Riots in France over police shooting

[bicicleur 2]

Merzouk was driving a yellow Mercedes when he was approached by the police. The 17-year-old was pulled over because so young and was driving a Mercedes with Polish licence plates in a bus lane. He allegedly drove through a red light to avoid being stopped. Given the circumstances, it was suspected that he was driving a stolen car. A Mercedes is not something a migrant family can afford to buy. He had previously been cited for driving without a licence and for refusing to comply with an order to stop. The French media sensationally reported it as a racially biased act of police brutality and may be responsible for triggering the riots.

A yellow mercedes refurbished in Poland is a car these youngsters like to show off with.
It is certainly not uncommon.
This young man was 17 years old and even didn't have a driving license.
He refused to stop because he wanted to show off how though he was.
He tested the limits and this time it went terribly wrong.

 

[Northener]

@Northerner:
I saw a video where 4 French white cops tried to take the strong side upon a big black (African) manapparently without serious reasons because it seems he didn't oppose to them. There, I'm almost sure it was racism at play. But we cannot make a rule based on that.

I agree with you, you can't make a rule based on that. Only a suspicion that racism plays a part in the 21 kills by -mind you- traffic police. And it can be coincidence that it were mostly blacks or arabs (can).

But the very basic thing is the rule of law, and the extra judicial execution that took place.

For me this is basic European civilization and frankly I don't care if people regard this as moral high ground,or leftist or n'importe quoi for me this is basic civilized society, police can't kill someone without a proces, come on!

That's for me also the difference between the rule of the knout and the rule of law, I hope we share that Moesan. Otherwise we could better give the keys from our countries to Putin, because what would be the difference?

 

[MOESAN]

I agree with you, you can't make a rule based on that. Only a suspicion that racism plays a part in the 21 kills by -mind you- traffic police. And it can be coincidence that it were mostly blacks or arabs (can).

But the very basic thing is the rule of law, and the extra judicial execution that took place.

For me this is basic European civilization and frankly I don't care if people regard this as moral high ground,or leftist or n'importe quoi for me this is basic civilized society, police can't kill someone without a proces, come on!

That's for me also the difference between the rule of the knout and the rule of law, I hope we share that Moesan. Otherwise we could better give the keys from our countries to Putin, because what would be the difference?

I have already given you my opinion about this. It's kind of a murder. As this young man had already made same offenses, one the same day just before the killing, it was better shooting in the car tyres, IMO.

 

[Northener]

I have already given you my opinion about this. It's kind of a murder. As this young man had already made same offenses, one the same day just before the killing, it was better shooting in the car tyres, IMO.

Yes I agree Moesan.

I'm a pretty law abiding citizen, but imagine this....

When we go on holiday with our petty bourgeois VW golf with Dutch numberplate we stay sometimes in a banlieu called Evry. When I make a mistake near the hotel (which is quit possible and the traffic police says stop, but as I don't understand my French father in law I probably don't understand the French traffic police too....so I don't follow their order.

Do you think they will blow my big Dutch cheesehead immediately into pieces only suitable for cheese fondue?

May be I'm naive but I think these chances are smaller than when I was black or Arab in Evry.....don't you think? So racism? Or?

By the way otherwise I have to think about visiting la douce France....

 

[Angela]

I have already given you my opinion about this. It's kind of a murder. As this young man had already made same offenses, one the same day just before the killing, it was better shooting in the car tyres, IMO.

I hesitated to intervene in this discussion, but I do have some real life experience with such matters. Human beings aren't perfect, including police officers, and they bring their own baggage, societal and psychological, with them. Some of them should never have been accepted into the police forces, and others have just burned out, lost their nerve and control of themselves.

However, while even one unnecessary death is terrible, making blanket generalizations based on it is inflammatory, illogical, and unproductive.

I don't know about the statistics in France, or even if they collect them based on race, but we're more transparent here. One statistic that is often bandied about in the U.S. is that Black men are 3 times more likely to be fatally shot as white men. What that statistic doesn't tell you is how many of those fatal shootings were found to be justified, i.e. the victim was attacking the police, refused to put down a firearm etc. The answer is: very few.

Over and beyond that, Black men are more than 3 times more likely to carry illegal firearms, commit felonies, commit crimes in general, etc.

