Mezolithic-Neolithic vs. Chalcolithic-Early Iron Age Y-DNA landscape of Europe

In contrast, in a group of HGs, smart hunter, stupid hunter, strong hunter, weak hunter, are rewarded the same amount of food, therefore smart genes are not selected with same strong force as in farmers case.
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I think equal sharing of food, is not exactly equal in amount of food. They don't weigh portions before eating. They all bring food and put it on one pile in a common kitchen. Food is prepared and everybody eats as much as they want from the same source. There is no separate stash for special individuals, there is no preferential treatment of individuals. They are all equal, there is no boss, no shaman, no special status, till the group grows big to hundreds of individuals. Only then special functions are created, by a need of controlling and organizing such big group. Though, in such big groups we will see subgroups, and in these subgroups there will be a common kitchen.
 
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cattel said:
And they would have done that for fertility. It seems that didn't work, since G2a decreasead. :laughing:

One more: http://horizon-magazine.eu/article/...small-bands-fewer-30-brink-extinction_en.html
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Prof. Pinhasi’s team has found that the genomes sequenced from hunter-gatherers from Hungary and Switzerland between 14 000 to 7 500 years ago are very close to specimens from Denmark or Sweden from the same period.
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Will we have some Mezolithic DNA sequenced soon?

So there were very small scattered groups of HGs during Ice Age. I bet they spoke different languages, maybe hundreds of them. There was no one H-G language in prehistoric Europe. Same as scattered Amazon jungle tribes today. Separation produces languages.
 
LeBrok said:
What is with this burning houses and rebuilding. Same like Cucuteni culture. Doing this they wasted time and resources, and never progress to writing and accounting. Should we blame religion for this?
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My pet theory is it may have been connected to stubble-burning where a field is burned after harvest to get rid of weeds and pests. This might create a connection between fire and fertility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stubble_burning

So maybe the practise of stubble-burning fields after harvest led to the idea of cleansing the domestic living space from time to time as well?

Alternatively, (edit: maybe) the

burning houses and rebuilding
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didn't happen straight away i.e. they were semi-nomadic and moved location every 10 years or so when the local soil was exhausted between 4-5 village sites and always came back to the same 4-5 spots?

(i.e. the ones with the best drainage / water supply)
 
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Angela said:
Why would they be burning a home down for fertility? We have no way of knowing what it represented; it could have been a way of marking a death...a passage to a different dimension.

The study about ice age Europeans has nothing to do with G2a.
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Angela, I agree. I just answer jokingly to LeBrok on burning a home down - based on the researchers hypothesis -, as you discussed the G2a population decrease in old Europe (now some branches may be growing).

Of course the Ice Age Europeans study has nothing to do with G2a. It was just another link that I shared, since I had just post one (regarding to a Neolithic village recently revealed).
 
Greying Wanderer said:
My pet theory is it may have been connected to stubble-burning where a field is burned after harvest to get rid of weeds and pests. This might create a connection between fire and fertility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stubble_burning

So maybe the practise of stubble-burning fields after harvest led to the idea of cleansing the domestic living space from time to time as well?

Alternatively, the



didn't happen straight away i.e. they were semi-nomadic and moved location every 10 years or so when the local soil was exhausted between 4-5 village sites and always came back to the same 4-5 spots?

(i.e. the ones with the best drainage / water supply)
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In this particular case, individual homes seem to have been burned at different times.

I think I got the idea about the connection to death from things I've read and videos like this, but your guess is as good as any...
 
cattel said:
Angela, I agree. I just answer jokingly to LeBrok on burning a home down - based on the researchers hypothesis -, as you discussed the G2a population decrease in old Europe (now some branches may be growing).

Of course the Ice Age Europeans study has nothing to do with G2a. It was just another link that I shared, since I had just post one (regarding to a Neolithic village recently revealed).
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cattel said:
Angela, I agree. I just answer jokingly to LeBrok on burning a home down - based on the researchers hypothesis -, as you discussed the G2a population decrease in old Europe (now some branches may be growing).

Of course the Ice Age Europeans study has nothing to do with G2a. It was just another link that I shared, since I had just post one (regarding to a Neolithic village recently revealed).
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No problem, I just didn't understand where you were going with it.

I don't know if you've seen this video before or know about the exhibit. It was called "The Lost World of Old Europe" and David Anthony was the curator. He starts talking at about 2:15. It was a really great exhibit. I think even the catalog is on line.


