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Neolithic Refuge and Continuity in Transylvania

R-Z2705 was not in Albania before 800-900 AD. It clearly came with E-V13. This is obvious from many rrenjet interviews and they should know because internally they have insight to results from kruja-komani samples even if they are obligated to not acknowledge it until they are made public.

E-V13 came in bulk, with some clans flourishing and some barely got by. You can't find a single Serbian tribe that is J-L283 or R-PF7566 because they were not the original Albaphone tribes of early MA that made rapid advances on pastoral mountain chains. There are plenty of former Albanian tribes in Montenegro and parts of Herzegovina, and they are majority E-V13 with R-Z2705 being secondary. These are the eternal facts.
 

Let’s scrutinize Z2705 to the same extent so you can contextualize where I am coming from:
Around 150/200AD (we will use yfull data but keep in mind that they underestimate their calculations by 20%), you have three branches that have been discovered so far:
BY38894
BY147912
Y476553

Bigger brother BY147912 in the 200/400AD period diversifies into 8 branches.

BY38894, goes berserk in the same time frame 200/500AD, with its inner subclades, splits into over 20 branches.

Y476554, seems to have stayed put in Mirdite/Mat.


This is only what has been profiled thus far. There could be more, there are hundreds of other unprofiled samples that could further add to this diversity. Massive population explosion in the 150/500AD period, and unique to Albanians only within this subclade - so this couldn’t have happened in major Roman centres where legions ruled and intermingled with all sort of populations they conquered. If anything, Viminacium and Timacum Minus are the perfect examples of what I hinted at my above post. Makes absolutely no sense to have such a conservative language and culture like Albanian derive from groups further north who were in constant contact with Central European groups. Admixture and influence, absolutely.
 
tmrca is 1600 ybp, the boom happens somewhere after Justinian Plague, i still think absolutely insignificant before that, quite suspicious. Likely very small numbers to make a difference on its own, and this is regarding this particular subclade not R1b-Z2103 on its own, it is already a different story from EBA, LBA, Iron Age, Antiquity and Middle Ages. They need different contexts to be applied.

Albanian linguistic facts, does not point being there nearby, rather more inland. We now know E-V13 comes from more inland, mountainous regions.
 
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R-Z2705 was not in Albania before 800-900 AD. It clearly came with E-V13. This is obvious from many rrenjet interviews and they should know because internally they have insight to results from kruja-komani samples even if they are obligated to not acknowledge it until they are made public.

E-V13 came in bulk, with some clans flourishing and some barely got by. You can't find a single Serbian tribe that is J-L283 or R-PF7566 because they were not the original Albaphone tribes of early MA that made rapid advances on pastoral mountain chains. There are plenty of former Albanian tribes in Montenegro and parts of Herzegovina, and they are majority E-V13 with R-Z2705 being secondary. These are the eternal facts.
I don’t think V13 came in bulk. Few subclades could have been present from the early stages, but vast majority probably came in waves individually. Most certainly after the collapse of urban centres hence why they are patchy and don’t have much structure. Most density that we can observe today came later with the medieval tribal structure.

Which subclade can mirror Z2705 in its expansion, 200/500 AD that exploded in over 30 branches? Zero.

To me it doesn’t matter where it was, a ne Peqin, Malisheve a Muçibabe. The context is Illyrian either way you look at it.
 
tmrca is 1600 ybp, the boom happens somewhere after Justinian Plague, i still think absolutely insignificant before that, quite suspicious. Likely very small numbers to make a difference on its own, and this is regarding this particular subclade not R1b-Z2103 on its own, it is already a different story from EBA, LBA, Iron Age, Antiquity and Middle Ages. They need different contexts to be applied.

Albanian linguistic facts, does not point being there nearby, rather more inland. We now know E-V13 comes from more inland, mountainous regions.
I feel like I am talking to a tree. The real initial expansion happened from 150AD to 500AD.
 
I don’t think V13 came in bulk. Few subclades could have been present from the early stages, but vast majority probably came in waves individually. Most certainly after the collapse of urban centres hence why they are patchy and don’t have much structure. Most density that we can observe today came later with the medieval tribal structure.

