Seima Turbino Ydna discussion and poll

What YDna carriers, were Seima Turbino culture

  • They were N3a B211

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • they were R1a -Z93

    Votes: 2 22.2%
  • they were other Ydna hg

    Votes: 2 22.2%

  • Total voters
    9

Yetos

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Because last week a lot are heard about Seima Turbino,
and their connection with IE in the other side of map, like Myceneans, which apparently show almost zero Altaic component,
and maybe the lowest Steppe admixture,

I would like to post and discuss about their geneticks and evidences,
so to stop polute other threads, with 'out of thread' posting

many people believe that Seima Turbino was R1a, relative of -Z93,
yet many searchers believe they were N3a -B211

I am hosting a part of work, claiming no rights,
and a link

link
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bbib49

hosting a part, (no rights I own)

<< Another pattern involves the similarity in the range of hg N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya.51 Extending across northern Eurasia from Mongolia to the Baltic region, this phenomenon encompasses the cultures of nomadic forest and steppe societies with advanced metal-working technology.51 Taken together, these facts hint at the Seima-Turbino metalsmith-traders as the probable primary carriers of hg N3a3’6 lineages. >>

<< N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have been brought to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups, but earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either, given that a study of ancient DNA52 revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. >>

 
Last edited:
Because last week a lot are heard about Seima Turbino,
and their connection with IE in the other side of map, like Myceneans, which apparently show almost zero Altaic component,
and maybe the lowest Steppe admixture,

I would to post and discuss their geneticks and evidences,
so stop to stop polute other threads, with 'out of thread' posting

many people believe that Seima Turbino was R1a, relative of -Z93,
yet many searchers believe they were N3a -B211

I am hosting a part of work, claiming no rights,
and a link

link
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bbib49

hosting a part, (no rights I own)

<< Another pattern involves the similarity in the range of hg N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya.51 Extending across northern Eurasia from Mongolia to the Baltic region, this phenomenon encompasses the cultures of nomadic forest and steppe societies with advanced metal-working technology.51 Taken together, these facts hint at the Seima-Turbino metalsmith-traders as the probable primary carriers of hg N3a3’6 lineages. >>

<< N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have been brought to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups, but earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either, given that a study of ancient DNA52 revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. >>


I do not know why you hear for it last week since it has been in Eupedia Genetics for many years.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

But it is a good thing that you opened a separate thread for it, so we can shed more light into it.


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I think it will be good for some PHD candidate to research seima turbino, which is totally ignored by scholars negligently or intentionally, b/c phd papers should be a theory, not encyclopedia of knowledge.

So far, SM Elunio culture has one Q1a, where caucasoid skulls were found recently, being different from okunevo. As far as I know, I don't know where their culture ends. When it moves westward, no human bones were found. The culture covers south east asia, bronze china, balkan, mayby copper hoard of India, and finally
iberia & british isle at late bronze age.

In shimao step pyramid in china, the Elunio artifacts were found. (shimao and seima, same word origin?)
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33257-upside-down-pyramids (post 9)

Anthony and Eupedia mentioned that some SM artifacts have a striking similarity with mycenaean's.
The most important thing is they have two snake culture, which okunevo and mesomarica culture have, but the other steppe culture don't have. The snake culture is core part of Hidu, which means sunlight, creation to generate and regenerate life and fire cult. The snake is replaced by thunderbolt of Indra and zeus.
It means that andronovo culture would not related with Aryans, even if they were all same people. So many scholars think copper hoard culure belongs to IVC, but I think it is related with SM, connecting to R1a and M73 in India. Therefore, I think circle b and copper hoard people would have east asian admixture.

Actually Mycenaean, Hindu and china bronze culture have so similar artifacts and philosophy, hence, I think they would be same people from altai:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16669-ZEUS-and-altai-petroglyph&

collective-ritual-image.jpg


413033_122994_800_auto_jpg.jpg

https://www.chinadailyhk.com/articles/58/242/16/1537761232134.html

Aryan sikha:
sikha_thumb_large.jpg

https://prashantmudgal.wordpress.com/2015/11/09/hair-american-indians-buddhist-monks/
 
@ johen

the serpent sky exist in Hettites too
the Illuyanka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuyanka
But they appear to be R1b if not wrong

Yet the slain of sky serpent exist even today only the serpent is in Earth.
saintgeorge-new.jpg



But Mycaenae and Greek world religious seem to be closer to Hurrian and Urartu ones,
The castrate of Supreme God, the human like, thunder holding God, etc, the human like sun.
 
