R1b-U152/S28 : more Gaulish or Roman ?

Who spead R-U152 ?

  • The (Proto-)Italo-Celts

    Votes: 34 28.6%
  • The Hallstatt/La Tène Celts

    Votes: 31 26.1%
  • Italic people, including the Romans

    Votes: 15 12.6%
  • Hallstatt/La Tène Celts AND Italic people

    Votes: 26 21.8%
  • Earlier Neolithic or Mesolithic people

    Votes: 4 3.4%
  • Other (please specify)

    Votes: 9 7.6%

  • Total voters
    119
Proto Italics and Proto Celts are two entirely different conversations. I will comment on the protoitalics since I am much more well read on this topic. Proto Italics are commonly attributed to the Terramare culture due to both the large demographic size of its colonization of Po Valley and the significant cultural homogenizing affect the later protovillanovans had on the whole of Italy. The protovillanovan culture in turn is a continuation of Terramare.

The Terramare people show extensive close contacts with the Carpathian basin and the northern adriatic - particularly with the Vatya and Nagyrev cultures which were highly militarized and rich in copper and tin. The Terramare entrance into northern Italy reflected this and mimicked the mass production of arms technology and improvements in sword making mirrored innovations that which emerged out of Hungary. Their funerary rites were also closely linked as well which was contrasted with notable changes from the preceding and demographically smaller Polada culture. We have bronze age samples from this region (the carpathian basin) and we also have genetic samples from specifically the proto Nagyrev and later MBA Vatya cultures whose material cultures tie closest to that of the Terramare. Their profiles are very modern like for northern Italy and for that reason it would personally be very surprising to me if the Terramare lacked a northern Italian like genome.

At some point I may make a larger post on this as I'm compiling a lot of archaeological research on the topic.

View attachment 15295

This is wrong, Terramare people were not related to Vatya. Vatya were mostly i2 and likely high on WHG autosomal, the Tollense Urnfield warriors had 30-40% WHG autosomal and again a lot of i2. However the end of Terramare could be attributed to these Urnfielders who introduced mass scale cremation though it looks like Terramare didn't use urns, the proto Villanovans may have which would make them Urnfield influenced Terramare survivors. Terramare culture was another victim of the Bronze Age collapse at the hands of Urnfield.

"Around 1200 BC a serious crisis began for the Terramare culture that within a few years led to the abandonment of all the settlements; the reasons for this crisis, roughly contemporaneous with the Late Bronze Age collapse in the eastern Mediterranean, are still not entirely clear."

"According to William Ridgeway[9] the dead were given a burial: further investigation, however, of the cemeteries shows that both burial and cremation were practiced, with cremated remains placed in ossuaries; practically no objects were found in the urns.[6] Cremation may have been a later introduction."

As for ethnic background here is a theory though I think they were just post Bell Beaker and proto Tumulus people -

"More recently, Italian archeologist Andrea Cardarelli has proposed re-evaluations of contemporaneous Greek accounts, such as that of Dionysius of Halicarnassus, and to link the Terramare culture to the Pelasgians whom the Greeks generally equated with the Tyrrhenians and specifically, therefore, the Etruscans.[10]"
 
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"More recently, Italian archeologist Andrea Cardarelli has proposed re-evaluations of contemporaneous Greek accounts, such as that of Dionysius of Halicarnassus, and to link the Terramare culture to the Pelasgians whom the Greeks generally equated with the Tyrrhenians and specifically, therefore, the Etruscans.[10]"
Hasn't ancient DNA testing finally put Dionysius of Halicarnassus's theory about the Etruscans to rest?
 
Hasn't ancient DNA testing finally put Dionysius of Halicarnassus's theory about the Etruscans to rest?

Yeah it looks like they were mostly R1b (post bell beaker), some G2a and a J2b l283 -

As for the language Etruscan may have been a developed ANF language like Basque is, pre Indo European.
 
This is completely wrong, Terramare people were not related to Vatya. Vatya were mostly i2 and likely high on WHG autosomal, the Tollense Urnfield warriors had 30-40% WHG autosomal and again a lot of i2. However the end of Terramare can be attributed to these Urnfielders who introduced mass scale cremation and brought urns. Terramare culture was another victim of the Bronze Age collapse at the hands of Urnfield.
Actually, you in fact are completely wrong.

