Seima Turbino Ydna discussion and poll

What YDna carriers, were Seima Turbino culture

  • They were N3a B211

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • they were R1a -Z93

    Votes: 2 22.2%
  • they were other Ydna hg

    Votes: 2 22.2%

  • Total voters
    9
[FONT=&quot]Overall, a considerable proportion of men inhabiting much of the Arctic and temperate zones of western and eastern Eurasia share N3a3’6 lineages that date back to the mid-Holocene (4.5–5.0 kya). This common patrilineal ancestry unites widely different linguistic phyla, including Indo-European, particularly Balto-Slavic, branches of the Altaic, such as the Mongolic, Turkic, Tungusic, and Chukotko-Kamchatkan branches, as well as the Balto-Finnic branch of the Finno-Ugric。

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5005449/#mmc2[/FONT]
 
As far as I know, west ural part of ST has arsenic bronze, but east ural part of ST Tin. The place of tin mining in steppe is east kazark and the altai. Sintashta arsenic and seima turbino tin technology originated from south caucasus.
Two technology at the same time and How? I just think they would copy the technology by stealing technologists from the caucasus.
More question is where andronovo tin power came from. reposted from Johen's comment
 
As far as I know, west ural part of ST has arsenic bronze, but east ural part of ST Tin. The place of tin mining in steppe is east kazark and the altai. Sintashta arsenic and seima turbino tin technology originated from south caucasus.
Two technology at the same time and How? I just think they would copy the technology by stealing technologists from the caucasus.
More question is where andronovo tin power came from. reposted from Johen's comment

We don't have good metal age dates from the Iranian plateau yet, but I believe the local sites to be among the earliest. I'd guess those technologies spread into Inner Asia from there.
 
I think sintashta migration is just a part of huge ST culture migrations. Regarding PIE, the sintashta is a very important position to connect west to south asia. But see their migration,
did they reach the altai by chariot?

see what WSHG did on foot.
They reached whole eurasia. I think they did north east asia also to make altai language family have tons of similar words to tamil. How about EHG? EHG R1a carried late baikal pottery and mtDNA C, being buried like WSHG, who introduced the supine type into east europe. wait and see sumer result also.

I don't know what the sintashta people did with the worldly-praising chariot.
Moreover, their horse is genetically arctic horse like east scythian horse.

iir_mfa6ns5v.png
 
hm

Interesting,

So the Questions now are,


Trialeti culture, known for socketed items,
How much ST could be? or the oposite, ST how much Trialeti can be?

and if Athanashevo is from Yamnaans? arsenic bronze,
How come Okunevo are tin miners and mettalurgists? rather a S caucasos mining,
 
hm

Interesting,

So the Questions now are,


Trialeti culture, known for socketed items,
How much ST could be? or the oposite, ST how much Trialeti can be?

and if Athanashevo is from Yamnaans? arsenic bronze,
How come Okunevo are tin miners and mettalurgists? rather a S caucasos mining,

tracing metals?

Anyway, Afanasievo with 2 Q1a(not outlier) couldn't be from yamna. The afanasievo doesn't have whg and GAC , which yamna samples have. Now 3 options are left regarding the origin of afanasievo.

OKunevo imorted new western mtDNA, which is maybe related with Tin technology. Considering their maximum cruelty, they stole technicians from BMAC? I think it was and is a rule to steal technology and dominate world with maximum brutality.

mtdna-ydna-afanasevo-okunevo.jpg

iir_mfa6ns5v.png

And also okunevo culture went down to IVC valley, and its artifact has something to do with ancient Greek.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16669-ZEUS-and-altai-petroglyph (post 10)
 
OKunevo imorted new western mtDNA, which is maybe related with Tin technology. Considering their maximum cruelty, they stole technicians from BMAC? I think it was and is a rule to steal technology and dominate world with maximum brutality.

And also okunevo culture went down to IVC valley, and its artifact has something to do with ancient Greek.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16669-ZEUS-and-altai-petroglyph (post 10)

a finish scholar explained seima turbino phenomenon as a ST network, but looks like he did not know who the altai people were at that time. ST and its relative culture reached china where their cruelty appeared. And this kind of brutal culture continued in east asia:

abstract records on human sacrifice have been revealed by the oracle-bone inscriptions of shang dynasty. human sacrifices carry special symbolic significance in shang dynasty for worshipping spirits. different methods of killing were used in worship rituals. as the inscription reveals, some words are used as the methods of killing of human beings in general. in the meantime, some special characters are used to refer to specific killing methods through analysis of the characters and structures of the language. the lecture will focus on 12 different methods of killing human sacrifice. the methods include beheading, splitting the body into halves, dismembering bodies, beating to death, chopping to death, extracting blood, burying alive, drowning, burning to death, boiling, corpse displaying, exposing body part to hot sun. with the analysis of the different methods of human sacrifice, it is easy to conclude that human sacrifice was a very common religious practice in shang dynasty. these practices reflect the cruelty of the rulers to their subjects and their piety towards the spirits they worship.
 