Seyma-:Turbino culture is an interesting phenomenon; the metals findings are they connected to an unique ethny? Good question...
Grigoryev, whose I don't share every conclusion BTW, considers that the S-T metallurgy has its prototypes in Near-Eastern cultures (the womb of everything), and think that this culture in its expansion mixed with a lot other cultures, to form new ones among whom emerged the Celts, before the emergence of Germanics, Balts and Slavs a bit latter, all of them arrived in Europe relatively late, so. Old theories considered rather the S-T culture was almost exclusively the motor or launcher of future Uralic expansions.
I avow I've not clue to date to prove or disprove an ancient or recent presence of Uralic speakers in N-E Europe or the links of Uralic dialects with Y-N1.
It's possible this brutal expansion of S-M was the fact of peri-Altay tribes very mobile, after they learned well metallurgy from S-E Caspian regions, and that they negociated their skills among foreign tribes, not being numerous enough yet to impose their strength. It would be interesting to know if the unity of metallurgy was tied to unity of domestic culture: maybe it was only some kind of nomadic trade rather than a demic emigration of numerous and homogenous people?
 
@ johen

the serpent sky exist in Hettites too
the Illuyanka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuyanka
But they appear to be R1b if not wrong

As far as I know, Hittites have same type of skull as Greek bronze, extremely close to cromagnon. So it would be R1b. However, we think it could be same situation of scythian, who have now r1b-z2103, r1a z93 and Q1a. Pontic scythian have a sunhead culture of barehead with a long braid. They also used human skull as a dring cup like east scythian and american indian archaeologically. I mean that human was ruled by culture, not body. If humans are raised in wolf culture generation by generation, the humans are nothing but wolves.
 
Seyma-:Turbino culture is an interesting phenomenon; the metals findings are they connected to an unique ethny? Good question...
Grigoryev, whose I don't share every conclusion BTW, considers that the S-T metallurgy has its prototypes in Near-Eastern cultures (the womb of everything), and think that this culture in its expansion mixed with a lot other cultures, to form new ones among whom emerged the Celts, before the emergence of Germanics, Balts and Slavs a bit latter, all of them arrived in Europe relatively late, so. Old theories considered rather the S-T culture was almost exclusively the motor or launcher of future Uralic expansions.
I avow I've not clue to date to prove or disprove an ancient or recent presence of Uralic speakers in N-E Europe or the links of Uralic dialects with Y-N1.
It's possible this brutal expansion of S-M was the fact of peri-Altay tribes very mobile, after they learned well metallurgy from S-E Caspian regions, and that they negociated their skills among foreign tribes, not being numerous enough yet to impose their strength. It would be interesting to know if the unity of metallurgy was tied to unity of domestic culture: maybe it was only some kind of nomadic trade rather than a demic emigration of numerous and homogenous people?


:) :) :)

The question that bothers me 2 years now, after Lazarides papper.
is BMAC and Andronovo,
what exchanges of culture happened there, and when.

260px-Indo-Iranian_origins.png
 
As far as I know, Hittites have same type of skull as Greek bronze, extremely close to cromagnon. So it would be R1b. However, we think it could be same situation of scythian, who have now r1b-z2103, r1a z93 and Q1a. Pontic scythian have a sunhead culture of barehead with a long braid. They also used human skull as a dring cup like east scythian and american indian archaeologically. I mean that human was ruled by culture, not body. If humans are raised in wolf culture generation by generation, the humans are nothing but wolves.

just a detail: where have you had the occasion to see BA Greeks sculls? I doubt they were so 'cromagnoid' at those times. Rather heterogenous I think. ANd for Hittites we know little enough, some of them deformed their skulls, I red.
 
@ johen

the serpent sky exist in Hettites too
the Illuyanka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuyanka
But they appear to be R1b if not wrong

Yet the slain of sky serpent exist even today only the serpent is in Earth.
saintgeorge-new.jpg



But Mycaenae and Greek world religious seem to be closer to Hurrian and Urartu ones,
The castrate of Supreme God, the human like, thunder holding God, etc, the human like sun.

