Preview: Upcoming Ancient Greek Transect (Mesolithic to Medieval) from Biomuse.

[blevins13]

Since we know the precursors of the Greeks lived in the Balkans before and mixed with the locals, if you extrapolate the increase of steppe ancestry in the Greek speaking period, this was a full fledged invasion with a massive demographic impact on the Aegean. Keep in mind that you can't just count the steppe ancestry, but you need to put it into context since the steppe invaders were already mixed before. Going by that we deal with about 40 % newcomers, which is massive. About every second inhabitant in the early Greek period was a complete newcomer - and that's a rather conservative calculation, could be more.

“Since the precursors of Greek lives in the Balkans” how you know that, and where did they live. When this invasion happened?

 

[Riverman]

“Since the precursors of Greek lives in the Balkans” how you know that, and where did they live. When this invasion happened?

They came with horses and steppe-Balkan ancestry and markers, culture. The recent papers just showed the massive shift in ancestry. Where else should they come from, in Anatolia the steppe ancestry was lower and the Aegean had practically zero before. Therefore any increase must have come via the Balkans.

Going for papers, just as an example from 2021:

• •
  3,000 BCE Aegeans are homogeneous and derive ancestry mainly from Neolithic farmers
• •
  Neolithic Caucasus-like and BA Pontic-Caspian Steppe-like gene flow shaped the Aegean

Therefore you see the clear shift from an EEF-ANF dominated population to one with significant steppe ancestry.

EBA Aegeans were shaped by relatively small-scale migration from East of the Aegean, as evidenced by the Caucasus-related ancestry also detected in Anatolians. In contrast, Middle BA (MBA) individuals of northern Greece differ from EBA populations in showing ∼50% Pontic-Caspian Steppe-related ancestry, dated at ca. 2,600-2,000 BCE. Such gene flow events during the MBA contributed toward shaping present-day Greek genomes.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867421003706

If looking at this and other papers in detail, its clear that a mixed population of steppe-Balkan ancestry came down to Greece.

 

[blevins13]

They came with horses and steppe-Balkan ancestry and markers, culture. The recent papers just showed the massive shift in ancestry. Where else should they come from, in Anatolia the steppe ancestry was lower and the Aegean had practically zero before. Therefore any increase must have come via the Balkans.

Going for papers, just as an example from 2021:

Therefore you see the clear shift from an EEF-ANF dominated population to one with significant steppe ancestry.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867421003706

If looking at this and other papers in detail, its clear that a mixed population of steppe-Balkan ancestry came down to Greece.

Yes, but the following paper 2022 tells a different story. Tell a story of a minor steppe.

 

[Omino]

Yes, but the following paper 2022 tells a different story. Tell a story of a minor steppe.

We have 100+ LBA samples from the area and their steppe admixture is <35%(Logkas04 is the 35%).
the average is somewhere 10-16% depending on the area.
Dunno this massive steppe shift comes from

 

[bigsnake49]

Yes, but the following paper 2022 tells a different story. Tell a story of a minor steppe.

To be expected, since the Mycenaeans lived at the south end of mainland Greece with a cline of steppe admix as we go north.

 

[Riverman]

To be expected, since the Mycenaeans lived at the south end of mainland Greece with a cline of steppe admix as we go north.

Indeed, ethnic Greeks, Greek speaking tribes, were not just Mycenaean states. And it looks like, which is something to consider, as if there was, independently from the Greek migrations, constant flow on a low level from Anatolia. One bigger, before the formation of Minoan, but smaller one over time as well.

Fact is however, that there is no real continuity from the earlier Copper Age period in the Aegean (when the inhabitants were largely EEF-like) and the steppe-related immigration over the Balkans can be described as massive in any case. Even if someone would push it down a bit, if at the very minimum one quarter of the population got replaced, that is no trickling down at all.
And those coming down were surely not pure steppe (but mixed with Carpatho-Balkan ancestry), since we don't have such pure steppe people in larger numbers in the vicinity.

 

[blevins13]

We have 100+ LBA samples from the area and their steppe admixture is <35%(Logkas04 is the 35%).
the average is somewhere 10-16% depending on the area.
Dunno this massive steppe shift comes from

Liga’s

We have 100+ LBA samples from the area and their steppe admixture is <35%(Logkas04 is the 35%).
the average is somewhere 10-16% depending on the area.
Dunno this massive steppe shift comes from

Greek language

Indeed, ethnic Greeks, Greek speaking tribes, were not just Mycenaean states. And it looks like, which is something to consider, as if there was, independently from the Greek migrations, constant flow on a low level from Anatolia. One bigger, before the formation of Minoan, but smaller one over time as well.

