Mezolithic-Neolithic vs. Chalcolithic-Early Iron Age Y-DNA landscape of Europe

[bicicleur 2]

That seems quite a plausible connection now you mention it.

#

edit:

burning house horizon article, ty

75-80 year cycle speaks against soil exhaustion as a reason so i'll scratch that theory

the domicide idea - cremating the house - sounds plausible

it's interesting how they got the fire to burn hot enough to fire the clay - my first thought was if the whole town was set on fire and the houses were all close together maybe that created a fire storm?

the second thought was your kiln comment - not sure how it could be achieved but somehow walling the house in like it was in a kiln

(thinking aloud)

edit2:

although my heart belongs to half-yeti mammoth hunters my head is very impressed with Cucuteni

maybe they turned the house itself into a kiln before setting it to fire
the walls were allready mud-plastered
if you would plaster the roof as well, you would have a large kiln

 

[arvistro]

What about mold on walls?
It may turn into a deadly thing for your lungs.

 

[MOESAN]

The HG lifestyle often involves following animals for days, weeks or months before you catch and kill them.

"Doing fun stuff for a few hours then sleeping" is not always the case. Try to survive as a hunter-gatherer for several months.


"Patience, hard work, looking ahead" are not the stereotypical traits typically ascribed to, say, Medieval peasants.



You place too much stress on genetics and not enough on cultural factors - such as social disruption and moral depression, as described here:

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b4381154;view=1up;seq=104

By the way - "forceful indoctrination in Western lifestyle" is the main problem here. People always resist forceful indoctrination of any kind. Living in part of Europe where there was not so long ago forceful indoctrination in Communist lifestyle and ideology, I know that people resisted that indoctrination.

I agree with the good sense of all of your precisions
more: I'm not sure the first ways of life and activities of early Farmers were so different from the HG's ones- concerning body work, continual short local moves can produce a not too different work and results on body as long distances moves to track preys - the supposed effects (gracilization) of sedentization (not proved) and farming are only supposed. we saw yet partly gracilization of Western Europe Mesolithic HGs without knowing the cause(s). I think in crossings with southeastern people begun before offical Neolithic and maybe a general trend affecting the genome, based upon hazard mutations and better adaptation to new environment, even a social/cultural change favorizing dversification of skills can lead to less felt need of seldom big dominant polygame males so less selection in favor of big bodies??? only speculation this last argument!

 

[Tomenable]

wikipedia states that Lusatian was influenced by both Treznic and Tumulus though

Tumulus preceded Lusatian. Tumulus expanded (either from the west or from the south) into Unetice culture.

Later Lusatian evolved from Trzciniec and expanded westward into Tumulus.

In general it seems that west-east and east-west migrations were very frequent in Centra Europe's prehistory.

 

[Tomenable]

From Corded Ware and Unetice cultures we have so far: R1a, I2, G and J.

No R1b from those cultures.

 

[Maleth]

From Corded Ware and Unetice cultures we have so far: R1a, I2, G and J.

No R1b from those cultures.

according to Eupidia Haplogroup chart there seems to be R1b but no G

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/corded_ware_culture.shtml

 

[Tomenable]

according to Eupidia Haplogroup chart there seems to be R1b but no G

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/corded_ware_culture.shtml

Then Eupedia has it wrong - that R1b1b2 (Y-DNA) + I1a1 (mtDNA) guy belonged to Bell Beaker, not to Corded Ware:

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

The other guy mentioned by Eupedia - R1b (Y-DNA) + K1 (mtDNA) - was from the Bell Beaker cultural context as well:

Perhaps you should tell Maciamo (or whoever is responsible for updating Eupedia's article on CW culture) about this mistake?

but no G

One sample of G was found in Poland in Corded Ware burials from the site at Jagodno, near Wroclaw, from ca. 2800 BC:

 

[Tomenable]

Check the map that I posted on page 7 - all R1b and R1a samples mentioned by Eupedia in that link are also on the map:

http://s24.postimg.org/tbvhtfpcl/R1a_vs_R1b.png

Central Germany (just west of the Elbe) apparently was the borderland of R1b (to the west) and R1a (to the east) in Copper-Bronze Ages. But although intermingled in that area, those HGs were found in different cultural contexts - R1b in Bell Beaker, R1a in Corded Ware:

CW = Corded Ware cultures
BB = Bell Beaker cultures
Urn = Urnfield cultures
Lus = Lusatian Culture

Red circle = one sample of R1a
Blue circle = one sample of R1b

ybp = sample age (years before present)

Central Germany was actually the area where both Bell Beaker and Corded Ware cultures extended:

1) Corded Ware cultures:

2) Bell Beaker cultures:

