New map of haplogroup J2b (M102)

I was just pointing up to Adamo that his is statement about E-V13 distribution wasn't right.

No problem. I just actually thanked you for your post. I do think it's important to keep the record straight, and you were indeed correct, it's just that I'm OCD about all the qualifications that I think are important when looking at all of this. :)
 
What are the age estimates for J2b? I bet it is Neolithic but maybe it came later. The Kurds speak a Indo Iranian language ancestral languages to Indo Iranian migrated out of Yamna culture in Russia and Ukraine about 5,000 years ago. Y DNA samples of early Indo Iranian speakers show they were almost only R1a1a probably specifically R1a1a1b2 Z93. But I think there is a good chance since they came out of eastern Europe they may have spread some J2b and I2a1b. But from what I know there is no I2a1b in other Indo Iranians besides Kurds so maybe Cimmerians who migrated in that area of the Near east around 700bc from around the black sea were I2a1b is very popular maybe their the source. But why is it stuck in Kurds not other ethnic groups in that area like Assyrians? Probably because the I2a1b went to specifically only Kurdish people. I don't understand Maciamo why you would connect R1b1a2a L23 in Kurds to Balkan area when they have more R1b1a2a L23 than anywhere in Europe. And it is more popular in the Near east than Europe so I really doubt the J2b and I2a1b in Kurds is connected with R1b1a2a L23 if anything it was brought to Europe from the Near east.
 
Aren't we splitting hairs a little bit here? It's 11.0% in the Northeast, and 10.6% in the southeast. Perhaps a distinction without a difference? Also, as I've said elsewhere, I admire the work of Boattini et al, but this is one study, and the number of samples in any one area is not very large. I think a more balanced picture would include other sources. I think it would also perhaps include some of the other subclades of M-78. Just as an example of why I think some of these Boattini et. al results may be a little skewed, I don't for one minute believe that E-M81 really has its maximum in Bologna or in Emilia-Romagna in general. They just happened to scoop up an M-81 line there.

Of course they (Boattini et al 2013) dont;

E-M81 is 0% in North Italy [East and West] 240 samples (all together) of Area I and Area II

Bologna is just 29 samples and the 3.4% E-M81 = 1 sample;
E-M81 in Tuscany = 0.8% also just 1 sample (of 123 samples total) and 0% in Central Italy of Area V (77 samples)

There is no E-M81 hotspot in Bologna its just 1 sample from 29 samples;
I also do not credit the abnormal 10.3% R1b-L21 that high given that its just 29 samples;

Boattini et al 2013 - Supporting Information TableS2
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0065441
 
Aren't we splitting hairs a little bit here? It's 11.0% in the Northeast, and 10.6% in the southeast. Perhaps a distinction without a difference? Also, as I've said elsewhere, I admire the work of Boattini et al, but this is one study, and the number of samples in any one area is not very large. I think a more balanced picture would include other sources. I think it would also perhaps include some of the other subclades of M-78. Just as an example of why I think some of these Boattini et. al results may be a little skewed, I don't for one minute believe that E-M81 really has its maximum in Bologna or in Emilia-Romagna in general. They just happened to scoop up an M-81 line there.

What I think is fair to say, however, is that y dna E-V13 in Italy is either through direct settlement in the Neolithic or through Greek colonization in the first millenium B.C. How to distinguish between them, would require, I think, dating different subclades within the larger E-V13 clade. As for the E-V13 in Liguria and Piemonte, I would be very surprised if it was mostly Greek mediated. There were never the large scale Greek settlements here of the kind that were present over much of the Sicilian and coastal southern Italian areas. The southeast probably would contain E-V13 from both expansions, as might the northeast, although more of that is probably Neolithic than in the southeast.

I think it's also fair to say that it is surprising how much E and G and J2a there is in the northeast. Rather funny as well, for all those who try to link phenotype with y dna clades, and hold that these three clades are Middle Eastern and therefore supposedly confer "darker" phenotypes, as the Veneto is perhaps one of the fairest regions of Italy. :)



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strange how this Battaglia numbers from 2008 has very different numbers for north-east Italians compared to the boattini ones
 
The Greeks have the most hg T according to this (only north-east Italians were tested)... At only slightly over 4%.
 
Hg T is unbelievably rare, all across the board.
 

I dont think thats strange at all;

The 67 NE Italians samples from Battaglia et al 2009 are all from the prov. of Trento
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947100/
The 73 NE Italians samples from Boattini et al 2013 are all from Veneto [Vicenza/Treviso]
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0065441

Two diff. regions with two diff. languages and diff. pre-Roman and post-Roman histories;
Diff. Hg frequencies are to be expected;

In terms of autosomal DNA - the Veneto and the prov. of Trento is however very close;

DiGaetano et al 2012-
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0043759
55ub.png
 
After E-V13 it was only natural that I should follow with the map of J2b, the other major South Balkanic lineage with Neolithic ties.

