Seima Turbino Ydna discussion and poll

What YDna carriers, were Seima Turbino culture

  • They were N3a B211

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • they were R1a -Z93

    Votes: 2 22.2%
  • they were other Ydna hg

    Votes: 2 22.2%

  • Total voters
    9
t's only a hazard, I think. The english 'celt' is from latin 'celtis' = "chisel" -

So the celts were chisel people. However, the shape of chisel and seima celt is similar.

greek chisel:
SCmovieGreekChisel-800x571.jpg

https://sites.duke.edu/nashervirtue/stone-carving-tools/

Considering B:
A-Barrenhas-or-Vilela-Seca-hoard-according-to-Villas-Boas-1948-Lam-2-B-Moura-da.ppm

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ra_Ed_Fragmentation_and_depositions_in_Pre_an

The copper hoard people in india also had chisel shape 5, torcs shape 8 artifacts.
Ind_cu_hoard_groups.svg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_Hoard_Culture
 
@Johen
Grigoryev wrote the following:
[...settlements with round plan, ceramics with roller, bone plate armours, developed metallurgy and domestic
animals.During XVI-XV centuries artefacts closely related to Seyma tradition became typical for hoards in Pannonia, France and England. Thus, these bronzes distribution marks the moving of Celts.A new wave of newcomers left F’odorovo culture sites. Some include usually this culture, together withAlakul culture, in Andronovo culture. However, all attempts to find its local roots had no success. But theseroots are in North-Western Iran and South Azerbaijan: cremation in stone boxes and cysts under mounds, clayprops for hearth, oval dishes, polished ware. Complex of metal have analogies in Circumpontic area, but first ofall, in Sumbar culture in South-Western Turkmenistan. Potteries from Central Asia have been found in someF’odorovo sites.Typical F’odorovo artefacts are known up to Dnieper river. However, a contact of F’odorovo tribes withfirst wave of newcomers is more important for us. As a result of this contact new cultures were formed, whichfix this contact and a gradual displacement of these populations to the West: Chernoozerie in Irtish basin,Cherkaskul in the Urals, Suskan and Prikazanskaia in Volga-Kama region, Pozdniakovo in Oka basin. Thesecultures combine cremation and inhumation, mounds and flat burials, bronzes of Seyma and F’odorovo types.Next moving of these tribes to the West leads to forming of Sosnitzkaia culture on the left-bank ofDnieper, Trzciniec-Komarov culture from Dnieper to Vistula and Tumulus culture in Central and NorthernEurope. These cultures reflect localisation of Balts, Slavs and Germans...]

I think we don't have any records to prove that yamna, bellbeaker or sintashta spoke PIE. However, I am sure that PIE were found at similar time of the celts, ancient greek, india bronze and china bronze, of which common denominator seems to be seima turbino. I hope Bostonians dig in right place of greece and India this time.
 
I think we don't have any records to prove that yamna, bellbeaker or sintashta spoke PIE. However, I am sure that PIE were found at similar time of the celts, ancient greek, india bronze and china bronze, of which common denominator seems to be seima turbino. I hope Bostonians dig in right place of greece and India this time.

I agree,we don't have any proof. Only more or less reasonable speculations. That said, I copied this extract of Grigoryev, but I'm not persuaded of his accuracy here!
According to the few and little I red and my proper approximations it seems to me PIE preceded the MB and LB times, and was rather at the articulation of MLN and EBA. And I cannot put all these cultures on the same "plan" chronologically -
&: just for the fun (I beg the pardon of all forumers here), did you know the French orteil ('toe') is a deformation of arteil from latin articulus ?(look "articulation"!)
 
So the celts were chisel people. However, the shape of chisel and seima celt is similar.

I did ot pay attention to this affirmation of yours.
NO, we cannot conclude so straightforwards that Celts = people of the celts!
I don't know the term in ancient greek for "celt"; concerning the latin form ("celtis"), it is without link with Celtic reality because the first Celts Latins saw were named 'Galli' by them, not 'Celti': 'Celt' is from Greek 'Keltoi', or I missed something. Maybe not a pan-ethnic term but rather a tribal name?
Perhaps 'Celt' has an ancient link with Germanic 'held'< 'helt' ? (I have not the ancient Germanic form).
 
From Seima-Turbino traditions in Northern France:
214-edb5d7ce43.jpg


To china:
urn:cambridge.org:id:binary-alt:20170920130655-24645-optimisedImage-S0003598X17001776_fig1g.jpg

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour.../69E7A6EE63F38C7D5B2B0612E48DE264/core-reader

Seima turbino's maximum brutality and tin weapon supremacy, which reminds me of mongol. They also seems to establish their empire from china bronze to europe like mongol.