It pays to actually dig into the data.

I know for a fact, because the body cam videos and phone videos submitted prove it, that many of the fatalities which caused our cities to burn were absolutely justified, and the reaction was not only illegal, it was based on incorrect information,or was just an excuse to riot and loot. I've seen videos of some of the young people creating this havoc and it's clear that in France as in other countries, too many of our young people have not been socialized and lack any sort of moral compass. Anarchy is not too extreme a word for it.

Cooler, more logical heads need to examine the details in order to come up with some sort of social policy.

Emotional reactions based on no facts are not helpful.

 

[Northener]

I hesitated to intervene in this discussion, but I do have some real life experience with such matters. Human beings aren't perfect, including police officers, and they bring their own baggage, societal and psychological, with them. Some of them should never have been accepted into the police forces, and others have just burned out, lost their nerve and control of themselves.

However, while even one unnecessary death is terrible, making blanket generalizations based on it is inflammatory, illogical, and unproductive.

I don't know about the statistics in France, or even if they collect them based on race, but we're more transparent here. One statistic that is often bandied about in the U.S. is that Black men are 3 times more likely to be fatally shot as white men. What that statistic doesn't tell you is how many of those fatal shootings were found to be justified, i.e. the victim was attacking the police, refused to put down a firearm etc. The answer is: very few.

Over and beyond that, Black men are more than 3 times more likely to carry illegal firearms, commit felonies, commit crimes in general, etc.

It pays to actually dig into the data.

I know for a fact, because the body cam videos and phone videos submitted prove it, that many of the fatalities which caused our cities to burn were absolutely justified, and the reaction was not only illegal, it was based on incorrect information,or was just an excuse to riot and loot. I've seen videos of some of the young people creating this havoc and it's clear that in France as in other countries, too many of our young people have not been socialized and lack any sort of moral compass. Anarchy is not too extreme a word for it.

Cooler, more logical heads need to examine the details in order to come up with some sort of social policy.

Emotional reactions based on no facts are not helpful.

Police violence: How can France tackle racial profiling without first addressing race?
Young men in France perceived to be Black or Arab are 20 times more likely to be stopped by police than the rest of the population, according to the country's human rights ombudsman. Racial profiling runs deep in the French police force, but unlike in the US and Canada, very little action is being taken to combat this form of discrimination.

[h=1]ps://www.france24.com/en/americas/20230709-france-s-police-dilemma-how-to-combat-racial-profiling-without-talking-about-race[/h]

 

[Duarte]

In February 2017, the Public Safety Law was passed in France authorizing the police to use their firearms in cases of refusal of obedience. Many in France denounced this law as a "license to kill"

LOI n° 2017-258 du 28 février 2017 relative à la sécurité publique


(…)

Chapitre V
« Règles d'usage des armes

« Art. L. 435-1.-Dans l'exercice de leurs fonctions et revêtus de leur uniforme ou des insignes extérieurs et apparents de leur qualité, les agents de la police nationale et les militaires de la gendarmerie nationale peuvent, outre les cas mentionnés à l'article L. 211-9, faire usage de leurs armes en cas d'absolue nécessité et de manière strictement proportionnée :
« 1° Lorsque des atteintes à la vie ou à l'intégrité physique sont portées contre eux ou contre autrui ou lorsque des personnes armées menacent leur vie ou leur intégrité physique ou celles d'autrui ;
« 2° Lorsque, après deux sommations faites à haute voix, ils ne peuvent défendre autrement les lieux qu'ils occupent ou les personnes qui leur sont confiées ;
« 3° Lorsque, immédiatement après deux sommations adressées à haute voix, ils ne peuvent contraindre à s'arrêter, autrement que par l'usage des armes, des personnes qui cherchent à échapper à leur garde ou à leurs investigations et qui sont susceptibles de perpétrer, dans leur fuite, des atteintes à leur vie ou à leur intégrité physique ou à celles d'autrui ;
« 4° Lorsqu'ils ne peuvent immobiliser, autrement que par l'usage des armes, des véhicules, embarcations ou autres moyens de transport, dont les conducteurs n'obtempèrent pas à l'ordre d'arrêt et dont les occupants sont susceptibles de perpétrer, dans leur fuite, des atteintes à leur vie ou à leur intégrité physique ou à celles d'autrui ;
« 5° Dans le but exclusif d'empêcher la réitération, dans un temps rapproché, d'un ou de plusieurs meurtres ou tentatives de meurtre venant d'être commis, lorsqu'ils ont des raisons réelles et objectives d'estimer que cette réitération est probable au regard des informations dont ils disposent au moment où ils font usage de leurs armes. »