Snake is like sun's rays for creation:

2356.jpg

DT5236.jpg


However, I don't know how the concept is connected to mythology of snake, a ruler of underworld, which is killed by sky god:

The Sky God kills the dragon Illuyanka
Museum_of_Anatolian_Civilizations082_kopie1jpg.jpg


mexico city was founded at the spot where eagles(means sky) killed snake:
Coat_of_arms_of_Mexico.svg
 
:) :) :)

The question that bothers me 2 years now, after Lazarides papper.
is BMAC and Andronovo,
what exchanges of culture happened there, and when.

260px-Indo-Iranian_origins.png

an extract of a bigger digest, if useful:
[...
In these graves at Gonur, associated with the early settlement of Gonur North, one horse was found. A brick-lined grave pit contained the contorted bodies of ten adult humans who were apparently killed in the grave itself, one of whom fell across a small funeral wagon with solid wooden wheels. The grave also contained a whole dog, a whole camel, and the decapitated body of a horse foal (the reverse of an Aryan horse sacrifice). This grave is thought to have been a sacrificial offering that accompanied a nearby “royal” tomb. The royal tomb contained funeral gifts that included a bronze image of a horse head, probably a pommel decoration on a wooden staff. Another horse head image appeared as a decoration on a crested copper axe of the BMAC type, unfortunately obtained on the art market and now housed in the Louvre. Finally, a BMAC-style seal probably looted from a BMAC cemetery in Bactria (Afghanistan) showed a man riding a galloping equid that looks very much like a horse (see figure 16.3). The design was similar to the contemporary galloping-horse-and-rider image on the Ur III seal of Abbakalla, dated 2040–2050 BCE. Both seals showed a galloping horse, a rider with a hair-knot on the back of his head, and a man walking.
These finds suggest that horses began to appear in Central Asia about 2100–2000 BCE but never were used for food. They appeared only as decorative symbols on high-status objects and, in one case, in a funeral sacrifice. Given their simultaneous appearance across Iran and Mesopotamia, and the position of BMAC between the steppes and the southern civilizations, horses were probably a trade commodity. After chariots were introduced to the princes of the BMAC, Iran, and the Near East around 2000–1900 BCE, the demand for horses could easily have been on the order of tens of thousands of animals annually.17
Steppe Immigrants in Central Asia
Fred Hiebert’s excavations at the walled town of Gonur North in Margiana, dated 2100–2000 BCE, turned up a few sherds of strange pottery, unlike any other pottery at Gonur. It was made with a paddle-and-anvil technique on a cloth-lined form—the clay was pounded over an upright cloth-covered pot to make the basic shape, and then was removed and finished. This is how Sintashta pottery was made. These strange sherds were imported from the steppe. At this stage (equivalent to early Sintashta) there was very little steppe pottery at Gonur, but it was there, at the same time a horse foal was thrown into a sacrificial pit in the Gonur North cemetery. Another possible trace of this early phase of contact were “Abashevo-like” pottery sherds decorated with horizontal channels, found at the tin miners’ camp at Karnab on the lower Zeravshan. Late Abashevo was contemporary with Sintashta.
During the classic phase of the BMAC, 2000–1800 BCE, contact with steppe people became much more visible. Steppe pots were brought into the rural stronghold at Togolok 1 in Margiana, inside the larger palace/temple at Togolok 21, inside the central citadel at Gonur South, and inside the walled palace/temple at Djarkutan in Bactria (figure 16.6). These sherds were clearly from steppe cultures. Similar designs can be found on Sintashta pots at Krivoe Ozero (k. 9, gr. 3; k. 10, gr. 13) but were more common on pottery of early Andronovo (Alakul variant) type, dated after 1900–1800 BCE—pottery like that used by the Andronovo miners at Karnab. Although the amount of steppe pottery in classic BMAC sites is small, it is widespread, and there is no doubt that it derived from northern steppe cultures. In these contexts, dated 2000–1800 BCE, the most likely steppe sources were the Petrovka culture at Tugai or the first Alakul-Andronovo tin miners at Karnab, both located in the Zeravshan valley.18