The oldest findings of Bell Beakers according to this map were in Northern Italy and / or Iberia (?):

=================================

One theory says that Bell Beaker cultures originally expanded from Iberia:

Though other theories maintain that it expanded from the Netherlands or West-Central Europe (West Germany?):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#Origins

"(...) There have been numerous proposals by archaeologists as to the origins of the Bell Beaker culture, and debates continued on for decades. Several regions of origin have been postulated, notably the Iberian peninsula, the Netherlands and Central Europe. Similarly, scholars have postulated various mechanisms of spread, including migrations of populations ("folk migrations"), smaller warrior groups, individuals (craftsmen), or a diffusion of ideas and object exchange. (...)"

 

[Tomenable]

As for Scandinavia:

It seems that I1 was brought to Scandinavia by Non-Indo-European Neolithic farmers from the northern group of TRB culture (Funnel Beaker farmers), who replaced Pitted Ware hunters (I2). R1a-Z284 and R1a-L664 arrived there with Indo-Europeans of Corded Ware cultures. Finally, R1b (probably U106) came with Bell Beakers (who were especially active in Denmark, much less active farther north).

R1a arriving first and R1b arriving later could also explain the current distribution (peak of R1a in Norway, peak of R1b in Denmark).

Even more R1b could later come during the process of so called latenization (Jastorf culture underwent latenization):

Latenization - an archaeological term referring to the diffusion of the Celtic culture called after the Swiss site of La Tène.

Strong Celtic influences are also visible in PGMC (Proto-Germanic) language.

PGMC terms for 'ruler/king', 'kingdom', 'iron', 'medic', 'mail shirt', 'town', etc. were loanwords from Celtic according to Donald Ringe.

In early written sources we also find suspiciously many leaders of Germanic tribes, who had names of Celtic origin (Boiorix, Lugins, Claodicus, Ceasorix, Marbod and famous Ariovistus - all of these personal names appear to be of Celtic linguistic origin).

=====================================

Why do I think that I1 came to Scandinavia with Neolithic TRB farmers ???

Because a sample of I1 was found in LBK culture (Neolithic farmers), from which TRB later evolved.

Of course not entire TRB was I1, but the northernmost group of TRB could become I1 due to a founder effect.

So far all samples of Swedish hunters (Pitted Ware culture and earlier hunter cultures) have been I2.

 

[MOESAN]

Tumulus preceded Lusatian. Tumulus expanded (either from the west or from the south) into Unetice culture.

Later Lusatian evolved from Trzciniec and expanded westward into Tumulus.

In general it seems that west-east and east-west migrations were very frequent in Centra Europe's prehistory.

the tumulus groups seem being come from South and Southwest (Bohemia, S-Moravia, through Moravia, as did the first "ethnic" Urnfields groups (from Hungary?)- Trzciniec, according to Wikipedia, formed upon ancient territories of 3 considered 'Corded' groups of Poland, and it seems to me it was "Urnfieldized" as well as Tumuli groups - the expansion westwards seem a second development after Lusacian if I red well dates - by the way, even if anecdotic, some skeletons of sparse Urnfields settlements in France showed the so called 'corded' types of Coon, that said for people according some credit to physical anthropology... a provenance from N-E Germany is not discarded by the fact in later development of Urnfields, what is not new it's true.

 

[MOESAN]

the Y-R1b><R1a distribution in Eneolithic-Early Bronze Age in North germany is interesting: it's a pity we have not denser Y-DNA with deeper clades,so we do bets.
it seems genuine Corded people were for the most Y-R1a people when BBs or "BBs" were Y-R1b -
better resolution is needed here: I feel Y-R1b of Last Corded or Corded-first Urnfield transition of Germany were tather U106 ones when the BBs or Beakerized ones were more L11-U152 (more U152 oriented). Concerning Unetice, the sample of Y-DNA is very very meager! No reasonable bet here.

 

[Fluffy]

Then Eupedia has it wrong - that R1b1b2 (Y-DNA) + I1a1 (mtDNA) guy belonged to Bell Beaker, not to Corded Ware:

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

The other guy mentioned by Eupedia - R1b (Y-DNA) + K1 (mtDNA) - was from the Bell Beaker cultural context as well:

Perhaps you should tell Maciamo (or whoever is responsible for updating Eupedia's article on CW culture) about this mistake?



One sample of G was found in Poland in Corded Ware burials from the site at Jagodno, near Wroclaw, from ca. 2800 BC:

Thanks Tomenable. This G from Poland at a Corded Ware site often gets overlooked. DNA doesn't lie. And no it isn't remains of the Neolithic.