The distribution is actually quite similar to E-V13, apart from a lower incidence in Slavic countries, but that may just be because E-V13 is found at a ratio of 4:1 against J2b almost everywhere. So wherever E-V13 is between 1% and 4% it would lie in the grey zone ( <1%) for J2b.

There is hardly any data for J2b in Iberia and France, so the actual distribution may be less homogeneous.

Haplogroup-J2b.gif


Compare with E-V13

Haplogroup-E-V13.gif


Interestingly J2b appears to be absent from most of northern Italy, although that is not the case for E-V13. The opposite is true for the Basques, who have J2b but hardly any E-V13.

Note that Kurdistan has high frequency of J2b, E-V13 as well as I2a-Din, R1a and R1b-L23 in (the whole South Balkanic package).

Twilight:How likely would Haplogroup E-V13 and J2B would be in separete tribes in the Cispine Celts?

Also noteworthy is the presence of both J2b and E-M123 in southern England (possible Roman heritage ?)

Makes sence, but the only way I can imagion the Roman DNA in the British gene pool is if the Roman Army kicked out their citizens who were unfit to fight and leave them to defend themselves when Rome was collapsing; still possible though. :/
 
I dont think thats strange at all;

The 67 NE Italians samples from Battaglia et al 2009 are all from the prov. of Trento
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947100/
The 73 NE Italians samples from Boattini et al 2013 are all from Veneto [Vicenza/Treviso]
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0065441

Two diff. regions with two diff. languages and diff. pre-Roman and post-Roman histories;
Diff. Hg frequencies are to be expected;

In terms of autosomal DNA - the Veneto and the prov. of Trento is however very close;

DiGaetano et al 2012-
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0043759
55ub.png

Ok, I accept this.

Then the difference of E-V13 of 10% reflects some type of late migration into North-east Italy of E-V13 because if it was earlier then it would have spread between trentino and veneto more evenly. The only E , which is late would be the very few greek and Albanian stratioti , but they where usually placed in Istria.

Also, linguistically south and east trentino speak venetian and were venetian lands far longer in history than trentini ( similar story with east-lombardy). The borders where Rovereto in the south of Trentino and Siror with Susaga ( ValSusaga) in east trentino area. Susaga was the venetian republic main silver mine area.

BTW, it means also that trentino and Veneto have 6.4% of the T marker I belong too.
 
Nice map :) Would u please make maps for J-M67, J-M92 and J-M530
 
After E-V13 it was only natural that I should follow with the map of J2b, the other major South Balkanic lineage with Neolithic ties.

The distribution is actually quite similar to E-V13, apart from a lower incidence in Slavic countries, but that may just be because E-V13 is found at a ratio of 4:1 against J2b almost everywhere. So wherever E-V13 is between 1% and 4% it would lie in the grey zone ( <1%) for J2b.

There is hardly any data for J2b in Iberia and France, so the actual distribution may be less homogeneous.

Haplogroup-J2b.gif


Compare with E-V13

Haplogroup-E-V13.gif


Interestingly J2b appears to be absent from most of northern Italy, although that is not the case for E-V13. The opposite is true for the Basques, who have J2b but hardly any E-V13.

Note that Kurdistan has high frequency of J2b, E-V13 as well as I2a-Din, R1a and R1b-L23 in (the whole South Balkanic package).

Also noteworthy is the presence of both J2b and E-M123 in southern England (possible Roman heritage ?)

Is there a paper about Kurdish Y-DNA haplogroups? I could only find Kurdish FTDNA project, but only with a dozen of participants. Do we know something more specific about their J2b? I mean subclades e.g. M241, M205, J2b*. And what about Dagestan J2b? I see a 3-4% patch near the north-west Caspian.
 
Is there a paper about Kurdish Y-DNA haplogroups? I could only find Kurdish FTDNA project, but only with a dozen of participants. Do we know something more specific about their J2b? I mean subclades e.g. M241, M205, J2b*. And what about Dagestan J2b? I see a 3-4% patch near the north-west Caspian.

We have here on Eupedia the frequency of Kurdish Haplogroups.

If you want some papers, there would be Nasidze et al., Nebel et al. and Grugni et al 2012. These are once I know about.
 
We have here on Eupedia the frequency of Kurdish Haplogroups.

If you want some papers, there would be Nasidze et al., Nebel et al. and Grugni et al 2012. These are once I know about.

At Nasidze I've found only M172. (I checked a 2005 paper.) Can you tell me something about the Dagestani J2b people or the J2b in the Caucasus?
 
You have to fix the J2b map Maciamo: north-central Italy has 9.6% J2b; one of the world's highest concentrations excluding Albania and parts of Greece such as Thessaly (8.8%)
 
Was J2b carried in eastern Sicily,south Calabria and Salento with the greek colonization?
 
Interesting.
 
I agree, it deserves an update by now.
 

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