Mytrueancestry.com

[Iulius]

Thanks a lot for linking this, very informative and easy to navigate. The ancient populations seemed slightly surprising but it's certainly left me intrigued.

From my Ancestry DNA results:

Vandal + Frank (4.865)
Vandal + Longobard (5.047)
Vandal (7.678)
Longobard (7.754)
Frank (8.46)

1. Bell Beaker Southern France (2050 BC) (4.077)
2. [Hidden] - upgrade your account (5.973)
3. Vandal Chieftain (375 AD) (7.678)
4. [Hidden] - upgrade your account (7.754)
5. Nordic Lombard (670 AD) (8.195)
6. [Hidden] - upgrade your account (8.383)
7. Frankish / Hungary (590 AD) (8.46)
8. [Hidden] - upgrade your account (9.015)
9. Alemannic Bavaria (465 AD) (9.163)

1. Southwest_English (4.076)
2. Southeast_English (5.709)
3. Orcadian (6.045)
4. Welsh (6.289)

Update from my Living DNA results:

Celt + Longobard (6.315)
Celt + Frank (7.539)
Longobard (8.688)
Celt (9.14)
Frank (10.29)

1. Czech Velke Prilepy (0 AD) (7.505)
2. [Hidden] - upgrade your account (7.945)
3. Nordic-Celtic Gladiator York (250 AD) (8.019)
4. [Hidden] - upgrade your account (8.688)
5. Celtic Briton (0 AD) (8.8)
6. [Hidden] - upgrade your account (9.008)
7. Bronze Age Celt England (1000 BC) (9.108)
8. [Hidden] - upgrade your account (9.14)
9. Pict (670 AD) (9.238)

1. Southwest_English (5.000)
2. Southeast_English (5.341)
3. Irish (6.490)
4. West_Scottish (6.531)

It completely eliminates the Vandal connection and has more similarity to the Celtic samples, though the population distance is significantly larger.

Did you notice any differences in samples that popped up between the two maps of the separate versions of raw data? For me, AncestryDNA was more substantive.

 

[Iulius]

I think the map demonstrates this.

 

[Johane Derite]

Angela,could it be that after the defeat of the Illyrian Uprising of around 6-9 AD the Romans engaged in some genocide/ethnic cleansing? They sold a lot of them as slaves, they moved a lot of the tribes around the Balkans, brought some people from Dacia into Illyria. Could that have messed the genetics of the whole area? The Illyrians are not heard from again.

This is false, Illyrians are heard from. St Jerome testified in his commentary on Isaiah 7.19 he that he spoke in his native Illyrian tongue in the countryside among his people. Thats late 4th Century, early 5th Century AD.

Any source about romans bringing Dacians into Illyria?

 

[bigsnake49]

This is false, Illyrians are heard from. St Jerome testified in his commentary on Isaiah 7.19 he that he spoke in his native Illyrian tongue in the countryside among his people. Thats late 4th Century, early 5th Century AD.

Any source about romans bringing Dacians into Illyria?

I don't remember the chapter of Cassius Dio Roman History that it appears in.

 

[Angela]

Angela,could it be that after the defeat of the Illyrian Uprising of around 6-9 AD the Romans engaged in some genocide/ethnic cleansing? They sold a lot of them as slaves, they moved a lot of the tribes around the Balkans, brought some people from Dacia into Illyria. Could that have messed the genetics of the whole area? The Illyrians are not heard from again.

I honestly don't know. It's true that there were a lot of Illyrian slaves, with some of the men ending up as gladiators, along with Thracians, and increasingly so as Rome made peace with Gaul..


However, the Romans said they completely obliterated the Apuani, a "Celt-Ligurian" group from my area, yet Cavalli Sforza always thought many had fled to the Ligurian and Appennine Alps. Given the over 70% R1b in those areas, it seems like a pretty good bet to me.