Fact is however, that there is no real continuity from the earlier Copper Age period in the Aegean (when the inhabitants were largely EEF-like) and the steppe-related immigration over the Balkans can be described as massive in any case. Even if someone would push it down a bit, if at the very minimum one quarter of the population got replaced, that is no trickling down at all.
And those coming down were surely not pure steppe (but mixed with Carpatho-Balkan ancestry), since we don't have such pure steppe people in larger numbers in the vicinity.

The only ones that we known that spoke Greek are Mycenaean and they have minor steppe. As for the rest of the Balkans, nobody knows what language they spoke, there is no proof of language.

In addition, mithology has it that Pelops the father of Atreus (grandfather of Agamemnon and Menelaus) came from Anatolia, and genetic does not oppose this.

So what language Pelops spoke? This is the real question here.

 

[bigsnake49]

Liga’s

Greek language

The only ones that we known that spoke Greek are Mycenaean and they have minor steppe. As for the rest of the Balkans, nobody knows what language they spoke, there is no proof of language.

In addition, mithology has it that Pelops the father of Atreus (grandfather of Agamemnon and Menelaus) came from Anatolia, and genetic does not oppose this.

So what language Pelops spoke? This is the real question here.

You know Pelops along with Atreus and Agamemnon are all mythical figures, right?

AS far as what the rest of the Greeks spoke, your solution to them speaking Greek later on is that they got conquered by the Mycenaeans?

 

[blevins13]

You know Pelops along with Atreus and Agamemnon are all mythical figures, right?

AS far as what the rest of the Greeks spoke, your solution to them speaking Greek later on is that they got conquered by the Mycenaeans?

This not my solution it is an option , an it is possible as much as your option that Mycenaean got conquered by the Steppe Horde, or they learn the language as the lingua franca of the Balkans when trading with the steppe horde.

In addition mythology says the Pelops came from Anatolia. (Mythology bares the weight that bares).

 

[bigsnake49]

This not my solution it is an option , an it is possible as much as your option that Mycenaean got conquered by the Steppe Horde, or they learn the language as the lingua franca of the Balkans when trading with the steppe horde.

In addition mythology says the Pelops came from Anatolia. (Mythology bares the weight that bares).

Or there was no conquering just movement down the Balkans and the horde settled, got assimilated, intermarried and got Hellenized.

 

[blevins13]

Or there was no conquering just movement down the Balkans and the horde settled, got assimilated, intermarried and got Hellenized.

I agree with this some members of the horde that entered in Mycenaean civilization got Hellenized.

 

[bigsnake49]

I agree with this some members of the horde that entered in Mycenaean civilization got Hellenized.

There was definitely a stop in that civilization after between 1200-800BC approximately. Whether that was due to conquest by the horde, raids by the sea people, climactic change, earthquakes or what have you, there definitely was a change. Whether it was accompanied by genetic change, we need more samples to find out.

 

[Riverman]

There was definitely a stop in that civilization after between 1200-800BC approximately. Whether that was due to conquest by the horde, raids by the sea people, climactic change, earthquakes or what have you, there definitely was a change. Whether it was accompanied by genetic change, we need more samples to find out.

It was definitely because of the Urnfield migrations - some groups came by sea, others by land, and interestingly, those land (Eastern Carpathian basin)-sea (Italy) groups were at least culturally related (same burial rites, same weapons, same pots, even the same architecture). Therefore those invaders were probably at better terms with each other, than with the locals they pressed hard.

However, we also have evidence of local perserverance. But this local perseverance is not just the Mycenaean Greeks, but their Northern, tribal relatives rather. These moved, with the land Urnfiedlers in their back, further South, and when the Urnfielders entered the Mycenaean sphere, they weren't able to completely break the locals (Northern Greek tribals and local remains). This resulted in the locals adopting some of the Urnfielders customs, but being able to push them back as an ethnic group (like the clearly foreign cemeteries cease to exist over time).

The only question remaining is whether the Urnfielders left a genetic mark also, or just a cultural one.

Compare here:

To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

That's kind of off-topic, it doesn't really matter what his political views were, as long as his assessment of the archaeological and ethnolinguistical facts was close to the truth. However, even that is a bit off-topic if being taken too far.

www.eupedia.com

The size of the movement from the Tisza region was gigantic. But only a tiny fraction remained in Greece and was later either pushed back, assimilated or annihilated.

In any case, the migration which crossed the Danube must have been many tens of thousands of people exactly around that time (1.200 BC).

 

[blevins13]

There was definitely a stop in that civilization after between 1200-800BC approximately. Whether that was due to conquest by the horde, raids by the sea people, climactic change, earthquakes or what have you, there definitely was a change. Whether it was accompanied by genetic change, we need more samples to find out.

What happend after 1200 bc bears no importance on the Greek language. Greek language was attested well before 1200bc. So any impact from the steppe hord after 1200 bc has no impact on Greek Ethnogenesis.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

What happend after 1200 bc bears no importance on the Greek language. Greek language was attested well before 1200bc. So any impact from the steppe hord after 1200 bc has no impact on Greek Ethnogenesis.