———————

In the exercise of their functions and dressed in their uniform or external and apparent insignia of their quality, the agents of the national police and the soldiers of the national gendarmerie may, in addition to the cases mentioned in article L. 211-9 , make use of their weapons in case of absolute necessity and in a strictly proportionate manner:

4° When they cannot immobilize, other than by the use of weapons, vehicles, boats or other means of transport, whose drivers do not obey the stop order and whose occupants are likely to perpetrate, in their flight, attacks on their life or their physical integrity or those of others;

 

[Northener]

In February 2017, the Public Safety Law was passed in France authorizing the police to use their firearms in cases of refusal of obedience. Many in France denounced this law as a "license to kill"

That was exactly what I found too....in the Dutch newspaper NRC Handelsblad, google translate

Renowned criminologist Sebastian Roché, director of policing research at the National Center for Scientific Research CNRS, says over the phone that it is no coincidence that Nahel was killed by a police gunshot after he refused a police warrant. “My colleagues and I have investigated officers who shoot at motorists. It shows that the number of fatalities has increased by five, almost six times since 2017.”

How can this increase be explained?

“This is a direct result of a law passed at the end of February 2017 that relaxes the conditions that officers must meet to be allowed to shoot. The law came about in a period when France had been hit by terrorism on several occasions – the attack at the Bataclan theater in 2015, on the boulevard in Nice in 2016. Agents were also targeted, for example when two police officers were set on fire in 2016 in Viry-Chatillon. In that context, the socialist government made that law as a sign of goodwill, of reconciliation.

“Immediately there were concerns from lawyers and human rights experts, but they were brushed aside with the idea that European legislation also counted and would prevent the law from being abused. But the law has been explained by the national police in an instruction to officers as: you can use your weapon faster and you will not be prosecuted. And that has profoundly changed the behavior of agents: two months after the law was passed, the deadly shootings began. In 2017 there were five, then more than ever before. And last year even thirteen.”

This increase must also be known in political Paris. How is it possible that this does not lead to people wanting to reverse that law?

“The number of people shot by officers does not seem to be a major concern for the government. When we noticed this increase, my colleagues and I requested data for research from the ministry and numerous institutions, but time and time again we received no response. I think it's because they don't want to go back on a promise that was made before and because they're afraid the unions will rear up.

How Nahel's death caused an explosion of violence in France

“That is not without reason, because there is little room for introspection within the French police. You saw that last week: the unions remain squarely behind their colleague [who shot Nahel].

“The French police have a superority complex. They say: we are the best in Europe, because we have many and large riots, but we still manage to get them under control again. We are effective in fighting crime because we arrest a lot of people. Agents repeat that discourse among themselves in their closed bubble. It makes them feel like they don't have to question themselves.”

 

[Angela]

ps://www.france24.com/en/americas/20230709-france-s-police-dilemma-how-to-combat-racial-profiling-without-talking-about-race

I sincerely doubt it's 20X more likely, given the police are afraid to enter the suburban ghettos encircling the city. However, even accepting that estimate, how many times are they more likely to commit crimes than the rest of the population? You'd have to know that figure before labeling 130,000 men and women in the police force racist, don't you think? You know, if you commit more crimes, even misdemeanors, you're going to be stopped more often, yes?

Here's an example from the U.S.
" By raw numbers, there were 19,350 gun homicides in 2020, with African Americans accounting for 62% of the total and white people 21%."

If you remove minorities from the data, the U.S. is as safe as any of the European countries.

Meanwhile, African Americans are only 13% of the population.

Since the BLM fiasco and reduced police presence in the inner cities, reduced traffic stops, no more stop and frisk, the crime rate in the inner cities, including homicides by gun, knife etc. has skyrocketed. Who suffers? The black people who have to live in the inner cities.

