R1b-U152/S28 : more Gaulish or Roman ?

[Vallicanus]

U152 carriers were in different parts of Europe as descendants of legionaries.

These men, after the Gothic migrations, were displaced from power.

Are you seriously saying that all R-U152 males outside Italy descend from Roman legionaries from Italy?

Remember most legionaries on the Rhine and Danube frontiers tended to be of local origin from the 2nd century AD.

 

[hapiness15]

Are you seriously saying that all R-U152 males outside Italy descend from Roman legionaries from Italy?

Remember most legionaries on the Rhine and Danube frontiers tended to be of local origin from the 2nd century AD.

Impossible because oldest R-U152 samples was found regions between bohemia , bavaria and alps , this is too older than romans, this clade born in europe central with proto-celtic and italic people , these people later desenvolved celtic and italic languages but was basically same people because both came from same father , so we can assume that a person who came from a subclade italic this person can say he is descendeant from celtic or italic people because have no difference , celtic and italic from alps region are only people with language and a different culture , phenotype for example from these proto celtic and proto italic was probably all almost the same but when these people later who developed italic language migrated to italy they had contact with another ancient tribes coming from south like illyrians for example so their phenotype envolved probably to a dark phenotype, dominant genes, celts who migrated to northwest europe and british isles can mantain their phenotype because they had more contact with recessive genes

 

[Vallicanus]

Impossible because oldest R-U152 samples was found regions between bohemia , bavaria and alps , this is too older than romans, this clade born in europe central with proto-celtic and italic people , these people later desenvolved celtic and italic languages but was basically same people because both came from same father , so we can assume that a person who came from a subclade italic this person can say he is descendeant from celtic or italic people because have no difference , celtic and italic from alps region are only people with language and a different culture , phenotype for example from these proto celtic and proto italic was probably all almost the same but when these people later who developed italic language migrated to italy they had contact with another ancient tribes coming from south like illyrians for example so their phenotype envolved probably to a dark phenotype, dominant genes, celts who migrated to northwest europe and british isles can mantain their phenotype because they had more contact with recessive genes

I agree with this. However your example of Illyrians having a darker phenotype than Italics cannot be right. They were surely of similar colouring.

 

[hapiness15]

I agree with this. However your example of Illyrians having a darker phenotype than Italics cannot be right. They were surely of similar colouring.

This is literally impossible , celtic and proto-itallic both had the same ancient father so they had same phenotype , they had a high steppe , celtic and italic is just a culture , language , when these people from alps migrated to northeast italy they got another phenotype because contact with illyrians and another ancient tribes with high farmer who had darker phenotype

 

[Vallicanus]

This is literally impossible , celtic and proto-itallic both had the same ancient father so they had same phenotype , they had a high steppe , celtic and italic is just a culture , language , when these people from alps migrated to northeast italy they got another phenotype because contact with illyrians and another ancient tribes with high farmer who had darker phenotype

Latins and Etruscans had less Steppe than R1 (Proto-Villanovan) from Martinsicuro (Adriatic Central Italy) who may have had Balkan connections.

 

[hapiness15]

Latins and Etruscans had less Steppe than R1 (Proto-Villanovan) from Martinsicuro (Adriatic Central Italy) who may have had Balkan connections.

Is basic people coming from north had a higher steppe and south high farmer

 

[Vallicanus]

Is basic people coming from north had a higher steppe and south high farmer

But Martinsicuro is not further north than Etruria (Etruscan country which as less Steppe than R1).

 

[HereToLearn]

I don't understand what is the relevance of phenotype in a discussion involving R1b-U152, am I missing something? Also, how are you supposed to know if the first man carrying U152 (or any other thousands year old mutation) had a light or dark phenotype?? I didn't know that all the the Celts north of the Alps had light phenotypes, in fact most probably didn't (like most Swiss for example are not blond and blue eyed)...

 

[hapiness15]

But Martinsicuro is not further north than Etruria (Etruscan country which as less Steppe than R1).

