Old Prussian (West Baltic) R1a clades

Tomenable said:
Pomesania (don't confuse with Pomerelia or Pomerania) was part of historical East Prussia, even if administrative divisions were different at some point. East Prussia = the original Prussia. The name "West Prussia" (or "Royal Prussia") started to be used much later, and it was originally West Slavic territory, not Old Prussian. There have never been much of Old Prussian DNA there.

The regions of Kashubia (Kaszuby) and Kociewie were parts of the province of West Prussia.

Here are Y-DNA samples of native Kashubs and Kociewiaks from Rebala and Wozniak:

Y-DNA haplogroup - Kashubs / Kociewiaks:

R1a ----- 170 (63.4%) ----- / ----- 89 (56.3%)
I1 ------- 35 (13.1%) ----- / ------ 13 (8.2%)
R1b ----- 24 (9.0%) ------- / ----- 28 (17.7%)
I2a ------ 8 (3.0%) ------- / ------- 9 (5.7%)
I2b ------ 3 (1.1%) ------- / ----- - 3 (1.9%)
E1b ------ 9 (3.4%) ------ / ------- 6 (3.8%)
J --------- 6 (2.2%) ------- / ------ 3 (1.9%)
G -------- 4 (1.5%) ------ / ------- 1 (0.6%)
N1c ------ 3 (1.1%) ------ / ------- 3 (1.9%)
Q1a ------ 2 (0.7%) ------ / ------- 0 (0.0%)
other ------ 4 (1.5%) ----- / ------- 3 (1.9%)

Total --- 268 (100%) --- / --- 158 (100%)

As you can see there are only 6 people with N1c in this sample of 426.

This means that Old Prussian ancestry wasn't common to the west of the Vistula.

These samples posted above, were collected from these two areas:

Ka_Ko.png
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That's okay no biggie, . My #1 goal with this question is to figure out weather my 2% Finland/NW Russian Dna came from the Old Prussians or could I just safely write the Ancestral Component off as a "hyphenated remains" of Proto-Uralic Tribes getting absorbed by the Proto-Slavs; my 9% East European, 9%+2%=11%Wendish/Pomeranian. I'm afraid I didn't confuse the tPomeranians and Pomesanians unless the sources did that for me. Here is the sources to my guesses.
According to the history of West Prussia, the Pomesanian and Pomeranians lived like cultural neighbors. Due to assimilation of the Teutonic Knights and christianization there is always a chance that the Pomesanian forgot about their ancestry and crossed the river west. This might be how you got the 6 Ydna N samples to the East of West Prussia ;).




My Paternal Grandmother's maiden name is Krumrey and she can trace her direct ancestry to Johnann Krumrei and Dora Pahl whom lived in modern day Zlatlow, West Prussia. Apparently the Pahl surname came from East Prussia. This hints that at least some East Prussian probably were already making their migration Westward as early as the 18th century.


But since the numbers are too little, I suppose I could write off that Uralic Component unless otherwise; if the possibility is true that Old Prussian were mostly R1a.

Thanks for the clarification btw :).
 
Twilight said:
My Paternal Grandmother's maiden name is Krumrey and she can trace her direct ancestry to Johnann Krumrei and Dora Pahl whom lived in modern day Zlatlow, West Prussia. Apparently the Pahl surname came from East Prussia. This hints that at least some East Prussian probably were already making their migration Westward as early as the 18th century.
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Zlotow (Flatow) is in the historical region known as Krajna:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krajna

It was the borderland between Greater Poland and Pomerelia.

Even the name of the region - Krajna - means literally "frontier":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krajina#Geographical_regions

Here you can find some maps of the region (not all are in Polish):

http://www.bohaterowiekrajny.krakow.pl/M.Kokowski-Szkic-historii-granic-Krajny-25.03.2013.pdf
 
It is also interesting why there were also four families with I2a haplogroup:

Haplogroup I2a:

kit E2677 Karl L. Nath born in year 1820 in Osterode (Ostróda)
kit B1542 Gottfried Golembiewski, born in 1790 in Riesenburg (Prabuty)
kit E7698 Michael Rimek born in 1723 in Ortelsburg (Szczytno)
kit N4664 Adalbert Rutkowski, born in 1730 in Grutta (Gruta)

It is rather in western part of East Prussia, not eastern. Slavic I2a is usually young - has TMRCA estimated as about 2300 years according to YFull. From which people it was? From Lechitic tribes (which appears for me to have the least of I2a-L621 from all Slavs)?
 