I don't know why I bother, honestly.

Someone from a country where Miss Netherlands is a man is probably so woke that logical thinking was long ago jettisoned.

 

[Northener]

I sincerely doubt it's 20X more likely, given the police are afraid to enter the suburban ghettos encircling the city. However, even accepting that estimate, how many times are they more likely to commit crimes than the rest of the population? You'd have to know that figure before labeling 130,000 men and women in the police force racist, don't you think? You know, if you commit more crimes, even misdemeanors, you're going to be stopped more often, yes?

Here's an example from the U.S.
" By raw numbers, there were 19,350 gun homicides in 2020, with African Americans accounting for 62% of the total and white people 21%."

If you remove minorities from the data, the U.S. is as safe as any of the European countries.

Meanwhile, African Americans are only 13% of the population.

Since the BLM fiasco and reduced police presence in the inner cities, reduced traffic stops, no more stop and frisk, the crime rate in the inner cities, including homicides by gun, knife etc. has skyrocketed. Who suffers? The black people who have to live in the inner cities.

I don't know why I bother, honestly.

Someone from a country where Miss Netherlands is a man is probably so woke that logical thinking was long ago jettisoned.

I agree that the figures are not clear, but it's hide and seek when the hard data are not generated....

Yesterday I saw a documentary about the banlieus, those people - local entrepreneurs for example - miss the community police officer there, as it were. They only see the police when they carry out full force operations. Community police officers have already been cut back in 2003. They work very well in other countries!

To be clear I don't think that every policeman is a racist, but I think it's imo certainly a factor.

Interview with Sebastian Roché, research director in the field of policing at the National Center for Scientific Research CNR:


The police unions in France are decidedly right-wing. About 60 percent of French agents vote for radical right-wing parties. Does that influence the violence they use and against which civilians?


“It is not illogical that many police officers vote for the extreme right, because the political discourse of order and obedience towards authorities suits them. The far-right idea that foreigners are always criminals is also widely shared within the police. This sensitivity to extreme right ideas is reflected in the way people of color are treated: how they are spoken to, how they are knocked to the ground, how roughly they are searched. There are also countless examples and as many as fifteen studies of police conduct, each of which show that officers use ethnic profiling during body searches and checks. But that does not mean that these agents would also kill faster.”


Young people who experience violence and discrimination by police officers lose confidence in the electoral system. To what extent does this affect the relationship between the French and their police?


“You see a dichotomy that is comparable to the United States. The relationship between the white majority and the police is completely different from that between the minority group and the police – where in the US that minority group is black people, and in France North Africans. You see this much less in countries like Germany – research shows that Turkish-Germans trust the police just as much as their white compatriots."

 

[bicicleur 2]

I agree with you, you can't make a rule based on that. Only a suspicion that racism plays a part in the 21 kills by -mind you- traffic police. And it can be coincidence that it were mostly blacks or arabs (can).

But the very basic thing is the rule of law, and the extra judicial execution that took place.

For me this is basic European civilization and frankly I don't care if people regard this as moral high ground,or leftist or n'importe quoi for me this is basic civilized society, police can't kill someone without a proces, come on!

That's for me also the difference between the rule of the knout and the rule of law, I hope we share that Moesan. Otherwise we could better give the keys from our countries to Putin, because what would be the difference?

an execution is a well-prepared almost ritual action to kill a well-designated person
this is not the matter here

 

[Northener]

an execution is a well-prepared almost ritual action to kill a well-designated person
this is not the matter here

The adds extra jurdical are not for nothing, an extrajudicial killing (also known as an extrajudicial execution or an extralegal killing) is the deliberate killing of a person without the lawful authority granted by a judicial proceeding.

And that is exactly the matter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrajudicial_killing

 

[bicicleur 2]

The adds extra jurdical are not for nothing, an extrajudicial killing (also known as an extrajudicial execution or an extralegal killing) is the deliberate killing of a person without the lawful authority granted by a judicial proceeding.

And that is exactly the matter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrajudicial_killing

it was not a deliberate killing
it was a tragic accident which wouldn't have happened if the victim wouldn't have restarted the car in the first place
you are trying to highjack and frame the incident for other purposes, as did much of the media and the rioteers

 

[MOESAN]

Yes I agree Moesan.