The Vatya culture's close material culture relation to Terramare has been well established. Demographically it was quite plainly a colonization event from the carpathian basin and leading archaeologists support this scenario because the earlier Polada cuture was not numerically comparable whatsoever to the population size transported by the Terramare phenomenon. The population of Northern Italy skyrocketed because of this event and it brought sweeping material cultural changes and militarization that were not standard with Polada, including that of urnfield cremation, which was previously unknown. Every Terramare sword recovered up until the indigenously manufacturered Naue II emerged out of the Carpathian Basin's manufacturing styles and subsequent improvements on their preferred weaponry. The Polada culture previously used inhumation as its dominant form of funerary rite, but with the arrival of the Terramare we see an abrupt transition to urnfield style cremations and the widespread abandonment of burials. Burials performed within the Terramare culture only lasted 100 years maximum from the date of their arrival and they only occurred in areas which overlapped Polada.

"Recent discoveries and research on the Terra-
mare cemeteries suggest that the ‘urnfield’ model
was probably adopted by these communities at le-
ast from 1500/1450 BC (MBA2B-MBA3 in Italian
chronology), namely during the florescence phase,
and therefore at least one century after the ‘coloni-
sation’ (‘rise’) phase. By contrast, cemeteries that
included burials of the initial phases of the MBA
(i.e. Olmo di Nogara, Povegliano Veronese) com-
prise exclusively inhumations and are located to the
north of the Po, between the Mincio and Adige ri-
vers. Despite a significant presence of settlements,
MBA 1-2A burials have not been found among the
Emilian Terramare, south of the Po River.
It is li-
kely that the bodies of the deceased were treated in
such a way as to leave no trace in the archaeological
record; scattered cremation is a plausible hypothe-
sis, though weakly supported by a single, uncertain
case (a few cremated bones in a pit at Santa Rosa di
Poviglio) (Cardarelli 2014, 859-860)."


Furthermore the Vatya culture was low in WHG and overlapped with modern northern Italians and Balearic islanders. There was one outlier that overlapped southern french, but that's it. I've already posted their distances to modern populations but I'll post the PCA from the original study since you don't see to believe it. 5 out of the 6 samples plainly cluster over N. Italy which we all know is fairly low in WHG.


Vatya.jpg



"Around 1200 BC a serious crisis began for the Terramare culture that within a few years led to the abandonment of all the settlements; the reasons for this crisis, roughly contemporaneous with the Late Bronze Age collapse in the eastern Mediterranean, are still not entirely clear."

Yes, there was a widespread depopulation of the mediterranean and abandonment of settlements. This was part of a wider phenomenon. The Terramare culture, persisted as the protovillanovan culture into the final bronze age, regardless. They did not disappear, but instead seemed to have remained in the north while also expanding to the rest of Italy. This is why they are considered the proto-italics by many; specifically because of the wide reaching persistence of their material culture.

"More recently, Italian archeologist Andrea Cardarelli has proposed re-evaluations of contemporaneous Greek accounts, such as that of Dionysius of Halicarnassus, and to link the Terramare culture to the Pelasgians whom the Greeks generally equated with the Tyrrhenians and specifically, therefore, the Etruscans.[10]"

Yes, and Cardarelli is one of the leading archaeologists on this topic and of whom I sourced. Now let's look at precisely what Cardarelli has to say on Terramare's close material links to the Danube.

"It seems, therefore, that the communities settled in the two
plains of the Danube and the Po had already esta-
blished networks for exchanging raw materials
(primarily metal), artefacts and ideas during the
Early Bronze Age.
The use of these pre-existing corridors con-
tinues or even intensifies in subsequent phases,
although the exchange of goods and information
shifts towards new forms and contents, more rela-
ted to warriorhood, settlement and land manage-
ment. During the Middle Bronze Age, indicators
of contacts include Boiu-Sauerbrunn type swords
(Salzani 2005; Neumann 2009), shared types of
horse equipment (Sofaer et alii 2013), broomcorn
millet cultivation (Filipović et alii 2020) and abo-
ve all, similar settlement patterns, internal orga-
nisation of villages, and social structures (Peroni
1989 and 1997; Cardarelli 2009b)."
 
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Actually, you in fact are completely wrong.