"They are first mentioned in 187 BCE, when we are told that they were defeated and reduced to submission by the consul C. Flaminius; but the next year they appear again in arms, and defeated the consul Q. Marcius, with the loss of 4,000 men and three standards (plus standards of the Roman ally). The place of the battle was located by historian Lorenzo Marcuccetti, using references left by Titus Livius, in the territory of Seravezza. In fact, according to Titus Livius the places was named, after the battle, Saltus Marcius (saltus meaning a drop or a height difference and Marcius from the name of the consul) and today the hill above the supposed place of the battle, placed in a narrow gorge, still bear the name "Colle Marcio" (Marcio Hill). Others historic and logical evidences led to believe that this was the place of the battle (see Lorenzo Marcuccetti, Saltus Marcius. La sconfitta di Roma contro la Nazione Ligure-Apuana, Petrartedizioni, Lucca 2002). This disaster was avenged the next year, but after several successive campaigns the consuls for the year 181-180 BCE, P. Cornelius and M. Baebius, had recourse to the expedient of removing the whole nation from their abodes, and transporting them, to the number of 40,000, including women and children, into the heart of Samnium. Here they were settled in the vacant plains, which had formerly belonged to Taurasia (hence called Campi Taurasini), and appear to have become a flourishing community. The next year 7,000 more, who had been in the first instance suffered to remain, were removed by the consul Fulvius to join their countrymen. We meet with them long afterwards among the populi of Samnium, subsisting as a separate community, under the name of Ligures Baebiani et Corneliani, as late as the reign of Trajan^[1]"



So, they need not all have been moved. If the numbers were really reduced, however, the signature might be more "faint". I think we also need to keep in mind that the Romans were pretty sloppy with "ethnic" descriptions. Illyricum probably included different tribes who might have been slightly different from one another. If I recall correctly there was definitely a difference in "sophistication" between the coastal and inland dwellers.

My gut feeling is that by the Iron Age the people in the Balkans were relatively alike, having amalgamated to some extent. The plague and the Slavic migrations had a substantial impact, however, a migration which I think may have gone more heavily down the central area. The Alps protected the Northern Italians from that invasion, that and the presence of the Langobards, who had some impact on Italians, but not as much as the Slavs had on some areas of the Balkans.

Feel free to disregard any or all of the above. This is all speculation.

 

[Tutkun Arnaut]

This is false, Illyrians are heard from. St Jerome testified in his commentary on Isaiah 7.19 he that he spoke in his native Illyrian tongue in the countryside among his people. Thats late 4th Century, early 5th Century AD.

Any source about romans bringing Dacians into Illyria?

The source could be his mother!

 

[LABERIA]

Angela,could it be that after the defeat of the Illyrian Uprising of around 6-9 AD the Romans engaged in some genocide/ethnic cleansing? They sold a lot of them as slaves, they moved a lot of the tribes around the Balkans, brought some people from Dacia into Illyria. Could that have messed the genetics of the whole area? The Illyrians are not heard from again.

 

[Angela]

^^Stop acting like a jerk.

 

[markod]

Angela,could it be that after the defeat of the Illyrian Uprising of around 6-9 AD the Romans engaged in some genocide/ethnic cleansing? They sold a lot of them as slaves, they moved a lot of the tribes around the Balkans, brought some people from Dacia into Illyria. Could that have messed the genetics of the whole area? The Illyrians are not heard from again.

It looks like Croatians and Bosnians still sit on a more or less perfect cline between ancient West Balkanic samples and Ukrainians/Russians. I think it wouldn't be far fetched to say that BA West Balkanic populations could have contributed some ancestry to those groups.

It's the Serbs and the Albanians who can't be derived from that two-way mixture, as both have significantly inflated West Asian (CHG) ancestry.

 

[Johane Derite]

It looks like Croatians and Bosnians still sit on a more or less perfect cline between ancient West Balkanic samples and Ukrainians/Russians. I think it wouldn't be far fetched to say that BA West Balkanic populations could have contributed some ancestry to those groups.

It's the Serbs and the Albanians who can't be derived from that two-way mixture, as both have significantly inflated West Asian (CHG) ancestry.

What causes "significantly inflated West Asian (CHG) ancestry" of Abruzzo Italians?

 

[New Englander]

What is the 2200BC dot in Sicily? I see lots of us have this showing up, but I havent seen it blue yet.

 

[markod]

What causes "significantly inflated West Asian (CHG) ancestry" of Abruzzo Italians?

It's even more pronounced in more southern Italians. My guess would be that it's Mediterranean Bronze Age ancestry from the Aegean.

 

[Salento]

NatGeo Helix:

 

[Regio X]

Compare...

Me, Father and Mother

Your closest Archaeogenetic matches...
1. Illyrian / Dalmatia (1200 BC) (3.516)

Your closest genetic modern populations...
1. North_Italian (7.993)
2. Spanish_Cataluna (9.178)
3. Spanish_Extremadura (9.460)
4. Spanish_Murcia (9.659)

 

[Salento]

I forgot to mention South Slavs also get Avar.




This doesn't mean that you have such ancestry. Its just Serbs are mixed with natives who were probably similar to modern Albanians which of course they deny. These calcs some of them dont use Albanian samples or else you would probably get Albanian as close as Greek and Tuscany.