"During the Dark Ages of Greece, the old major settlements were abandoned (with the notable exception of Athens), and the population dropped dramatically. Within these three hundred years, the people of Greece lived in small groups that moved constantly in accordance with their new pastoral lifestyle and livestock needs, while they left no written record behind leading to the conclusion that they were illiterate. Later in the Dark Ages (between 950 and 750 BC), Greeks relearned how to write once again, but this time instead of using the Linear B script used by the Mycenaeans, they adopted the alphabet used by the Phoenicians "innovating in a fundamental way by introducing vowels as letters. The Greek version of the alphabet eventually formed the base of the alphabet used for English today."[3]

Life was harsh for the Greeks of the Dark Ages. One major result of the period is the deconstruction of the old Mycenaean economic and social structures. The strict class hierarchies and hereditary rule were forgotten, and gradually replaced with new socio-political institutions that eventually allowed for the rise of democracy in 5th c. BC Athens."

Do you know that 1200 BC and prior Athens was 100% burials. Yet after 1100BC Athens was cremating in urns, why?

 

[blevins13]

"During the Dark Ages of Greece, the old major settlements were abandoned (with the notable exception of Athens), and the population dropped dramatically. Within these three hundred years, the people of Greece lived in small groups that moved constantly in accordance with their new pastoral lifestyle and livestock needs, while they left no written record behind leading to the conclusion that they were illiterate. Later in the Dark Ages (between 950 and 750 BC), Greeks relearned how to write once again, but this time instead of using the Linear B script used by the Mycenaeans, they adopted the alphabet used by the Phoenicians "innovating in a fundamental way by introducing vowels as letters. The Greek version of the alphabet eventually formed the base of the alphabet used for English today."[3]

Life was harsh for the Greeks of the Dark Ages. One major result of the period is the deconstruction of the old Mycenaean economic and social structures. The strict class hierarchies and hereditary rule were forgotten, and gradually replaced with new socio-political institutions that eventually allowed for the rise of democracy in 5th c. BC Athens."

Do you know that 1200 BC and prior Athens was 100% burials. Yet after 1100BC Athens was cremating in urns, why?

In relation with Greek Ethnogenesis, why we should care what happened, after 1200 bc. Greek language has been attested in Peloponnesos around 1400 bc.

Does the change of the burial rites in Athena or any other place tell us something different about Greek Ethnogenesis.

 

[bigsnake49]

In relation with Greek Ethnogenesis, why we should care what happened, after 1200 bc. Greek language has been attested in Peloponnesos around 1400 bc.

Does the change of the burial rites in Athena or any other place tell us something different about Greek Ethnogenesis.

Nope it does not but for us genetics freaks it deprives us from knowing exactly what happened to Athenian genetics.

 

[Riverman]

In relation with Greek Ethnogenesis, why we should care what happened, after 1200 bc. Greek language has been attested in Peloponnesos around 1400 bc.

Does the change of the burial rites in Athena or any other place tell us something different about Greek Ethnogenesis.

Yes, because the Mycenaeans were not the most pure or typical Greeks to begin with. There were always Greek tribes directly to their North, in the Mycenaean era and earlier. In fact, Mycenaean Greece was kind of a colony of those original Greeks, which moved South. Just like later Greeks moved to Anatolia and Southern Italia.
Insofar, since these Northern Greeks came down, if anything, when they Dorians were freshly arriving, and we would get their DNA, it might tell us more about the Greek origins - the Greeks as an ethnolinguistic and genetic entity, than the Mycenaean genomes can tell us.
It is about when and from where the Proto-Greeks came from. The Mycenaeans were not "the Greeks", they were just a subset of the larger ethnolinguistic group with different tribes.

 

[blevins13]

Yes, because the Mycenaeans were not the most pure or typical Greeks to begin with. There were always Greek tribes directly to their North, in the Mycenaean era and earlier. In fact, Mycenaean Greece was kind of a colony of those original Greeks, which moved South. Just like later Greeks moved to Anatolia and Southern Italia.
Insofar, since these Northern Greeks came down, if anything, when they Dorians were freshly arriving, and we would get their DNA, it might tell us more about the Greek origins - the Greeks as an ethnolinguistic and genetic entity, than the Mycenaean genomes can tell us.
It is about when and from where the Proto-Greeks came from. The Mycenaeans were not "the Greeks", they were just a subset of the larger ethnolinguistic group with different tribes.

Interesting, “the pure Greeks”. Do you know where exactly was their adobe in the north. How you know they spoke Greek.

While for the real Greeks “Mycenaean” we have written language. We know according to mythology that their leader Pelops came from Anatolia, and we know that Mycenaean have minor steppe. All these are know facts.

 

[Riverman]

The Dorians, Macedonians and Thessalians among others lived to the North of Mycenaeans, thats well attested and there were more ethnic Greek tribes.