chromosomes from a collection of 6,521 samples from 56 populations. The more southerly distributed sub-clade N4 emerged before N2a1 and N3, found mostly in the north, but the latter two display more elaborate branching patterns, indicative of regional contrasts in recent expansions. In particular, a number of prominent and well-defined clades with common N3a3’6 ancestry occur in regionally dissimilar northern Eurasian populations, indicating almost simultaneous regional diversification and expansion within the last 5,000 years. This patrilineal genetic affinity is decoupled from the associated higher degree of language diversity.

https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(16)30160-4
 
@xiao

your attachment is invalid,

plz reset and replace.
 
turbino figurine

got one email, the first figurine came from Taiwan , China, (畀南遗址由碳十四定年法推算,卑南遗址存在的年代大约是距今5,300至2,300年前,其中又以距今3,500至2300年前最为兴盛)。Binan Site from Taiwan is dated as 5,300BP to 2,300 BP, its peak day is from 3,500 to 2,300 BP。
 
Last edited:
<< Another pattern involves the similarity in the range of hg N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya.51 Extending across northern Eurasia from Mongolia to the Baltic region, this phenomenon encompasses the cultures of nomadic forest and steppe societies with advanced metal-working technology.51 Taken together, these facts hint at the Seima-Turbino metalsmith-traders as the probable primary carriers of hg N3a3’6 lineages. >>

<< N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have been brought to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups, but earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either, given that a study of ancient DNA52 revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. >>
 
many people believe that Seima Turbino was R1a, relative of -Z93,
yet many searchers believe they were N3a -B211

I am hosting a part of work, claiming no rights,
and a link

link
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bbib49

hosting a part, (no rights I own)

<< Another pattern involves the similarity in the range of hg N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya.51 Extending across northern Eurasia from Mongolia to the Baltic region, this phenomenon encompasses the cultures of nomadic forest and steppe societies with advanced metal-working technology.51 Taken together, these facts hint at the Seima-Turbino metalsmith-traders as the probable primary carriers of hg N3a3’6 lineages. >>
<< N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have been brought to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups, but earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either, given that a study of ancient DNA52 revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. >>

the population size started to grow right at the 7,500 year time from Siberia, I think it has something to do with the steady development of agriculture in east end of the Eurasia.
N系人口增长的曲线图.JPG
 
got one email, the first figurine came from Taiwan , China, (畀南遗址由碳十四定年法推算,卑南遗址存在的年代大约是距今5,300至2,300年前,其中又以距今3,500至2300年前最为兴盛)。Binan Site from Taiwan is dated as 5,300BP to 2,300 BP, its peak day is from 3,500 to 2,300 BP。
Can you give us more information or link related with the site?

Seima turbino culture reached erlitou culture( so called Xia dynasty) and far to southeast 2,000bc. Moreover their knives were found in shimao step pyramid in north china:

Figure 4. Drawing of three single-edged knives: a) of the Elunio culture ( one of seima turbino culture), 2000–1800 BC, Russian Altai, length around 220mm; b) from Shimao, 2000–1800 BC, length around 100mm:c) Erlitou, 1700–1600 BC, length around 255mm (drawing by John Rawson).

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour.../672573C3699701D312E7D2286B973D5F/core-reader


urn:cambridge.org:id:binary:20180104010448536-0636:S0003598X16002349:S0003598X16002349_fig4g.gif


urn:cambridge.org:id:binary-alt:20170920130655-24645-optimisedImage-S0003598X17001776_fig1g.jpg



https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour.../69E7A6EE63F38C7D5B2B0612E48DE264/core-reader[/QUOTE]
 
Seyma-:Turbino culture is an interesting phenomenon; the metals findings are they connected to an unique ethny? Good question...
Grigoryev, whose I don't share every conclusion BTW, considers that the S-T metallurgy has its prototypes in Near-Eastern cultures (the womb of everything), and think that this culture in its expansion mixed with a lot other cultures, to form new ones among whom emerged the Celts, before the emergence of Germanics, Balts and Slavs a bit latter, all of them arrived in Europe relatively late, so. Old theories considered rather the S-T culture was almost exclusively the motor or launcher of future Uralic expansions.
I avow I've not clue to date to prove or disprove an ancient or recent presence of Uralic speakers in N-E Europe or the links of Uralic dialects with Y-N1.
It's possible this brutal expansion of S-M was the fact of peri-Altay tribes very mobile, after they learned well metallurgy from S-E Caspian regions, and that they negociated their skills among foreign tribes, not being numerous enough yet to impose their strength. It would be interesting to know if the unity of metallurgy was tied to unity of domestic culture: maybe it was only some kind of nomadic trade rather than a demic emigration of numerous and homogenous people?