Which subclade can mirror Z2705 in its expansion, 200/500 AD that exploded in over 30 branches? Zero.

To me it doesn’t matter where it was, a ne Peqin, Malisheve a Muçibabe. The context is Illyrian either way you look at it.

That's just your subjective opinion dude. Something we don't agree with for very reasonable reasons.
 
If R-Z2705 started in Mirdita, then it has been found in Kruja-Komani samples. A huge number of samples have been sequenced. If it was found there, rrenjet would be creaming their pants, yet there is nothing. Gjergj in his latest interview reaffirmed his old position the backbone haplogroups come in around 1,000 AD.
If J2b-L283, R-PF7563, and R-Z2705 were found in EMA Albania, rrenjet would not say the backbone of haplogroups came from "Dardania"(whatever fictional geography they imply by this), because rrenjet like your project has taken the position that E-V13 is 26-30% of Albanian y-haplogroups, a gross understatement and data manipulation, but irrelevant to this discussion.
 
I haven’t taken any positions, that’s the samples that we have in the project. They reflect the number of people that have been tested. Simple as that.

I don’t pay attention to what Gjergj says, and I wouldn’t trust anything he touches. Beyond unfortunate that a character of his type is involved in archaeogenetics in Albania.
 
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Looks like the Time Tree update will happen only this week, it wasn't included in the last weeks update. I also hope to get more samples from the Eastern European and Austrian Avar paper in the near future. It seems to take a while though.
I guess the Ukrainian paper will have the E-L618 as its biggest takeaway, if looking at Theytree: https://www.theytree.com/portal/index/samples?keyword=North Pontic crossroads: Mobility in Ukraine from the Bronze Age to the early modern period

But the Avar era samples from Austria mgiht yield some highly interesting patterns, even if they are that late. Lots of Northern and central branches, especially big founders of CTS9320, but also a couple of others from Z5018.

Edit: Looks like some R1a updates from the Ukrainian results being added to Time Tree in this weeks update according to Göran, which likely means that the E-L618 update indeed comes from the paper and will appear with the next update as well.
Have the R1a samples been added? The Italian L618 has been given it's own subclade E-BY179384 but the Bilsk sample itself has not been added.
 
I don’t pay attention to what Gjergj says, and I wouldn’t trust anything he touches. Beyond unfortunate that a character of his type is involved in archaeogenetics in Albania.

Questionable character or not, when it comes to historical visions he is on your side. I hope him and rrenjet in general have no power to pull the brakes on the samples they encouraged to get tested, as results do not meet expectations.

Why are you not involved in archaeogenetics in Kosova? Why do we not have any ancient samples from there?
 
Questionable character or not, when it comes to historical visions he is on your side. I hope him and rrenjet in general have no power to pull the brakes on the samples they encouraged to get tested, as results do not meet expectations.

Why are you not involved in archaeogenetics in Kosova? Why do we not have any ancient samples from there?
Not really. His theory is multiple waves of Illyrians.

I don't think that's the case. Most V13 is probably Thracian influence. Of course some could have been present already among Dardanians but hard to say without getting samples from further north. If they end up what we saw in Shkup and Cinamak, then I will maintain the idea that Alb is part of the Illyrian sphere linguistically but with substantial Thracian influence (and related groups that got pushed southwest). That's where I remain currently but obviously if data contradicts me I have no issue on changing my views.

They probably do have a lot of power due to their connections there with the local archeologist. I have looked into it but apparently these lab unis have to be interested or you need to apply etc. Most archeologists there seem to be clueless too and get paranoid when you mention DNA testing. I am more frustrated with those from Albania that were involved in southern arch paper because they could have influenced these studies to include Kosove too, and they didn't.
 
OK much more reasonable. Shkup samples were not Illyrians, the haplo C sample was mixed in autosomal profile (illyrian-Paeonian-Thracian), the female was likely a northern Paeoni, the rest were low quality to make any reads. In any case based on archeology E-V13 did take over the territory later known as Dardania but they were pushed back by the time historical Dardani emerge.