The Vatya culture's close material culture relation to Terramare has been well established. Demographically it was quite plainly a colonization event from the carpathian basin and leading archaeologists support this scenario because the earlier Polada cuture was not numerically comparable whatsoever to the population size transported by the Terramare phenomenon. The population of Northern Italy skyrocketed because of this event and it brought sweeping material cultural changes and militarization that were not standard with Polada, including that of urnfield cremation, which was previously unknown. Every Terramare sword recovered up until the indigenously manufacturered Naue II emerged out of the Carpathian Basin's manufacturing styles and subsequent improvements on their preferred weaponry. The Polada culture previously used inhumation as its dominant form of funerary rite, but with the arrival of the Terramare we see an abrupt transition to urnfield style cremations and the widespread abandonment of burials. Burials performed within the Terramare culture only lasted 100 years maximum from the date of their arrival and they only occurred in areas which overlapped Polada.

"Recent discoveries and research on the Terra-
mare cemeteries suggest that the ‘urnfield’ model
was probably adopted by these communities at le-
ast from 1500/1450 BC (MBA2B-MBA3 in Italian
chronology), namely during the florescence phase,
and therefore at least one century after the ‘coloni-
sation’ (‘rise’) phase. By contrast, cemeteries that
included burials of the initial phases of the MBA
(i.e. Olmo di Nogara, Povegliano Veronese) com-
prise exclusively inhumations and are located to the
north of the Po, between the Mincio and Adige ri-
vers. Despite a significant presence of settlements,
MBA 1-2A burials have not been found among the
Emilian Terramare, south of the Po River.
It is li-
kely that the bodies of the deceased were treated in
such a way as to leave no trace in the archaeological
record; scattered cremation is a plausible hypothe-
sis, though weakly supported by a single, uncertain
case (a few cremated bones in a pit at Santa Rosa di
Poviglio) (Cardarelli 2014, 859-860)."


Furthermore the Vatya culture was low in WHG and overlapped with modern northern Italians and Balearic islanders. There was one outlier that overlapped southern french, but that's it. I've already posted their distances to modern populations but I'll post the PCA from the original study since you don't see to believe it. 5 out of the 6 samples plainly cluster over N. Italy which we all know is fairly low in WHG.


View attachment 15297




Yes, there was a widespread depopulation of the mediterranean and abandonment of settlements. This was part of a wider phenomenon. The Terramare culture, persisted as the protovillanovan culture into the final bronze age, regardless. They did not disappear, but instead seemed to have remained in the north while also expanding to the rest of Italy. This is why they are considered the prot-italics.



Yes, and Cardarelli is one of the leading archaeologists on this topic and of whom I sourced. Now let's look at precisely what Cardarelli has to say on Terramare's close material links to the Danube.

"It seems,
therefore, that the communities settled in the two
plains of the Danube and the Po had already esta-
blished networks for exchanging raw materials
(primarily metal), artefacts and ideas during the
Early Bronze Age.
The use of these pre-existing corridors con-
tinues or even intensifies in subsequent phases,
although the exchange of goods and information
shifts towards new forms and contents, more rela-
ted to warriorhood, settlement and land manage-
ment. During the Middle Bronze Age, indicators
of contacts include Boiu-Sauerbrunn type swords
(Salzani 2005; Neumann 2009), shared types of
horse equipment (Sofaer et alii 2013), broomcorn
millet cultivation (Filipović et alii 2020) and abo-
ve all, similar settlement patterns, internal orga-
nisation of villages, and social structures (Peroni
1989 and 1997; Cardarelli 2009b)."

Where are your results to show Vatya was low on WHG? All that has been published so far is ydna i2 -


It is clear they were high on WHG ydna and possibly the last remaining region in Europe with up to 40% WHG autosomal. Here is proof from the Urnfield Tollense warrior results -

It is fact that Terramare culture was abandoned around 1200BC, similar happened in Mycenae and elsewhere in Europe etc. This was when Urnfield was expanding, it could be that proto Urnfield was initially accepted in the region prior but later Urnfield leadership destroyed Terramare for unknown reasons, likely due to a dispute.
 