Are those all related with celtic people?

I think seima turbino culture surely entered south India with altai culture like pyramid/ snake culture/ maybe mayan yoga/ may okunevo sunhead and thunderbolt creator concept/ maybe third eye culture of okunevo, of which petroglyphs were found near IVC according Karl Zettmar. Moreover the culture reached to china bronze where PIE were found: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16669-ZEUS-and-altai-petroglyph&p=572911 (post 17)



breaking metals and handling ideas about bronze age hoards from western iberia also. who brought that?


A-Barrenhas-or-Vilela-Seca-hoard-according-to-Villas-Boas-1948-Lam-2-B-Moura-da.ppm

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ra_Ed_Fragmentation_and_depositions_in_Pre_an


Did seima turbino culture land on British isles? Who brought it over there?
Is it possible that british people started to speak IE since then?


bronze-age.jpg



https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/treasure-trove-bronze-age-artefacts-3407818


Model-of-the-proposed-spread-of-socketed-axes-from-east-to-west-At-present-radiocarbon.png
 
^
Was celtic people called as Celt, b/c they were using celt(tool)?

seima turbino celts
Celts_Seima-Turbino_GIM.jpg
 
^
Was celtic people called as Celt, b/c they were using celt(tool)?

seima turbino celts
Celts_Seima-Turbino_GIM.jpg

t's only a hazard, I think. The english 'celt' is from latin 'celtis' = "chisel" -
 
@Johen
Grigoryev wrote the following:
[...settlements with round plan, ceramics with roller, bone plate armours, developed metallurgy and domestic
animals.During XVI-XV centuries artefacts closely related to Seyma tradition became typical for hoards in Pannonia, France and England. Thus, these bronzes distribution marks the moving of Celts.A new wave of newcomers left F’odorovo culture sites. Some include usually this culture, together withAlakul culture, in Andronovo culture. However, all attempts to find its local roots had no success. But theseroots are in North-Western Iran and South Azerbaijan: cremation in stone boxes and cysts under mounds, clayprops for hearth, oval dishes, polished ware. Complex of metal have analogies in Circumpontic area, but first ofall, in Sumbar culture in South-Western Turkmenistan. Potteries from Central Asia have been found in someF’odorovo sites.Typical F’odorovo artefacts are known up to Dnieper river. However, a contact of F’odorovo tribes withfirst wave of newcomers is more important for us. As a result of this contact new cultures were formed, whichfix this contact and a gradual displacement of these populations to the West: Chernoozerie in Irtish basin,Cherkaskul in the Urals, Suskan and Prikazanskaia in Volga-Kama region, Pozdniakovo in Oka basin. Thesecultures combine cremation and inhumation, mounds and flat burials, bronzes of Seyma and F’odorovo types.Next moving of these tribes to the West leads to forming of Sosnitzkaia culture on the left-bank ofDnieper, Trzciniec-Komarov culture from Dnieper to Vistula and Tumulus culture in Central and NorthernEurope. These cultures reflect localisation of Balts, Slavs and Germans...]

Ancient scholars spoke of possible influences from Siberia and even China upon La Tène; and of strong Scythian technics influences upon the same La Tène; but it's very later than the 16th/15th Centuries BC. But cultural or technical input is not by force an ethnic one. That said the 15th Cy could correspond to the Tumuli culture of Bavaria and Central Europe which is seen as Celtic or Italo-Celtic by a lot of people; Personally I think proto-Celts are older than Tumuli, and linked to Y-R1b-P312. It would not be the first time that some foreign newcomers integrated and even dominated other culture, forming the elite with new artefacts, despite forming only a minority concerning number and loosing its proper language and demic input after some later generations - the mysterious "Illyrians" did maybe the geographical link between Celto-Italics and Steppes of the time? By instance, the "Celtic" Hallstatt elite of Wurttemberg/Bavaria showed 1/4 of physically newcomers of a mix with evident "proto-europoid" types input, maybe not too different from some 'corded' types, close to other newcomers of the same period in High-Austria, Low-Austria, Croatia, Slavonia, Hungary and Silesia; Illyrians are supposed to have cut off Celts and Italics according to some people? Or others ???
among Celts their demic input seems having merely disappeared in La Tène; maybe not their imports? There is no link to the Seyma-Turbino question but it shows demic/ethnic input can be very lighter than the cultural one. People loan and adapt. Celts were very smart at this sport.
 

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