They probably do have a lot of power due to their connections there with the local archeologist. I have looked into it but apparently these lab unis have to be interested or you need to apply etc. Most archeologists there seem to be clueless too and get paranoid when you mention DNA testing. I am more frustrated with those from Albania that were involved in southern arch paper because they could have influenced these studies to include Kosove too, and they didn't.

To me it looks like gjergj encouraged public figures to take the test, and from there implanted the idea of ancient samples. He is also a freemason so he gets to meet these people in the lodges.
It's best to meet the archeologists in person, it's hard to convince anyone through a call or email.

I have looked into it but apparently these lab unis have to be interested or you need to apply etc.

Maybe the Hungarian team, they've tested everything in Hungary, they're probably running out of samples/options, they might need a reason to keep their department alive.
 
I am interested in Kecicayiri sample, whether the sample is simply E-L618 or V13+. It is interesting because this is a bridge for Phrygians between Balkans and Anatolia during Late Bronze Age collapse.

We already noted before about V13 when they expanded and conquered Central-Eastern Balkans primarily they were interested on the path toward Anatolia where greater riches were.

Given that the individual from Keçiçayırı357 (CGG_2_022162) was unearthed from the Phrygian valley, the appearance of this ancestry358 may be associated with the emergence of the Phrygian state during the late 4th millenniumBP48 359 (Archaeology Supplementary 2.12.5; Linguistic Supplementary 3.3).


This is the comment for Kirrha where R1b-Z2103, J2b2-L283 and E-L618 were found. To me it looks they are suggesting that they might be newcomers from more inland Balkans, or just from more Northern parts of Greece.

In Greece, nine individuals from Kirrha, Voudeni, Eleon, and Apollo Maleatas returned non400 local strontium isotope signatures. These might have travelled from regions within Greece401 where strontium isotope baselines are slightly more radiogenic. Among these nine402 individuals, we only have genetic data for four individuals, as several closely-related403 individuals were removed to avoid skewing the IBD admixture analysis. Genetically, these404 four individuals are similar to others from the same area, except for one individual from405 Eleon, who carries a small proportion of Bell Beaker ancestry reflecting a connection with406 Central Eastern Europe. Interestingly, two individuals (from Kirrha and Apollo Maleatas,407 Genetics and Strontium Supplementary S10; Supplementary Table S6) with non-local408 signatures have second-degree relatives who fall within the local baseline, indicating different409 mobility patterns within the same family. However, the relatives falling within the local410 baseline could also have originated from a different region given the large overlap in411 strontium signatures across Greece (Genetics and Strontium Supplementary S10;412 Supplementary Table S8). Finally, the father of a non-local individual from Apollo Maleatas413 (CGG_2_023933) differs from other Late Bronze Age Greece individuals by having a higher414 Yamnaya proportion compare to Late Bronze Age individuals, similar to the Middle Bronze415 Age individuals (>~3,800 BP).
 
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What would you think is the procentage of Paleo-balkanic dna in modern day Albanians?
 
In addition, there is a comment acknowledging that there is more than one phylogenetic linguistic models.

The spread of steppe ancestries is closely tied to the diversification of the Indo-Europeanprotolanguage into its historically attested subgroups28 128 . In the Mediterranean, important Indo129 European languages from Classical Antiquity include Gaulish, Latin, Greek, and Armenian,130 the latter being indigenous to the South Caucasus and Eastern Anatolia. For these, multiplecompeting phylogenetic linguistic models have been proposed29 131 (Linguistic Supplementary132 2-4). The so-called Indo-Greek hypothesis groups Greek as well as the closely relatedPhrygian with Indo-Iranian30, while the competing Graeco-Armenian12,13 133 hypothesis posits134 that Greek forms a subclade with Armenian, possibly also including Albanian (“Balkan Indo135 European”). Similarly, the Italic Indo-European subgroup, which is ancestral to Latin, has136 been variously grouped with Celtic and Germanic, giving rise to the traditionally popularItalo-Germanic31 and contrastive Italo-Celtic10,32 137 hypotheses. While relative linguistic138 consensus exists on the Graeco-Armenian and Italo-Celtic hypotheses, these are notunchallenged33,34 139 . More fundamentally, the lack of a definitive linguistic consensus model for140 the Indo-European diversification constitutes a key obstacle to the interdisciplinary study of141 Indo-European language dispersal.
 