I mean celts and proto-italic from alps region in some moment had exactly same phenotype because both son of R-P312 father R-L21, R-U152 ..., all of them had high steppe when these proto italic began to have contact with another ancient tribes with higher farm the things began to change

 

[Robotnick]

I mean celts and proto-italic from alps region in some moment had exactly same phenotype because both son of R-P312 father R-L21, R-U152 ..., all of them had high steppe when these proto italic began to have contact with another ancient tribes with higher farm the things began to change

The the Proto-Italics moved into Italy and mixed heavily with local women who were of indigenous farmer (EEF) stock. Italy was well populated during the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age compared to other places especially to the North. Proto-Italic people probably practiced the rite of Ver Sacrum in which young males were sent off in small bands to settle elsewhere, often through conquest or assimilation into the localities they migrated to.

This is why Italics as we know them are relatively low-Steppe compared to say Celts.

 

[Jovialis]

The the Proto-Italics moved into Italy and mixed heavily with local women who were of indigenous farmer (EEF) stock. Italy was well populated during the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age compared to other places especially to the North. Proto-Italic people probably practiced the rite of Ver Sacrum in which young males were sent off in small bands to settle elsewhere, often through conquest or assimilation into the localities they migrated to.

This is why Italics as we know them are relatively low-Steppe compared to say Celts.

This is what the Broion MBA samples show indeed. They could be modelled about 19% German Beaker, the rest Copper Age local farmers. Or about 25% Steppe the rest Central Italian Copper age farmers, which had some small
-but-significant later WHG enrichment.

At any rate, Italians have always been predominantly farmer-related, with most of their ancestry ultimatly coming from Neolithic Anatolia.

 

[Pax Augusta]

This is why Italics as we know them are relatively low-Steppe compared to say Celts.

There is recent archaeogenetics research on the Celts/Galls of France, which finds precisely that those in the southernmost parts of France had a profile more similar to southern Europeans, while the others were more in line with the Celts of central Europe. I am going from memory and may be misremembering.

 

[hapiness15]

There is recent archaeogenetics research on the Celts/Galls of France, which finds precisely that those in the southernmost parts of France had a profile more similar to southern Europeans, while the others were more in line with the Celts of central Europe. I am going from memory and may be misremembering.

Yes , celts from south had more contact with ancient tribes with higher farmer , so is normal steppe be lower on them than celts from central and north france

 

[torzio]

R1 (Proto-Villanovan) from Martinsicuro (Adriatic Central Italy) is a liburnian women born in Nin, liburnian lands and she died in the Liburnian colonies of Martinsicuro and Tronto lands

 

[hapiness15]

R1 (Proto-Villanovan) from Martinsicuro (Adriatic Central Italy) is a liburnian women born in Nin, liburnian lands and she died in the Liburnian colonies of Martinsicuro and Tronto lands

she had contact with tribes with high farmer

 

[Vallicanus]

she had contact with tribes with high farmer

She had higher Steppe than most other central Italian IA samples.

 

[Pax Augusta]

She had higher Steppe than most other central Italian IA samples.

and almost no WHG.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

and almost no WHG.

We can rule out proto Villanovans having much to do with Urnfield then, especially genetically -

It's great how we can use ancient genetics to correct wrongly determined pre history, or it could be a case that the Urnfield elites did not mix with these locals, this woman definitely doesn't have much Urnfield elite ancestry. Looks like proto Villanovans would have been descendents of Terramare culture that fled south. After being completely destroyed by Urnfielders (1200BC) those that survived rebuilt and became the Villanovans or were in control of Urnfield elites who provided them with urns.

 

[Vallicanus]

We can rule out proto Villanovans having much to do with Urnfield then, especially genetically -

It's great how we can use ancient genetics to correct wrongly determined pre history, or it could be a case that the Urnfield elites did not mix with these locals, this woman definitely doesn't have much Urnfield elite ancestry. Looks like proto Villanovans would have been descendents of Terramare culture that fled south. After being completely destroyed by Urnfielders (1200BC) those that survived rebuilt and became the Villanovans or were in control of Urnfield elites who provided them with urns.

How do we know that the Terremare people, like the Martinsicuro Proto-Villanovan sample R1, had relatively high Steppe for Southern Europe and low WHG?

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

How do we know that the Terremare people, like the Martinsicuro Proto-Villanovan sample R1, had relatively high Steppe for Southern Europe and low WHG?

Bell Beakers had about 50% steppe and low WHG. In this region would have been
Bell Beaker > maybe Tumulus though I think it started elsewhere?

I think Terramare would have been part of Tumulus culture - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-35175-8