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Where are your results to show Vatya was low on WHG? All that has been published so far is ydna i2 -


It is clear they were high on WHG ydna and possibly the last remaining region in Europe with up to 40% WHG autosomal. Here is proof from the Urnfield Tollense warrior results -

It is clear that Terramare culture was destroyed and abandoned and this was towards 1300-1200BC, similar happened in Mycenae and elsewhere in Europe etc. This was when Urnfield was expanding, it could be that proto Urnfield was initially accepted in the region but later Urnfield leadership destroyed Terramare for unknown reasons, likely due to a dispute.
1707403895762.png


If you include the outlier they show 10% WHG, which is nowhere near 40%. I averaged all of them to produce a single sample and it predictably created a profile that looks halfway between northern Italy and the Belaeric Islands. The G25 results are slightly different than the official PCA which showed them directly overlapping Italy but not spanish populations.

As far as Tollense populations go, which were located in north eastern Germany - they have absolutely nothing to do with this.

1707408889118.png

It is clear that Terramare culture was destroyed and abandoned and this was towards 1300-1200BC, similar happened in Mycenae and elsewhere in Europe etc. This was when Urnfield was expanding, it could be that proto Urnfield was initially accepted in the region but later Urnfield leadership destroyed Terramare for unknown reasons, likely due to a dispute.

There are so many things wrong with this statement that I'm not even sure where to begin. The idea of treating Urnfield as some sort of unified community with a centralized body of leadership is ridiculous. It was a widespread funerary rite of which Terramare was already a part of and brought to Italy in the 17th century. Both the Myceneans and Terramare people continued to survive and dwell within their respective lands. The protovillanovan culture is a direct continuation of Terramare and was more geographically dominant in the final bronze age than the terramare were during the middle and late bronze age.
 
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View attachment 15298

If you include the outlier they show 10% WHG, which is nowhere near 40%. I averaged all of them to produce a single sample and it predictably created a profile that looks halfway between northern Italy and the Belaeric Islands. The G25 results are slightly different than the official PCA which showed them directly overlapping Italy but not spanish populations.

As far as Tollense populations go, which were located in north eastern Germany - they absolutely nothing to do with this.

View attachment 15300


There are so many things wrong with this statement that I'm not even sure where to begin. The idea of treating Urnfield as some sort of unified community with a centralized body of leadership is ridiculous. It was a widespread funerary rite of which Terramare was already a part of and brought to Italy in the 17th century. Both the Myceneans and Terramare people continued to survive and dwell within their respective lands. The protovillanovan culture is a direct continuation of Terramare and was more geographically dominant in the final bronze age than the terramare were during the middle and late bronze age.

Not sure where you got your Vatya calculations from or if you made them up, the Urnfield Tollense warriors had deep roots in Hungary and up to 40% WHG autosomal - watch the video above. Are you going to claim that these people came from Mars? They had nothing to do with Terramare genetics because Terramare had nothing to do with proto Urnfield genetics, we already know this.

Terramare was not using urns in 1700BC. Terramare was destroyed around 1200BC as was Mycenae and many other places (also sea peoples = Urnfielders), next you will say the Greek dark ages are fake haha. Of course Urnfield had centralised leadership, it was responsible for the largest wars and destruction upon big civilizations in the late bronze age. It doesn't mean that proto Urnfielders settled in these areas in great numbers, they just attacked them until they accepted their rule (religion/culture) and the use of urns (trade).

Have also noticed that all of your posts have thumbs up from "Vallicanus", didn't realise that you were allowed duplicate accounts here.
 
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Yes L2 is common in venetto , northeast italy , north italy in general is more Z56
And Z36, especially in Lombardia it seems. Z36 also appears to rival Z56 in Tuscany.
 
I'm claiming that samples from Tollense, Germany are far less representative of the middle bronze age Vatya Culture than direct samples from the middle bronze age Vatya culture. You are literally arguing against the results of the Vatya culture as shown in both the official study and G25. This is really not that hard to understand. You are trying to use some sort of far fetched proxy from northern europe and I am referencing actual Vatya samples that have been dug up and sequenced. I have already provided the original study which shows them clustering over top of N. Italy an you would do well to read it.


Both of these statements are false. We have 0 Terramare dna samples to compare to anything right now precisely because most of them were incinerating their dead under the guise of urnfield practices from the moment they entered Italy. Burials were rare and only found in some areas of contact with Polada (I believe 3 sites in particular were specified) and only for short a short period of 100 years.