I noticed today there was some interest in my surname, Skubinna. My FTDNA Kit is #415060/R1a-YP569. Testing indicates the family goes back to the Ryazan Oblast of Russia in the 1500s. In 1600, they were living in Latvia. At some point after that year, they were Lithuanians living in Lithuania Minor which when it became part of Germany was known as East Prussia. According to the language experts at the Library of Congress, the name Skubina/Skubinna is Lithuanian and means "to be in a hurry" or "to be quick." My direct ancestor was Petras/Peter Skubinna. In 1720 he was paying land taxes at Loyen (near Dubeningken) in Kreis/County Goldap, East Prussia. His sons all had Lithuanian Christian names until the 1730s. if any one would like more information on my family's heritage or an article on the history of Lithuania Minor feel free to email me at mskubinna at yahoo. (Maternal DNA = H1a1; my mother surname is Gadow from Pomerania, R1b-M269.)
 
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Skubinna said:
I noticed today there was some interest in my surname, Skubinna. My FTDNA Kit is #415060/R1a-YP569. Testing indicates the family goes back to the Ryazan Oblast of Russia in the 1500s. In 1600, they were living in Latvia. At some point after that year, they were Lithuanians living in Lithuania Minor which when it became part of Germany was known as East Prussia. According to the language experts at the Library of Congress, the name Skubina/Skubinna is Lithuanian and means "to be in a hurry" or "to be quick." My direct ancestor was Petras/Peter Skubinna. In 1720 he was paying land taxes at Loyen (near Dubeningken) in Kreis/County Goldap, East Prussia. His sons all had Lithuanian Christian names until the 1730s. if any one would like more information on my family's heritage or an article on the history of Lithuania Minor feel free to email me at mskubinna at yahoo.
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So, East Slavic subclade it is.
But in general, a great family story. Showing how interconnected we actually are and how our identities can change.
"..family goes back to the Ryazan Oblast of Russia in the 1500s. In 1600, they were living in Latvia. At some point after that year, they were Lithuanians living in Lithuania Minor which when it became part of Germany was known as East Prussia."
Russians, Latvians, Lithuanians, and now Americans.


btw in modern Latvian too 'skubināt' = 'to hurry (someone)'.
 
Thanks for the reply and information on modern Latvian. East Slavic subclade it is. :) Regards, Martin S.
 
I had a look at the dictionary of Lithuanian Surnames (last names) - your name is recorded in several variations as SKUBA, SKUBAS, SKUBĖ, SKUBE, besides the name is also recorded in Latvian, Belorussian, Polish and Russian sources in similar sounding versions Belaruss. Скуба, Скубило, Polish Skubiej, Skubiejko, Skubiel, Skubik, Rus. Скуб, Скуба, Скубaк, Скубенко


The meaning in Lithuanian (as well as Latvian) is very clear - the stem "skub" means to hurry, to be quick, to accomplish something in a swift manner, a nickname for someone who was swift, fast runner. A similar anglo-saxon name would be Mr Swift.
Inasmuch as I know, however, the name does not mean anything in Polish, Russian, Belorussian languages - in the slavic languages there are other words for "swift", or "to hurry (someone)".
 
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Skubinna said:
I noticed today there was some interest in my surname, Skubinna. My FTDNA Kit is #415060/R1a-YP569. Testing indicates the family goes back to the Ryazan Oblast of Russia in the 1500s. In 1600, they were living in Latvia. At some point after that year, they were Lithuanians living in Lithuania Minor which when it became part of Germany was known as East Prussia. According to the language experts at the Library of Congress, the name Skubina/Skubinna is Lithuanian and means "to be in a hurry" or "to be quick." My direct ancestor was Petras/Peter Skubinna. In 1720 he was paying land taxes at Loyen (near Dubeningken) in Kreis/County Goldap, East Prussia. His sons all had Lithuanian Christian names until the 1730s. if any one would like more information on my family's heritage or an article on the history of Lithuania Minor feel free to email me at mskubinna at yahoo. (Maternal DNA = H1a1; my mother surname is Gadow from Pomerania, R1b-M269.)
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Wow, a very interesting family history.