 

[Fire Haired14]

Ancient West Eurasian Y DNA.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12G2cfjG0wHWarsl5bB99ridFmvUWzqlZfZ6_e_R6oIA/edit#gid=898544046

 

[Tomenable]

And no it isn't remains of the Neolithic.

Why not ??? How do you know this ???

Ancient West Eurasian Y DNA.

Thank you - so Tocharians were not Z93 (!).

This makes Z93 an exclusively (?) Indo-Iranian branch.

What subclade of R1a were the Tocharians?

 

[Tone]

It seems as if they were burning the village in a huge, almost cosmic kiln. Perhaps it had some connection to how integral kilns were to their way of life, not only for making pottery, but for metal-working. Could it have been a way of getting rid of earthly impurities through fire, or transforming earth into something "other"? It seems to me it had to have some sort of ritual significance.

Perhaps. Or maybe the villages burned regularly because, quite simply, out of control fires were a big problem. Tokyo used to burn regularly --- 'The flowers of Edo" is what I believe the Japanese called the fires that used to destroy Tokyo every few decades or so. But who knows....

 

[Tone]

As for Scandinavia:

R1a arriving first and R1b arriving later could also explain the current distribution (peak of R1a in Norway, peak of R1b in Denmark).

Even more R1b could later come during the process of so called latenization (Jastorf culture underwent latenization):

We can only speculate, but I lean more towards r1b coming first from the East via the Yamna Horizon. R1A Corded Ware came a little later from the Northeast. However know one knows at this point.

I'm still not entirely sure that R1B wasn't hiding out in the far NorthWest with hunter gatherers, having arrived from the East via a northern route sometime during the Mesolithic or Neolithic. But I'm just guessing. There sure is alot of R1B on the North Atlantic fringes and we don't have any Mesolithic data yet from that area. The odds are against that of course, but it can't be ruled out until data is retrieved. It's fun to speculate...

 

[Fluffy]

Why not ??? How do you know this ???



Thank you

I don't know for certain. But IMO it was part of Corded Ware rather than the Neolithic because of its location and time frame.

 

[Regio X]

I don't know if you've seen this video before or know about the exhibit. It was called "The Lost World of Old Europe" and David Anthony was the curator. He starts talking at about 2:15. It was a really great exhibit. I think even the catalog is on line.

This is about Cucuteni-Tripolyte, but they do talk about the burning of houses as part of a cremation ritual where the home site was burned to cleanse it for the next occupants. I don't know the source of the claim, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onY1QIv1Fro

I had not seen the videos. Excellent. Thanks for sharing.
8 kybp!? Wow! As old as Vashtëmi (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120416113013.htm).

What did cause the replacement of that very advanced European civilization? Where did that people go, and who they influenced?

Regarding to Y-DNA, here is an interesting article (not linked to the videos): http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2015/03/bottleneck-in-human-y-chromosomes-in.html
I apologize if it has already been shared.

 

[LeBrok]

I had not seen the videos. Excellent. Thanks for sharing.
8 kybp!? Wow! As old as Vashtëmi (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120416113013.htm).

What did cause the replacement of that very advanced European civilization? Where did that people go, and who they influenced?

Regarding to Y-DNA, here is an interesting article (not linked to the videos): http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2015/03/bottleneck-in-human-y-chromosomes-in.html
I apologize if it has already been shared.

IIRC, around year 4,000 BC there was vast depopulation of farming communities in Central Balkans. Most likely caused by cold and dry climate, little ice age, than by invasions. They never came back to the old glory I guess, and soon (1,000 years later) were conquered and partially replaced by IEs. The Neolithic farmer genetic input in Balkans is still strong from 50 to 80%, depending on area. You can say that their children still live among us.

 

[Angela]

I had not seen the videos. Excellent. Thanks for sharing.
8 kybp!? Wow! As old as Vashtëmi (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120416113013.htm).

What did cause the replacement of that very advanced European civilization? Where did that people go, and who they influenced?

Regarding to Y-DNA, here is an interesting article (not linked to the videos): http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2015/03/bottleneck-in-human-y-chromosomes-in.html
I apologize if it has already been shared.

This is David Anthony's take on it:
https://books.google.com/books?id=g...age&q=The End of the Balkan Neolithic&f=false

There are some gaps because of copyright laws, but you'll get the gist. Just go to page 47 and read from there...it's not that long.

According to Evgeni Chernyk, the great expert on the Copper Age, it was "a catastrophe of colossal scope", brought about, in my opinion, by the incursions of the steppe people as a proximate cause, although like the end of the Bronze Age climate change and an agricultural collapse probably weakened the culture...two examples of "perfect storms" in human affairs that brought great civilizations crashing down.