This is about Cucuteni-Tripolyte, but they do talk about the burning of houses as part of a cremation ritual where the home site was burned to cleanse it for the next occupants. I don't know the source of the claim, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onY1QIv1Fro
 
Mary JAKES and David LUBELL found that Neolitic people 's femora was broader than the Mesolithic people's ones during Meso-Neolithic transition (but here again late southern Mesolithics is a not homogenous population) - laways the same question of sample and origin
 
These are locations of ancient DNA samples of R1a and R1b haplogroups found so far, from period 8000 - 2000 years ago:

R1a_vs_R1b.png


The two oldest samples - 7500 ybp (from Southern Deer Island, Lake Onega, Karelia) and 6000 ybp (found near the city of Velizh) were hunter-gatherers.

Samples of R1a from Poland and East Germany were found in the context of Copper-Bronze Age Corded Ware cultures (4600 ybp, 4400 ybp and 4000 ybp), as well as the Lusatian Culture (3100 ybp). Samples of R1b from Germany were found in the context of Copper-Bronze Age Bell Beaker cultures (4500 ybp and 4300 ybp):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture

Only the burial site belonging to Urnfield cultural horizon located near Dorste (3000 ybp) happened to contain both R1a (x2) and R1b (x1):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture

The most important of all settlements of the Lusatian Culture found so far, was Biskupin:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biskupin

 
Domen said:
These are locations of ancient DNA samples of R1a and R1b haplogroups found so far, from period 8000 - 2000 years ago:

R1a_vs_R1b.png
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And modern dominant haplogroups by country for comparison - R1b is pink here (while R1a is red like before):

Dominant_YDNA.png
 
Tomenable said:
The two oldest samples - 7500 ybp (from Southern Deer Island, Lake Onega, Karelia) and 6000 ybp (found near the city of Velizh) were hunter-gatherers.

Samples of R1a from Poland and East Germany were found in the context of Copper-Bronze Age Corded Ware cultures (4600 ybp, 4400 ybp and 4000 ybp), as well as the Lusatian Culture (3100 ybp). Samples of R1b from Germany were found in the context of Copper-Bronze Age Bell Beaker cultures (4500 ybp and 4300 ybp):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture

Only the burial site belonging to Urnfield cultural horizon located near Dorste (3000 ybp) happened to contain both R1a (x2) and R1b (x1):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture

The most important of all settlements of the Lusatian Culture found so far, was Biskupin:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biskupin

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you associate the 3100 ka R1a with Lusatian culture, which originated some 3300 ka
but where exactly did Lusatian originate? and had it spread that far west by 3100 ka?
wikipedia says very little about that
maybe Lusatian originated by R1b Tumulus people going east and mixing with R1a people there
 
Bronze Age burial near Halberstadt from 3100 ybp (which contained R1a haplogroup) was a burial of people of the Lusatian Culture.

You will usually find this sample described as "Urnfield", but Urnfield was not a single culture - it was a cultural horizon.

Lusatian Culture was one of Urnfield cultures. Just like the older Strzyżów culture (R1a from Poland) was one of Corded Ware cultures.

but where exactly did Lusatian originate? and had it spread that far west by 3100 ka?
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The main area of the Lusatian culture was Poland, but it extended also in West Ukraine, East Germany and Czechoslovakia.

This map shows the approximate extent of the Lusatian culture (burials near Halberstadt were in the western part of that culture):

map.jpg


And this map shows the location of Halberstadt:

Lusatian_Culture.png
 
maybe Lusatian originated by R1b Tumulus people going east and mixing with R1a people there
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There is not a single R1b sample in the Lusatian culture so far, and also no any R1b in Corded Ware cultures.

In general there is so far no any R1b in areas to the east of the Elbe River during the Copper, Bronze and Iron Ages.

Few years from now - around 2019 - there should be more samples of ancient Y-DNA available from Polish areas:

"This year [2014] begins a major research program, the goal of which is to examine ancient DNA from several dozen archaeological sites from the area of Poland. This project is supposed to test ancient DNA of inhabitants of Poland from pre-Roman, Roman, early Medieval and Medieval times and compare it to DNA of modern inhabitants. Research is going to last at least 5 years, its authors are - among others - prof. Hanna Koćka-Krenz and prof. Janusz Piontek."
 
maybe Lusatian originated by R1b Tumulus people going east and mixing with R1a people there
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The three main theories on origins of Lusatian culture include:

1) Development from the Trzciniec Culture (which also expanded westward):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trzciniec_culture

2) Local development from previously existing local "pre-Lusatian" cultures.
3) Migration from the south-east from territories along the Danube River.