It shows that people really were moving around. And apparently your ancestors on the Y-line also "changed their ethnicity" a few times (from Russian to Latvian to Lithuanian to German to "American" - or were they still Lithuanian-speakers when they came to the USA?).
 
Tomenable said:
Wow, a very interesting family history.

It shows that people really were moving around. And apparently your ancestors on the Y-line also "changed their ethnicity" a few times (from Russian to Latvian to Lithuanian to German to "American" - or were they still Lithuanian-speakers when they came to the USA?).
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Dagne, thank you for the interesting information from the Lithuanian dictionary. It was helpful and I appreciate your efforts on my behalf.

As for Tomenable's question, as far as I can tell from the church records going back to the 1730, a few of my Skubinna relatives were still using Lithuanian names as late as the 1840s. None after that date.

My paternal Great-Grandfather came to the U.S.A. in 1885. He only spoke German, but because he originally engaged in timbering in Michigan he had Swedish employees and learned that language. In 1892, he move to North Dakota and became a prosperous rancher. He hired fellow Germans and a number of Russian men and women to work for him raising wheat. So he also learned enough Russian to be able to work with them.
 
Amazing family history!
“Skuba” etymology is even more exciting – the word originates from proto Germano- Balto -Slavic verbs with a stem *skeub – meaning “to push”, “to move” which, respectively, originates from Indo-European *skeu – “to through something”, to move something”, “to push”, “to hurry”.

Amazing, it seems that your name has meant exactly the same in the Indo-European Protolanguage as it reads to me now!
 
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It is amazing the name has meant the same thing for so many generations and thousands of years! Thanks for the great information!!!
 
Dagne said:
I had a look at the dictionary of Lithuanian Surnames (last names) - your name is recorded in several variations as SKUBA, SKUBAS, SKUBĖ, SKUBE, besides the name is also recorded in Latvian, Belorussian, Polish and Russian sources in similar sounding versions Belaruss. Скуба, Скубило, Polish Skubiej, Skubiejko, Skubiel, Skubik, Rus. Скуб, Скуба, Скубaк, Скубенко


The meaning in Lithuanian (as well as Latvian) is very clear - the stem "skub" means to hurry, to be quick, to accomplish something in a swift manner, a nickname for someone who was swift, fast runner. A similar anglo-saxon name would be Mr Swift.
Inasmuch as I know, however, the name does not mean anything in Polish, Russian, Belorussian languages - in the slavic languages there are other words for "swift", or "to hurry (someone)".
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Among eastern Slavs this surname is derived from old given name Skuba.
 
It is interesting if among typically, "truly" Baltic (especially West Baltic) there are any clades of R1a without mutation Z92, especially if there are some (West) Baltic clades of R1a-CTS3402+.
I am interested if some subclades of R-CTS3402 (especially Y33+ CTS8816+ Y3301+) are Baltic, not Slavic in origin.
 
Z92+ is strange. It is kind of Baltic based on modern distribution (South Baltic one mutation + East Slavic other mutation). Maybe it was Galindians (East and West).

In modern East Balts it is not really popular, maybe 5-10% of total.
 
There hasn't been done thorough analysis of Z92+ at a deeper resolution. I haven't seen anyone separating Slavic and Baltic clades under Z92+.

Eastern Slavs certainly have this marker with frequency of Z92+ peaking among Belarusians around 25% of all R1a1 clades or 12-13% of all male population based on large size sample (n=1081) in published study. Eastern Balts also have it with Lithuanians have it more than Latvians. Lithuanians have Z92+ 33% of R1a1 clades (information is based on FTDNA's data) or 15% of all male population based on published study. Poles 9% of all R1a1 clades (FTDNA information). Around 5.5% of all Polish male population. Z92+ likely common among western Balts.
 
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