The Petrovka settlement at Tugai appeared just 27 km downstream (west) of Sarazm, not far from the later site of Samarkand, the greatest caravan trading city of medieval Central Asia. Perhaps Tugai had a similar, if more modest, function in an early north-south trade network. The Petrovka culture (see below) was an eastern offshoot of Sintashta. The Petrovka people at Tugai constructed two copper-smelting ovens, crucibles with copper slag, and at least one dwelling. Their pottery included at least twenty-two pots made with the paddle-and-anvil technique on a cloth-lined form. Most of them were made of clay tempered with crushed shell, the standard mixture for Petrovka potters, but two were tempered with crushed talc/steatite minerals. Talc-tempered clays were typical of Sintashta, Abashevo, and even forest-zone pottery of Ural forager cultures, so these two pots probably were carried to the Zeravshan from the Ural steppes. The pottery shapes and impressed designs were classic early Petrovka (figure 16.7). A substantial group of Petrovka people apparently moved from the Ural-Ishim steppes to Tugai, probably in wagons loaded with pottery and other possessions. They left garbage middens with the bones of cattle, sheep, and goats, but they did not eat horses—although their Petrovka relatives in the northern steppes did. Tugai also contained sherds of wheel-made cups in red-polished and black-polished fabrics typical of the latest phase at Sarazm (IV). The principal activity identified in the small excavated area was copper smelting.19
image143.jpg
Figure 16.6 A whole steppe pot found inside the walls of the Gonur South town, after Hiebert 1994; steppe sherds with zig-zag decoration found inside the walls of Togolok 1, after Kuzmina 2003; and similar motifs on Sintashta sherds from graves at Krivoe Ozero, Ural steppes, after Vinogradov 2003, figures 39 and 74.
image144.jpg
Figure 16.7 The Petrovka settlement at Tugai on the Zeravshan River: (top) plan of excavation; (center left) imported redware pottery like that of Sarazm IV; (center right) two coarse ceramic crucibles from the metal-working area; (bottom) Petrovka pottery. Adapted from Avanessova 1996.
The steppe immigrants at Tugai brought chariots with them. A grave at Zardcha-Khalifa 1 km east of Sarazm contained a male buried in a contracted pose on his right side, head to the northwest, in a large oval pit, 3.2 m by 2.1 m, with the skeleton of a ram.20 The grave gifts included three wheel-made Namazga VI ceramic pots, typical of the wares made in Bactrian sites of the BMAC such as Sappali and Dzharkutan; a trough-spouted bronze vessel (typical of BMAC) and fragments of two others; a pair of gold trumpet-shaped earrings; a gold button; a bronze straight-pin with a small cast horse on one end; a stone pestle; two bronze bar bits with looped ends; and two largely complete bone disc-shaped cheekpieces of the Sintashta type, with fragments of two others (figure 16.8). The two bronze bar bits are the oldest known metal bits anywhere. With the four cheekpieces they suggest equipment for a chariot team. The cheekpieces were a specific Sintashta type (the raised bump around the central hole is the key typological detail), though disc-shaped studded cheekpieces also appeared in many Petrovka graves. Stone pestles also frequently appeared in Sintashta and Petrovka graves. The Zardcha-Khalifa grave probably was that of an immigrant from the north who had acquired many BMAC luxury objects. He was buried with the only known BMAC-made pin with the figure of a horse—perhaps made just for him. The Zardcha-Khalifa chief may have been a horse dealer. The Zeravshan valley and the Ferghana valley just to the north might have become the breeding ground at this time for the fine horses for which they were known in later antiquity.
The fabric-impressed pottery and the sacrificed horse foal at Gonur North and perhaps the Abashevo (?) sherds at Karnab represent the exploratory phase of contact and trade between the northern steppes and the southern urban civilizations about 2100–2000 BCE, during the period when the kings of Ur III still dominated Elam. Information and perhaps even cult practices from the south flowed back to early Sintashta societies. On the eastern frontier in Kazakhstan, where Petrovka was budding off from Sintashta, the lure of the south prompted a migration across more than a thousand kilometers of hostile desert. The establishment of the Petrovka metal-working colony at Tugai, probably around 1900 BCE, was the beginning of the second phase, marked by the actual migration of chariot-driving tribes from the north into Central Asia. Sarazm and the irrigation-fed Zaman-Baba villages were abandoned about when the Petrovka miners arrived at Tugai. The steppe tribes quickly appropriated the ore sources of the Zeravshan, and their horses and chariots might have made it impossible for the men of Sarazm to defend themselves.
...] from:
https://erenow.net/ancient/the-horse-the-wheel-and.../16.php
 
Recent genetic testings of sites in south Siberia and Kazakhstan (Andronovo horizon) would rather support a spreading of the bronze technology via Indo-European migrations eastwards, as this technology was well known for quite a while in western regions putting in question the spread of Uralic languages via Seima-Turbino Culture.


