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who had the first alleles for white skin does not matter, the alleles were present long before white skin became common
what matters it to understand when, where, how and why white skin was favoured by natural selection
the same goes for LP and so many other traits
we don't have enough data yet to understand the selection
easier to understand should be LP, and even there we don't know the when, the where and the how
I am not sure if we can say R1b and R1a are true "whites" and the others not, but I would say that at minimum R1b, R1a, and I are the true Europeans. It is quite clear that G-P303 for instance originates in the Middle East, where as it is far more difficult to construct an argument that the former three did.
At what point do you get considered European? I don't know...will I ever be considered a Native American? Doubtful
Indeed, but our representatives from the White Nationalist groups have difficulty dealing with that.
@Tomenable,
Stop with the straw man arguments. The theory that selection for these traits had something to do with farming was one possibility. As new data comes out, you adjust your theories. Well, you do unless your mission is to support some bizarre view of history even to the point of totally distorting the available evidence.
@Aaron 1981,
Oh please, you identify as Scots or whatever do you? Not as an American? You think you are less "American" than an Ojibway? I beg leave to doubt.
So, let me see how this works...The first group to arrive in totally uninhabited territory gets to claim nationality and everyone else is excluded. I'm afraid that leaves both R1a and R1b out, as various forms of Ydna "I" arrived first. Isn't that how it's supposed to work under your scheme? What gives you the right to decide to close the door after your own yDna haplogroup arrives?
Or are you going to tell me that R was in "Europe" before "I"? How do you know? It looks to me as if R arrived barely ahead of the farmers. Unless, of course, you're going to say that Mal'tas remains (phenotypically very "dark", by the way) were also in "Europe"? What do you do, use your crayon to draw the "Europe" line further and further east until it includes all your ancestors? Who knows, we might discover some G2 in Greece that is older than the Karelian R. What will you do then?
I suddenly had an epiphany. This is why where "R" went after the time of Mal'ta is such an emotional issue for some of you people. If, instead of staying in that area throughout the LGM, which makes no sense to me, it went south and found a refuge around the Caspian before spreading out, then it didn't spend all its time in "Europe", never mind that there was no "Europe" or "Europeans" at that time.
This is a-scientific and a-historical. Do you spout this stuff over at anthrogenica, or would you get banned? You would have gotten banned instantly at the old dna-forums, I can tell you that...
To my endless astonishment, there are people who are obsessed with the East Asian percentage of Uralics. Here are photos of two former Finnish football players. If we should describe Jari Litmanen more East Asian than Sami Hyypiä, who really cares! I would readily accept a man like him if also mental things would match.
View attachment 7984 View attachment 7985
As for white skin, I am very pale myself, and I never thought that it is something to be particularly proud of. When I was young, I desperately wanted to get sun tan. It is only on these forums that I have realized that it really is an asset.
Kristiina said:IMO, the white skin is a status symbol
Pleiotropy occurs when one gene influences two or more seemingly unrelated phenotypic traits. Consequently, a mutation in a pleiotropic gene may have an effect on some or all traits simultaneously. (...) Pleiotropic gene action can limit the rate of multivariate evolution when natural selection, sexual selection or artificial selection on one trait favours one specific version of the gene (allele), while selection on other traits favors a different allele. Genetic correlations and hence correlated responses to selection most often exemplify pleiotropy. (...)
The glorification of white skin here and elsewhere is madness. As a pale-skinned person, I can say that on a white face, all red spots, capillaries and the like are clearly visible. On white legs, all veins and hair are catching the attention. A fat white body easily looks like an uncooked weisswurst. A white-skinned person easily becomes a cooked crab at the sun and must hide in the shade.
IMO, the white skin is a status symbol - often unpractical and not more beautiful than a darker skin.
It is well known that sport dancers, fitness freaks and bodybuilders use tanning creams or sunbed to look better.
This comment is off-topic, but I think that many people agree with me on this.
Angela said:That's why I've spent a fortune on bronzers, body make-up, and spray tans.
You won't convince "white supremacists" of that, however.
The people of Europe were sitting around scratching themselves as they huddled in their caves or yurts while civilization was starting its march in the Middle East.
Some archaeological cultures of Europe were colourful and their societies were advanced already having farming practises in Neolith. Such as Cucuteni_Tripillian culture (6000 - 3500BC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture
Steppe dwellers had relatively advanced societies. They invented wheel and the chariot able to spread their language from northern India to western Europe. During bronze age to have chariots were probably similar as in having advanced missile technology able to carry nuclear war-heads today.
Societies like Cucuteni were practicing a culture developed in the Near East. That's where the "Neolithic" was invented, right?Contact continued even after the initial migration and with it the transfer of not only goods, but technology.
)
The transition between hunter gatherer and agricultural lifestyles happened in different times at different part of the world. Neolithic started earlier in the middle east. Their agricultural practises may had an influence on southern European societies. In eastern Europe the transition to agricultural practices was separate from the Middle East. CT culture is a good example. Other earliest traces of agriculture were in Dnieper-Donets (5000 BC) and Narva cultures (Bronze). Corded-ware was the largest archaeological culture with agriculture. Early IE of Corded ware came from the East in north-eastern and central Europe bringing their skills and practises. In theory early IE could have contacts with people of Maykop culture that had agriculture and links to eastern Anatolia. Other than that agriculture in northern and eastern Europe developed later and seperately for the most part.
Ekhm, so "white supremacists" have much thicker wallets thanks to not having to buy bronzers and spray tans... ??? :48:
If you want to convince me to spend a fortune (!) on making my skin artificially darker, then you are right: you won't.
By the way: why do all emoticons on this forum have light skin? Do we call this emoji-racism?
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Edit:
OK, I found two with black skin:
:burned::after_boom:
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