The fact that you continue to deny that the Terramare people were part of the urnfield phenomenon is evidence enough to tell me that you have no idea what was going on in this era. Your ideas are fabricated and have nothing to back them up. You are trying to use North East German samples as proxies for Vatya era hungarians, argueing for absurd amounts of WHG and trying to dissasociate the Terramare with their closest material culture relatives while claiming that the sea peoples supposedly came from some other distant hypothetical type of urnfield population. At this point I'm more convinced that you're more interested in your own headcannon than reality.

Also, in response to your nasty comment on Vallicanus, you should note that I have but one account on this site. I won't speak for others, but perhaps you should consider the possibility that your arguments are unconvincing and entirely speculative in nature. That's been my perspective so far from this exchange. I think you would do better if you actually read the studies of the authors you speak of like Cadarelli and look at the actual Vatya samples which we have.

Your Vatya samples are likely from the western tip and not related to Proto Urnfield whereas the Tollense warriors come from the proto Urnfield core from further east Hungary and Poland as stated in the video. There was no 30-40% WHG in east Germany like you're claiming, the video clearly states these warriors had deep roots in Hungary/Poland and moved to Germany recently which would have lowered their WHG if anything from something higher than 30-40%. Like I said no urns from Terramare in 1700BC, the whole point of Urnfield wasn't just cremation it was the use of urns to store the ashes.

You are telling me to read authors but you have literally denied the abandonment of Terramare around 1200BC and destruction of Mycenae around the same period, now you are denying Tollense battle was related with Urnfield - you are trying to rewrite history with your "head cannon". You are clearly trolling here or hate accepting the truth for whatever reason. My arguements have nothing to do with Vallicanus giving you thumbs up on everything, even your posts on other topics that I didn't post at all in.
 
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Your Vatya samples are likely from the western tip and not related to Proto Urnfield whereas the Tollense warriors come from the proto Urnfield core from further east Hungary and Poland as stated in the video. There was no 30-40% WHG native in east Germany like you're claiming, the video clearly states these warriors had deep roots in Hungary/Poland and moved to Germany recently which would have lowered their WHG if anything from something higher than 30-40%. Like I said no urns from Terramare in 1700BC, the whole point of Urnfield wasn't just cremation it was the use of urns to store the ashes.

You have literally denied the abandonment of Terramare around 1200BC and destruction of Mycenae around the same period, now you are denying Tollense battle was related with Urnfield. You are clearly trolling here or hate accepting the truth for whatever reason. My arguements have nothing to do with Vallicanus giving you thumbs up on everything, even your posts on other topics that I didn't post at all in.
I don't really see a benefit in continuing this conversation. You are just going to stubbornly continue believing whatever you want in contrast to the evidence that has been detailed.

Vatya and Nagyrev are the oldest iterations of urnfield practices. They are geographically constrained to central hungary. If you want to believe the Terramare people had nothing to do with it when all of their practices and material evidence points otherwise then be my guest. Vallicanus is free to like or dislike whatever he wants and I have only had one account on this site ever. If you have a problem with that then you should take it up with him. Good luck waiting on your 40% WHG bronze age Vatya hungarians. I look forward to it and I'll leave it at that.
 
I don't really see a benefit in continuing this conversation. You are just going to stubbornly continue believing whatever you want in contrast to the evidence that has been detailed.

Vatya and Nagyrev are the oldest iterations of urnfield practices. They are geographically constrained to central hungary. If you want to believe the Terramare people had nothing to do with it when all of their practices and material evidence points otherwise then be my guest. Vallicanus is free to like or dislike whatever he wants and I have only had one account on this site ever. If you have a problem with that then you should take it up with him. Good luck waiting on your 40% WHG bronze age Vatya hungarians. I look forward to it and I'll leave it at that.

Yes I agree with this and not continuing this conversation until we get more ancient DNA. I have suggested that Terramare could have had relations with proto Urnfield around 1300/1400BC but that doesn't mean that the people from Hungary settled there in big numbers. It also doesn't mean that Terramare wasn't destroyed by Urnfielders in 1200-1150BC, maybe relations broke down due to the new leadership on both sides. Maybe Terramare stopped paying tribute or accepting trade from the central Urnfield network, maybe there was a revolt etc. We know how the Romans treated revolts for example. We don't know exactly what happened at Terramare because this is prehistory, it isn't written down. But we do know that Terramare was abandoned by 1150BC and then a similar culture Proto Villanovan emerged further south.
 