Stamov with a presentation


He thinks that Thracian and Greek came from Catacomb/Multi-Cordoned-Ware, with Greek probably splitting earlier and Thracian coming latter? He derives Armenian as eastern split from Catacomb going south to Caucasus and ending up there in between Anatolia and Caucasus.

Does he make wild speculations or he reiterate what speculations are going on Harvard i have no idea.

He thinks Iron Age Thracians were 20% Multi-Cordoned-Ware 20% Anatolian and the rest 60% of Neolithic survivors from Rhodope-Balkan Mountains which might suggest that E-V13 survived there.

What happened in Late Bronze Age, how did the Chalcolithic survivors from Balkan-Rhodope Mountains (Or he is just making wild speculations with E-L618 which in fact is E-V13 negative) replace Multi-Cordoned descendants? Did Catacomb/Multi-Cordoned people actually replace beforehand the Yamnaya R1b-Z2103?

Stamov seems to mix stuff up quite often.

My personal interpretation of this is that in Rhodope there was E-L618 which became part of this movement with Catacomb to a minimal degree, north to it probably in Haemus and Southern Carpathian there was E-V13+ mutation which became wildly more successful during LBA-EIA transition with the Eastern Urnfield/Earlier Hallstattian invasions. I might be wrong here of course. We shall see.
 
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The Rhodope mountains being depopulated and re-populated in the Middle to Late Bronze Age period from groups to the North, basically from the Danube, especially Fundeni-Govora/Verbicoara into Zimnicea-Plovdiv-Cerkovna.
If someone finds E-V13 in the Rhodopes after the MBA, it doesn't mean that was their main centre of gravity or the area they survived in, but probably just one of the first places in which some inhumation burials which could be tested appeared. Timing and branches is everything.

MCW/Noua-Sabatinovka-Coslogeni is very unlikely to be the Proto-Thracians, but not impossible if assuming that Noua-Coslogeni was kind of a steppe group which transmitted the language, but was completely soaked up by the locals which had a Cotofeni-Vucedol base in the Capratho-Danubian sphere. But again, very unlikely, because the penetration was not deep and lasting enough in my opinion and at least a couple of R-Z93 etc. lineages would have made it in the E-V13 population, if that was the case. But we see practically zero overlap in this respect. The Proto-Thracian E-V13 population, which was 1.000 years older, was not even touched by this in a serious way.
 
Some new insights on Thracian language, December 2024

Ecaterina PLEȘCA

Aspects of the Research of Paleo-Balkan Relicted Languagesand the Thracian Idiom

"one can speak of a spatial-temporal continuum. It is within this continuum that cultural-historical borrowings take place between bearers of similar or close value systems, and "the choice of a particular borrowing and its adaptation to the given value system can be both synchronic and diachronic" (Fol 1988, p. 56), meaning that the borrowing could come from the contemporary cultural layer or from the one inherited from the past. As an example, we will bring data proving opposite orientations of influences from one era to another. In the Late Neolithic Greek (after 3500 BC), metal exporters from Asia mainly followed the route through the Troad “towards the Aegean and the Danube Basin”, and “with them, other populations from Anatolia (especially from Cilicia), the Near and Middle East moved westwards, whose languages left appreciable traces in the nomenclature of Ancient Greece, names with suffixes in -nt, -nd, -nth, such as Pindos, Corinthos, and in -ss, such as Larissa, Tilissos, etc. Linguistic traces from these precursors of the Greeks also remained in some bird and plant names (such as narkissos)” (Piatkowski 1988, p. 23). In the last phase of this period, Cretan civilization is "subject to a cross-over of influences from the Balkan Peninsula, Asia Minor, across the Cyclades, Syria and Egypt" (Ibidem, p. 24) - this is one way in which Thracian names could appear in the Cretan-Mycenaean tablets. In the first Bronze Age, Oriental and Egyptian civilizations strongly influence the cultures of the Aegean and Eastern Europe, including the Pontic regions, "where bronze and its processing are essential to the way of life" (Ibidem). However, when copper mines appeared in the mountains of Transylvania and in Banat (second half of the 3rd millennium and the first centuries of the 2nd millennium), "this precious metal also took the southern routes" (Ibidem). The respective period was marked in the Balkans by the so-called “arrival of the Greeks” (ca. 2300-2100 BC) (Ibidem, p. 23). According to archaeological data, the appearance of these tribes “coincides with the infiltration into the Aegean basin and Asia Minor of speakers of Indo-European languages, who changed and formed over time, by adapting to the local linguistic substratum (Greek, Thracian languages, Hittite, Hurrian, Luwian, Phrygian, etc.)”, and after their arrival “vast territorial portions still speaking pre-Indo-European or proto-Indo-European dialects remained until late throughout this vast territory…” (Ibidem, p. 28). Clusters of tribes speaking Indo-European idioms also appeared in Anatolia. The recently arrived foreign ethnic groups "created new phases in Balkan and Anatolian civilization", and over time