I'm a pretty law abiding citizen, but imagine this....

When we go on holiday with our petty bourgeois VW golf with Dutch numberplate we stay sometimes in a banlieu called Evry. When I make a mistake near the hotel (which is quit possible and the traffic police says stop, but as I don't understand my French father in law I probably don't understand the French traffic police too....so I don't follow their order.

Do you think they will blow my big Dutch cheesehead immediately into pieces only suitable for cheese fondue?

May be I'm naive but I think these chances are smaller than when I was black or Arab in Evry.....don't you think? So racism? Or?

By the way otherwise I have to think about visiting la douce France....

It's also very plausible that our policemen has as a whole far less repetitive refusals to comply with cars with Dutch numberplate than with French or Polish ones (false numberplates?). Personally I'm "white" and in my country and I already had bad contacts with our policemen , too found of power, (but they never shooted me, it's true!). It's true that French police is not known for its friendliness.
But we are speaking of personal isolated cases, not states. The French police is on the way of hardening, it isn't new. It's not enough to say it's become racist in majority. Even isolated states without context can abuse us, I agree with Agela here. THat's said, hinter raw facts are maybe social/political causes on the long term...

 

[Northener]

it was not a deliberate killing
it was a tragic accident which wouldn't have happened if the victim wouldn't have restarted the car in the first place
you are trying to highjack and frame the incident for other purposes, as did much of the media and the rioteers

That is insinuating bicicleur.

When you look at the video you see imo: no accident, no self defend.

A needless action, the police could have shot at the tyres.

Is see that the UK and France video fragment is shorter than the one I saw from the Algemeen Dagblad. In the AD video we see the shooting....(not there on Sky or France 24).

https://www.ad.nl/video/productie/agent-schiet-17-jarige-jongen-dood-in-frankrijk-385034

 

[bicicleur 2]

That is insinuating bicicleur.

When you look at the video you see imo: no accident, no self defend.

A needless action, the police could have shot at the tyres.

Is see that the UK and France video fragment is shorter than the one I saw from the Algemeen Dagblad. In the AD video we see the shooting....(not there on Sky or France 24).

https://www.ad.nl/video/productie/agent-schiet-17-jarige-jongen-dood-in-frankrijk-385034

the video is short, but it's probably all there is

the police should have acted differently, and he made a serious and tragic mistake, but it is clear that he shooted only after the boy started the car again
so the term 'execution' is out of place
and so is the conclusion that the French police or even this specific policeman would be racist

 

[Northener]

the video is short, but it's probably all there is

the police should have acted differently, and he made a serious and tragic mistake, but it is clear that he shooted only after the boy started the car again
so the term 'execution' is out of place
and so is the conclusion that the French police or even this specific policeman would be racist

but it is clear that he shooted only after the boy started the car again

Since when is this is a license for a policeman to shoot someone in the chest?

 

[bicicleur 2]

Since when is this is a license for a policeman to shoot someone in the chest?

it never is, like I said
and I presume you also agree with all the rest I said

 

[Northener]

it never is, like I said
and I presume you also agree with all the rest I said

Wrong presumption: the fact that this is not a license, and the policeman obviously used this as such (not following an order, driving away) a license to kill makes it to an extrajudicial killing c.q. extrajudicial execution.

Because this is the deliberate killing of a person without the lawful authority granted by a judicial proceeding.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Wrong presumption: the fact that this is not a license, and the policeman obviously used this as such (not following an order, driving away) a license to kill makes it to an extrajudicial killing c.q. extrajudicial execution.

Because this is the deliberate killing of a person without the lawful authority granted by a judicial proceeding.

The policeman didn't have the right to shoot, every one agrees with that.
Whether it was a deliberate killing, let the judge decide upon this after proper investigation. I see you already don't use the word execution any more.
We only have a very short video, and we also don't know what happened before the car was stopped and why the policemen drew their guns.
We do know that the victim was to appear before court in september for driving without license and refusing to stop in similar situations.
There is nothing that justifies the riots that occured all over France, and which some rioteers even tried to export to Belgium.