Serbs are propgandists who have been pushing Caucasus theory on Albanians for generations only to get disproven by genetics, linguistics etc. so now they make up some new theory that can suit their agenda.

I’m aware of the meaning of my results, and I’m also aware of the Balkan Feuds.

 

[Iulius]

What is the 2200BC dot in Sicily? I see lots of us have this showing up, but I havent seen it blue yet.

I was curious about the blue and red dots too. I e-mailed the creators of the calculator, asking about their significance.

 

[ajc347]

I was curious about the blue and red dots too. I e-mailed the creators of the calculator, asking about their significance.

The FAQ’s detail there significance as follows:

‘Blue dots link to a clearly defined set of ancient peoples. Red dots refer to ancient samples where identity is difficult to determine based on archaelogical evidence.
Faded dots mean distant connection, brighter dots mean very close DNA distance to you’.

It is difficult to work out whether dots that overlap are faded or not. I’ve also noticed that a blue Saxon 700AD reference appears in all of my premium maps but not in the corresponding archaeological maps.

I’ve also noticed that on some maps, the circle for a given sample (such as Celtic/Viking Iceland 1000AD, for example), is the same size on all of my maps, but is larger on all of my mum’s maps (with two differing sizes being used depending upon the raw data sample).


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[bigsnake49]

A very interesting paper on population movements as a matter of policy by the Byzantine Emperors to disperse troublesome elements (i.e. Armenians, Slavs, heretics) serve as bulwarks against aggressive "barbarians" or to repopulate emptied lands (Thrace):
https://www.jstor.org/stable/177624?read-now=1&seq=2#metadata_info_tab_contents
Armenians were displaced all over Asia Minor, Syria, Thrace and Macedonia, Slavs were displaced to Asia Minor and a whole bunch of heretics were displaced from Asia Minor to Thrace. These extensive population movements which the author says is a continuation of Roman policy might play havoc with genetics and screw up "ethnic" purity. So if you have Scythian Roman in your true ancestry your ancestors might be some of those displaced people.

 

[Angela]

What is the 2200BC dot in Sicily? I see lots of us have this showing up, but I havent seen it blue yet.

If I'm not mistaken that's a Sicilian buried in a Beaker setting but without any steppe.

 

[Gash]

We're going to have to agree to disagree.

I'm closer to one of the "Romans" in Szolad than I am to any modern Italian population. I think that means something.

Those people were "absorbed" in one generation in an area which we know maintained a Romano-Christian culture into the 7th century, spoke a Romance language, and where one can find many Roman villas and forts. We also know it was retaken by the Eastern Roman Empire for a good chunk of time. I'm not at all surprised some of the samples look like Greeks. Those forts would have been manned by Byzantium.

Now, I'm sure that most of Hungary was not like the area around Lake Balaton, but this area was indeed different.

One can also look at the Collegno graveyard. There are actual "Germanic" Langobards, some Gallic like women, which makes sense since France is so close, one "Tuscan" like person and a number of "Hellenic" like or Greek shifted people. Collego is in Italy. What else could those people be but late Antiquity Romans?

I know it goes against what some people have thought for so long, but it is what it is. The "locals" from Italy and from Szolad are very similar.

I'm not going into the minefield of Balkan genetics. I don't know why people from the western Balkans get lower "Illyrian" and "Thracian" than some Northern Italians. I just know that archaeology, linguistics, and now genetics confirm that these types of people also went to Northern Italy, particularly Northeastern Italy. Again, it is what it is.

It goes without saying that the people from Hungary today are very different from the ones of the 6th century. From what I can tell a lot of their ancestry is south German/eastern French like, probably the result of the great west to east migrations of later Medieval periods.

Ed. Whether these Romans are like the Romans of the Republic and the early Empire we will know when those ancient samples are released. I think it's suggestive, however, that from what the author has said, there were two groups, one northern Italian like, and one Southern Italian like. Doesn't that seem to be about what the Collegno and Szolad samples show?

If you want to believe that the Romans had that much of a genetic impact on the Balkans then be my guest. However there isn't any genetic data that supports this though I am of course open to any idea. I'm sure the Romans would of left some YDNA markers that could verify such genetic imprint. There is some but certianly not that large from everything I have seen.

As for the Ilyrians samples. They are mostly Bronze Age samples from Croatia. Samples from other areas of the Balkans weren't really like Northern Italians anyway. They were more East of Italians. Lets also not forget that they are just Bronze Age samples.

And yes, I am aware that the Ilyrians went to Italy.