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@ Moesan

So we see steppe cultures elements, to enter BMAC,
even eliminate parts of irrigated agriculture,
But we do not see element of Near/Middle East cultures to enter steppe cultures,

I know that they share almost same Ydna R1a,
yet since tottaly diferrent cultures shouldn\t that (Ydna) be different?
 
Last edited:
The Mettalurgy of Seima turbino


On the book of Roberts and Thorton, ISBN 9781461490173
it is clear that Seima Turbino uses 2 kinds of bronze,
the one is typical the Arsenic bronze which is rather a mettalurgy of steppe, and around Yamnaa to steppe, S Urals
and the other is the mettalurgy of Tin bronze,
the Tin Bronze is connected with S Caucasos and Near/middle east as far as I know.
Yet in Seima Turbino, the Tin as ingredient is from Altai mt, !!!!
 

the wood as main material in Seima Turbino

Interesting is also the wood in chariots,
by understanding that industry mainly uses cheap local products,
Notice Egypt used pappyros for ships.
Seima turbino mobility instrument start might be from areas with enough and strong tree/wood coverage, possibly not the open arid steppe.
 
Recent genetic testings of sites in south Siberia and Kazakhstan (Andronovo horizon) would rather support a spreading of the bronze technology via Indo-European migrations eastwards, as this technology was well known for quite a while in western regions putting in question the spread of Uralic languages via Seima-Turbino Culture.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

in the Han formation period, Q1a-M120 was detected in elite burials
 
The Mettalurgy of Seima turbino


On the book of Roberts and Thorton, ISBN 9781461490173
it is clear that Seima Turbino uses 2 kinds of bronze,
the one is typical the Arsenic bronze which is rather a mettalurgy of steppe, and around Yamnaa to steppe, S Urals
and the other is the mettalurgy of Tin bronze,
the Tin Bronze is connected with S Caucasos and Near/middle east as far as I know.
Yet in Seima Turbino, the Tin as ingredient is from Altai mt, !!!!

As far as I know, west ural part of ST has arsenic bronze, but east ural part of ST Tin. The place of tin mining in steppe is east kazark and the altai. Sintashta arsenic and seima turbino tin technology originated from south caucasus.
Two technology at the same time and How? I just think they would copy the technology by stealing technologists from the caucasus.
More question is where andronovo tin power came from.
 

the wood as main material in Seima Turbino

Interesting is also the wood in chariots,
by understanding that industry mainly uses cheap local products,
Notice Egypt used pappyros for ships.
Seima turbino mobility instrument start might be from areas with enough and strong tree/wood coverage, possibly not the open arid steppe.

Does the book mention about seima turbino chariot?
Caucasus type chariot was found in china bronze where ST and karasuk entered. In copper hoard near IVC Very sophisticated chariot was found, where I think the ST culture penetrated. As far as I know, no chariots were found in seima turbino tombs.
 
Does the book mention about seima turbino chariot?
Caucasus type chariot was found in china bronze where ST and karasuk entered. In copper hoard near IVC Very sophisticated chariot was found, where I think the ST culture penetrated. As far as I know, no chariots were found in seima turbino tombs.


No the book does not mention about chariots,
But most works I 've recently look, say about Forest zones,

areas of more Northern than the arid steppes,
 
<< Another pattern involves the similarity in the range of hg N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya.51 Extending across northern Eurasia from Mongolia to the Baltic region, this phenomenon encompasses the cultures of nomadic forest and steppe societies with advanced metal-working technology.51 Taken together, these facts hint at the Seima-Turbino metalsmith-traders as the probable primary carriers of hg N3a3’6 lineages. >>

<< N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have been brought to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups, but earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either, given that a study of ancient DNA52 revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. >>

thanks for sharing the information , I find it very helpful in understand the westward spread of the Northern Eurasians. There is a very ancient book "shanhaijing "(山海经) known to the English readership as 'The Book of Mountains and Seas " ,which is believed to have been compiled somewhere around 2300BC . The second and third volumns :the west mountains and the northern mountains (西山经,北山经)detail all the geographical landmarks from the most northern and eastern tip of northeast China all the way to great Caucasos mountain and the peoples or tribes living there . I believe this book can throw great light on the routes the Eurasian steppe people took to spread .
 

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