"the so-called Greek dialects were formed, based on an Indo-European vocabulary brought by invaders" (Ibidem, p. 29) and the native vocabulary, identified following in-depth research into the ancient Greek language, called the Pre-Greek or Pelasgian layer. This period of fusion and adaptation, with ethnic and linguistic changes, was called the Mycenaean (1900-1600 BC). In the north, however, in the first half of the 2nd millennium BC, the cultures of the Carpatho-Danubian space attest to strong influences from the Balkan and Aegean areas, and the bearers of these cultures were the Thracians. For example, Troy VI and VII proved certain correspondences with Thrace, and in the "dark centuries" of Greek history (1200-900), in the Carpatho-Pontic space, craftsmen still reproduced, by tradition, current models from the brilliant Mycenaean culture (the Hinova treasure, etc.) (Ibidem, p. 49). According to Romanian historians, "the creative tribes of the Bronze Age cultures on the territory of Romania (at least towards its end) belong to the Indo-European group of the Thracians" (Bărbulescu, Deletant, Hitchins, Papacostea, Teodor 2012, p. 23). The Thracians appear following the Indo-Europeanization of the bronze cultures from the geographical space between the Northern Carpathians, the Tisa, Vardar and Morava rivers, the Aegean Sea and the Black Sea. In the early Iron Age, "the Thracians inhabited the Balkans and the Carpathian Basin" (IM 2010, p. 313). Also in the Iron Age, during the 7th-6th centuries BC, the division of the Thracians occurred: into the Northern Thracians or Geto-Dacians (the population of Thracian origin who lived in the Carpatho-Danubian and Pontic regions, up to the Balkan Mountains, known in ancient historical sources as Dacians and Getae) and the Thracians proper, the southern/south-Danubian Thracians. The individualization of the Geto-Dacians from the great mass of Thracians constituted "throughout their existence, an ethnic and linguistic unity, with a material and spiritual culture of their own" (Encyclopedia 1996, p. 178). “The South-Danubian Thracians ‘enter history’ with the Homeric epics”, while “the information about the North-Danubian Thracians is later (6th century BC)” (Bărbulescu
et al. 2012, p. 23). Respectively, the Northern Thracians and their Carpatho-Danubian or Geto-Dacian habitation area constitute the northern extremity of the Paleobalkan cultural and linguistic continuum, of which the Indo-European language family has preserved some relics.
The Thracian idiom, about which we know very little, “was certainly an Indo-European language from the Satam group”, states C. Tagliavini (1977, p. 112). The Indo-European character has been preserved in the entire structure of the Thracian idiom, as far as we know it, in vocabulary, phonetics, proper names, less in morphology, this representing the result of the evolution of the state inherited from Indo-European. The linguistic facts [10 inscriptions,
mostly fragmentary (+ 40 fragmentary texts from the island of Samothrace),
48 glosses, 39 Dacian names of plants (after Neroznak 1978, pp. 40-64)], considers
C. Poghirc, "oblige to delimit a Thracian linguistic territory (from northern Greece
and up to the northern slope of the Balkan Mountains) bordered to the west by the Illyrian territory
(from the northwestern Adriatic Sea) and, to the north, by the Daco-Moesian territory (comprising
the ancient Dacia, the two Moesias and, perhaps, Dardania)" (ILR, II 1969, p. 313).


page 75 and onwards.

