin.)
Hassuna: 6000 BCE
Ubaid: 5500 BCE (Leyla-Tepe/Iranian origin - http://www.theinfolist.com/php/SummaryGet.php?FindGo=maykop_culture)
Leyla-Tepe: 4500 - 4350 BCE
Uruk: 4100 BCE (Leyla-Tepe/Iranian origin)
Maykop: 4000 BCE (Leyla-Tepe/Iranian origin)
Yamnaya: 3500 BCE (Maykop origin)


Time to move on...!

 

[johen]

1. Domestication of horses occured thousands of years before 3500 BC. Even earlier than 7000BC !!! http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14658678

just counter argue against what I argue now. Not the other factors like your ancestor's great history, which will be challenged after I research. ok?

My Argument 1: I cannot find any source to accept as a fact, the article(2011) regarding horse domestication 7000bc.

However, every sources I researched were the same as follows:

However, an increasing amount of evidence supports the hypothesis that horses were domesticated in the Eurasian Steppesapproximately 3500 BCE;^[1][2][3] recent discoveries in the context of the Botai culture suggest that Botai settlements in the Akmola Province ofKazakhstan are the location of the earliest domestication of the horse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse

 

[Goga]

just counter argue against what I argue now. Not the other factors like your ancestor's great history, which will be challenged after I research. ok?

My Argument 1: I cannot find any source to accept as a fact, the article regarding horse domestication 7000bc.

However, every sources I researched were the same as follows:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse

Which sources? You're looking for the wrong sources.

Well that wiki article is plain wrong and deliberately ignoring the findings of horse domestication in Arabia 9000 years ago. Or even ignoring Maykop findings. Since when is wiki the most evidence-based source of knowledge? Everybody can write in that article. And it's wrong.


But hey, using the same wiki source it is also written on the Maykop page:


" Horse breeding

The Maykop people lived sedentary lives, and horses formed a very low percentage of their livestock, which mostly consisted of pigs and cattle. Archaeologists have discovered a unique form of bronze cheek-pieces, which consists of a bronze rod with a twisted loop in the middle and a thread through her nodes that connects with bridle, halter strap and headband. Notches and bumps on the edges of the cheek-pieces were, apparently, to fix nose and under-lip belts.^[5]

Radiocarbon dates for various monuments of the Maykop culture are from 3950 - 3650 - 3610 - 2980 calBC "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture

It is originally from this book: Мунчаев Р. М. Бронзовые псалии майкопской культуры и проблема возникновения коневодства на Кавказе,«Кавказ и Восточная Европа в древности», М.,1973.



Maykop is older than Botai. And there was already horse-breeding in the Maykop culture before Botai. Maykop domesticated already horses before Botai.

Maykop = 4000 BCE (radiocarbon dates one of the extant monuments to 3950 BCE), same age as Uruk in Mesopotamia
Botai horses = 3500 BCE




But FIRST domestication of horses is even much older than Maykop. The oldest known to us yet, is 9000 years ago.


“This discovery shows that horses were domesticated in the Arabian Peninsula for the first time more than 9,000 years ago,” said al-Ghabban. “Previous studies estimated the domestication of horses in Central Asia dating back 5,000 years.”

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...aim-earliest-evidence-of-horse-domestication/

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-archaeology-idUSTRE77N5TL20110824



“ The al-Maqar civilisation is a very advanced civilization of the Neolithic period. This site shows us clearly, the roots of the domestication of horses 9,000 years ago,” he added. "

http://ancient-cultures.info/attachments/File/NEW_al_Magar.pdf

 

[johen]

Which sources? You're looking for the wrong sources.

hey, I found good one.

Prehistoric genomes reveal the genetic foundation and cost of horse domestication(0ct/2014)

The domestication of the horse revolutionized warfare, trade, and the exchange of people and ideas. This at least 5,500-y-long process, which ultimately transformed wild horses into the hundreds of breeds living today, is difficult to reconstruct from archeological data and modern genetics alone.

The domestication of the horse ∼5.5 kya and the emergence of mounted riding, chariotry, and cavalry dramatically transformed human civilization. However, the genetics underlying horse domestication are difficult to reconstruct, given the near extinction of wild horses. We therefore sequenced two ancient horse genomes from Taymyr, Russia (at 7.4- and 24.3-fold coverage), both predating the earliest archeological evidence of domestication.

http://www.pnas.org/content/111/52/E5661.abstract

 

[Goga]

hey, I found good one.

Prehistoric genomes reveal the genetic foundation and cost of horse domestication(0ct/2014)


http://www.pnas.org/content/111/52/E5661.abstract

Bro, is this a joke? They say nothing about the Botai. I read the article and it's stated nowhere that horse domestication started in Kazakhstan (among proto-Turkic Botai people).

Maykop is older than Botai. It is possible that Maykop culture introduced horse domestication to proto-Turkic Botai people.

It's quite possible that R1b folks from Maykop who migrated into the Yamnaya Horizon introduced horse domestication in the Steppes very early in history. Or horse domestication could be introduced from the Iranian Plateau in the Steppes earlier via the eastern side of the Caspian Sea.

Also, they only tested the Russian horses, while we have proof that horses also existed in SouthWest Asia many thousands of years ago. And they even conclude that Russian 'wild' horses are not even directly related to the 'domesticated' horses. That means that the first horses that were domesticated were NOT the wild 'Russian' one, but distantly related to them. Modern domesticated horses are NOT native to Russia. So it quit possible that the domesticated horses in the Steppes came from the Iranian Plateau or much further away.


And look what they wrote, that "the earliest potential evidence for horse domestication could be ca. 7.5 kya." (page 1-2). That's thousands of years before Botai!


" Przewalski’s horse, the last truly wild horse population remaining today, is not the direct ancestor of domesticated horses (7, 8). Instead, it likely represents a sister population that separated from the ancestral population of domesticated horses some 38–72 kya (9). This date significantly predates not only the widely accepted date for the beginning of horse domestication, ca. 5.5 kya (2), but also the earliest potential evidence for horse domestication, ca. 7.5 kya (10). In addition, the current Przewalski’s horse population descends from a captive stock consisting of only 13 founder individuals (7). This severe demographic bottleneck, together with inbreeding resulting from unequal contributions from different captive lineages, likely caused a substantial loss of the diversity once present in Przewalski’s horses. As a result, no modern horse population can fully represent the genetic diversity ancestral to the modern, domesticated gene pool (11–13). "

 

[Alan]

Some people just don't use logic.

R Haplogroups are ultimately connected to ANE like ancestry.

EHG has ~40% ANE like ancestry.
CHG has ~35% ANE like ancestry.

Think about this for a minute.