An eastward migration is not taken into consideration, AFAIK.

Lusatian culture, which originated some 3300 ka
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The Lusatian culture originated some 3400-3350 years ago and lasted until 2500-2400 years ago.

Some enclaves of that culture existed longer than 2500-2400 years ago, even until 2300-2100 years ago.

It was initially a Bronze-working culture, but they later adopted Iron-working from the Hallstatt culture.

Some enclaves of the Lusatian Culture existed until the times of La Tène II / C - so ca. 300 BC - 100 BC.
 
Tomenable said:
The three main theories on origins of Lusatian culture include:

1) Development from the Trzciniec Culture (which also expanded westward):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trzciniec_culture

2) Local development from previously existing local "pre-Lusatian" cultures.
3) Migration from the south-east from territories along the Danube River.

An eastward migration is not taken into consideration, AFAIK.



The Lusatian culture originated some 3400-3350 years ago and lasted until 2500-2400 years ago.

Some enclaves of that culture existed longer than 2500-2400 years ago, even until 2300-2100 years ago.

It was initially a Bronze-working culture, but they later adopted Iron-working from the Hallstatt culture.

Some enclaves of the Lusatian Culture existed until the times of La Tène II / C - so ca. 300 BC - 100 BC.
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ok thank you

wikipedia states that Lusatian was influenced by both Treznic and Tumulus though

how did Lusatian end?
was there allready pressure from German tribes in Poland 500 BC?
climate changed 500 BC and the German tribes started moving south ; at the same time the Finns and Saami moved in taking over the territories the German tribes abandonned in the north
German tribes replaced La Tene in many places,
there were some Celts as far north as the Netherlands for a short while, just before being replaced by German tribes,
by the time of Julius Caesar the Suebi were allready in Southern Germany and invading eastern France, German tribes were taking over some territories of the Belgian tribes
 
Angela said:
In this particular case, individual homes seem to have been burned at different times.

I think I got the idea about the connection to death from things I've read and videos like this, but your guess is as good as any...
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"In this particular case, individual homes seem to have been burned at different times."

Yes I missed that point.

I was thinking more of stuff I've read about Cucuteni where it was said they burned down the whole settlement (dunno if that is correct or not).

edit: cool house
 
Greying Wanderer said:
"In this particular case, individual homes seem to have been burned at different times."

Yes I missed that point.

I was thinking more of stuff I've read about Cucuteni where it was said they burned down the whole settlement (dunno if that is correct or not).

edit: cool house
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You're right about Cucuteni. They did burn whole settlements down, or at least that's what most researchers now think, every 70 or 80 years, for unknown reasons, although there are a lot of theories, and it went on for about 1600 years.

I don't know if you've read the following article. I thought it was really interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burned_house_horizon

It seems as if they were burning the village in a huge, almost cosmic kiln. Perhaps it had some connection to how integral kilns were to their way of life, not only for making pottery, but for metal-working. Could it have been a way of getting rid of earthly impurities through fire, or transforming earth into something "other"? It seems to me it had to have some sort of ritual significance.
 
Sort of crazy thing. By Neolithic standards these were very expensive houses. They had plaster on outside and inside. A very expensive material.
I also can't believe the amount of wood they needed to chop to fill the house to burn it in high temperature. All with stone axes! Crazy!
 
Angela said:
You're right about Cucuteni. They did burn whole settlements down, or at least that's what most researchers now think, every 70 or 80 years, for unknown reasons, although there are a lot of theories, and it went on for about 1600 years.

I don't know if you've read the following article. I thought it was really interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burned_house_horizon

It seems as if they were burning the village in a huge, almost cosmic kiln. Perhaps it had some connection to how integral kilns were to their way of life, not only for making pottery, but for metal-working. Could it have been a way of getting rid of earthly impurities through fire, or transforming earth into something "other"? It seems to me it had to have some sort of ritual significance.
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That seems quite a plausible connection now you mention it.

#

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burning house horizon article, ty

75-80 year cycle speaks against soil exhaustion as a reason so i'll scratch that theory

the domicide idea - cremating the house - sounds plausible

it's interesting how they got the fire to burn hot enough to fire the clay - my first thought was if the whole town was set on fire and the houses were all close together maybe that created a fire storm?

the second thought was your kiln comment - not sure how it could be achieved but somehow walling the house in like it was in a kiln

(thinking aloud)

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although my heart belongs to half-yeti mammoth hunters my head is very impressed with Cucuteni
 
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