Another one regarding Thracian religion and the Sun cult
The Thracian institution of the king-priest is attested since at least the middle of the 2nd millennium BC. This study presents Orpheus not just as a talented poet and singer, but also as a Thracian king-priest from before the Trojan War, who had different spiritual understanding (later known as Orphism) and attempted to reform the old religious belief system. The solar circles, some of them oriented towards the sunrise, found on numerous rock sanctuaries in Thrace, show that Sun-related practices were present in Thrace millennia before Orpheus and they were one of the key elements of his philosophy, just as the idea of bodily purification, which ultimately lead to enlightenment and divine inspiration. It is also reasonable to assume that his teaching involved a doctrine, probably only for initiates, related to the cycle of the soul after its final departure from the body.


 
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Another interesting thing (not to be taken too serious btw) is Dan Dana's the French linguist compilation of some Dacian names from Olbia and Tyras. One which comes to my attention is:

On Some Dacian Names from Tyras and Olbia​


This article contains a short list of Dacian personal names recorded in two Greek cities of the northern Black Sea region, Tyras and Pontic Olbia. The author provides a linguistic and epigraphic commentary on the names of a clearly Dacian origin (and distinct from Thracian names, as the recent findings indicate) and then proceeds to a historical analysis of these onomastic data. The study shows that almost all the bearers of Dacian names (idionyms or patronyms) in question were magistrates in the imperial period and belonged to a new elite that had recently taken control over Greek cities. For the author, there is more to these names than simply a sign of geographical proximity or ethnic amalgamation, but a distant echo of the Dacian king Burebista’s conquest of the Greek settlements on the western and northwestern shores of the Black Sea in the middle of the 1st century BC. This conquest, mentioned only in one literary source — the work of Dio Chrysostom — telling about the destruction of Olbia by the Getae a century and a half after the events described, should have resulted in the settling of groups of Dacians in the vicinity of coastal Greek cities. Onomastic data evidences miscegenation processes taking place in this region in the imperial times, after a massive Sarmatian invasion, the complexity of which becomes even more pronounced in view of their relevance to the debate over the nature of ethnocultural identity and the question how much the epigraphic material is indicative of the ethnic composition of the local population.



. ?Βατου (gén.) — Olbia — patronyme du 6e stratège, Σ[---]ος Βατου — dédicace
à Apollon Prostatès du collège des stratèges [IOSPE, I², 85] — peu après le milieu du IIe s



Batou sounds similar to Pannonian Illyrian names of Bato the Daesitiates and Breucian Bato as well as Dardanian Bato. Question is were these people actually mixed Gava-Belegis (Daco-Mysian like people) with Illyrians?! If E-V13 shows up there i do believe we might have an answer. Incineration/Cremation was quite a thing among Pannonians and Daco-Mysian people in Balkans, it reflects Urnfield/Hallstatt cultural heritage likely?!

Summary/Abstract: This article presents the results of the excavation of necropolis on the site of Kamenjača in Breza near Sarajevo led by the author from 1975 to 1980. The explored archaeological material from the Daesitiates’ necropolis has not been published as a whole. Its importance and significance was only presented partially in several shorter contributions, especially when study and introduction of the cultural history of the Daesitiates in pre−roman or La−Tene periods were the issue. Results show a general conclusion that, except one inhumed grave, the ritual of incineration burial is predominant. In these excavations there has been ascertained inseparable area of the necropolis used for the sepulchral ritual of cremation of deceased – so called ustrinum publicum. Systematic excavation marked two types of burial. First is chronologically older and it is assigned to the pre-Roman period, time of the Illyrian independence epoch, while the other, younger period is contemporary to the period of Roman conquest. The older type of burial is characterized by several forms of the grave construction: (1) Rectangular dry – wall flattened with soil and stones, is mentioned as a mortal bier. On the surface of these grave constructions are discovered remains of the ashes of the deceased brought from the funeral pile as well as the pieces of grave goods like weapons (spears) and fibulae; (2) Small piles of stones, with grave goods next to or on it.

 
Is it possible that Albanians might descend from tribes of Free Dacians that were pushed by the Huns into Moesia?
 
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