Not sure where you got your Vatya calculations from or if you made them up, the Urnfield Tollense warriors had deep roots in Hungary and up to 40% WHG autosomal - watch the video above. Are you going to claim that these people came from Mars? They had nothing to do with Terramare genetics because Terramare had nothing to do with proto Urnfield genetics, we already know this.

Terramare was not using urns in 1700BC. Terramare was destroyed around 1200BC as was Mycenae and many other places (also sea peoples = Urnfielders), next you will say the Greek dark ages are fake haha. Of course Urnfield had centralised leadership, it was responsible for the largest wars and destruction upon big civilizations in the late bronze age. It doesn't mean that proto Urnfielders settled in these areas in great numbers, they just attacked them until they accepted their rule (religion/culture) and the use of urns (trade).

Have also noticed that all of your posts have thumbs up from "Vallicanus", didn't realise that you were allowed duplicate accounts here.
No duplicate account here. I just happen to agree with Vitruvius on most things. Go figure.
 
If you think the Sea Peoples equalled Urnfielders then you need to do a lot of reading. The Sea Peoples were from Italy (including Sardinia) and the Aegean area.
 
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If you think the Sea Peoples equalled Urnfielders then you are need to do a lot of reading. The Sea Peoples were from Italy (including Sardinia) and the Aegean area.

1. Sea peoples emergence is similar sort of time of Urnfield expansion and warfare across Europe (1250BC-1150BC).

2. Your suggestions are 2 completely different regions that weren't unified in 1200BC, Sardinia and Aegen. Sea Peoples seemed somewhat unified wearing symbolism, even on their ships.

3. Nuragic symbolism/ship - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...lla_nuragica.jpg/220px-Navicella_nuragica.jpg

Sea peoples sunbird symbolism on ship -

Urnfield sunbird ship depictions/symbolism -


Do you not see the connection?
 
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We can rule out proto Villanovans having much to do with Urnfield then, especially genetically -

This is the classic comment of someone who has never read a single archaeology or anthropology book on these topics. But not even a few pages, let alone a whole book.

First of all, it is only one sample from Abruzzo, an area of the Picenes, and in the Picenes archaeologists for decades have thought that there may be contributions from the Balkans, as well as Protovillanovians in the strict sense. And Protovillanovan culture was so extensive in Italy that not even 10 samples can be considered representative, let alone just one.

And then, again for decades, archaeologists have not believed that the Protovillanovan culture represented a biologically related and homegenous ethnicity or population.
 
This is the classic comment of someone who has never read a single archaeology or anthropology book on these topics. But not even a few pages, let alone a whole book.

First of all, it is only one sample from Abruzzo, an area of the Picenes, and in the Picenes archaeologists for decades have thought that there may be contributions from the Balkans, as well as Protovillanovians in the strict sense. And Protovillanovan culture was so extensive in Italy that not even 10 samples can be considered representative, let alone just one.

And then, again for decades, archaeologists have not believed that the Protovillanovan culture represented a biologically related and homegenous ethnicity or population.

That's fine, if we get ancient DNA from Villanovans to prove a strong connection to MBA/LBA Hungary/Poland etc we can confirm genetic affinity with proto Urnfield. I doubt proto Urnfielders settled everywhere they went in big numbers, they enforced their culture/religion on the locals. Those that revolted were destroyed (Tollense, Mycenea, Terramare etc)
 
That's fine, if we get ancient DNA from Villanovans to prove a strong connection to MBA/LBA Hungary/Poland etc we can confirm genetic affinity with proto Urnfield. I doubt proto Urnfielders settled everywhere they went in big numbers, they enforced their culture/religion on the locals. Those that revolted were destroyed (Tollense, Mycenea, Terramare etc)
A facepalm post worthy of the best that the Apricity apology for a website can offer.:ROFLMAO:
 
A facepalm post worthy of the best that the Apricity apology for a website can offer.:ROFLMAO:

Says the guy who claimed sea peoples were randomly from BOTH Sardinia and Aegan with no reasoning. Ironically you belong in Apricity
 

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