There is, probably, one more testimony to the invasion of Central Europe by the Seima-Turbino peoples. On Bronze Age settlements in Saxony, burials are known of skulls and pieces of bones showing signs of cannibalism. Unfortunately, the publication does not define more exactly to which period these finds relate [Grimm, 1997]. In particular, many simi-lar finds have been made in Slovakia, on settlements of the Veterov, Madjarovce and Otomani cultures.They are known on Unětice settlements very rarely.Often, traces of scraping and incisions are visible on bones, and the cooking of body parts is not ex-cluded. Sometimes there are pieces of skull. A cer-emonial mask found on the Nitriansky Hrádok set-tlement, made from the front of a skull, is especiallyinteresting [Furmanek, Jakab, 1997]. It should be noted that the distribution here of bronzes of Seima-Turbino type is dated exactly to this time and found on settlements of this group. The connection of suchrituals with these cultural groups can be demon-strated also by an example from South-WesternPoland, where, at the end of phase Br A2, the NowaGerekwia Group occurs, whose formation is usuallyconnected with the abovementioned cultural devel-opments in Slovakia. At this time both fortified set-tlements and burials on settlements appeared here.Very often there are separate human bones, espe-cially skulls and pieces of skull. It was uncharacter-istic of Unětice culture and is subsequently absentfrom Trzciniec culture.
Essential changes in metalworking occurred inthe Middle Bronze Age [Megaw, Simpson, 1979, p.207], of which the appearance of arrowheads look-ing back to Seima-Turbino forms is of most interestto us. They have a cast elongated round socket, awide long blade, and a round or rhombic socket-shank. On the socket there are eyes for attachment(Fig. 78.3,4). Some sockets are ornamented withtriangles or zigzags which correspond closely toSeima tradition [Ehrenberg, 1977]. Middle BronzeAge hoards also contain celts with a side eye [Farley,1979]. In addition to objects linked with Seima-Turbino metalworking, metal of Central Europeanorigin occurs in the Wessex complexes, in particu-lar, pins of Unětician types [Megaw, Simpson, 1979, p. 227].
https://www.academia.edu/3742220/Ancient_Indo-Europeans._Chelyabinsk_Rifei_2002
 
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I did ot pay attention to this affirmation of yours.
NO, we cannot conclude so straightforwards that Celts = people of the celts!
I don't know the term in ancient greek for "celt"; concerning the latin form ("celtis"), it is without link with Celtic reality because the first Celts Latins saw were named 'Galli' by them, not 'Celti': 'Celt' is from Greek 'Keltoi', or I missed something. Maybe not a pan-ethnic term but rather a tribal name?
Perhaps 'Celt' has an ancient link with Germanic 'held'< 'helt' ? (I have not the ancient Germanic form).

[ The Gauls of Gallia Celtica according to the testimony of Caesar called themselves Celtae in their own language (as distinct from Belgae and Aquitani), and Galli in Latin.[2] As is not unusual with ancient ethnonyms, these names came to be applied more widely than their original sense, Celtae being the origin of the term Celts itself (in its modern meaning referring to all populations speaking a language of the "Celtic" branch of Indo-European) while Galli is the origin of the adjective Gallic, now referring to all of Gaul.]

Do you know what the celtae means?
 
[ The Gauls of Gallia Celtica according to the testimony of Caesar called themselves Celtae in their own language (as distinct from Belgae and Aquitani), and Galli in Latin.[2] As is not unusual with ancient ethnonyms, these names came to be applied more widely than their original sense, Celtae being the origin of the term Celts itself (in its modern meaning referring to all populations speaking a language of the "Celtic" branch of Indo-European) while Galli is the origin of the adjective Gallic, now referring to all of Gaul.]

Do you know what the celtae means?

Maybe you're right - in my remembrance, 'Keltoi' was mentioned by Greeks who colonized the Provence in Southeastern Gallia and the term was taken by Latins later under the form 'Celtae' - 'Galati' was to name the Celts of Eastern Europe, maybe without link with Galli - But you can read Wikipedia, for the worth it has or lacks. They mention hypothesis for the name 'Celt' - It is very debated and I have no clues to say which explanation is valuable. I suppose 'Celt' (or one form of it) is an endonyme, withtout solid proof.
 
The Cina symbol and other symbols of close shape (some turning on the opposite direction) seems having been widely spred, as the "swastika' so appreciated by Nazis. I don't know the value we can give to this kind of ressemblances of designs... Fashions were already existing and we cannot always said the depth of their links with ancestry.
 
Maybe you're right - in my remembrance, 'Keltoi' was mentioned by Greeks who colonized the Provence in Southeastern Gallia and the term was taken by Latins later under the form 'Celtae' - 'Galati' was to name the Celts of Eastern Europe, maybe without link with Galli - But you can read Wikipedia, for the worth it has or lacks. They mention hypothesis for the name 'Celt' - It is very debated and I have no clues to say which explanation is valuable. I suppose 'Celt' (or one form of it) is an endonyme, withtout solid proof.

Do you know the origin of the coat of arms of France? Is it from Gaul?
it
I think eagle means sky, and sky is Zeus. Thus the emblem means like a zeus with a thunderbolt.
Insigne_Francum_Napoleonis.svg


"English: Imperial Coat of Arms of the French First Empire(1804-1815), under Napoleon Bonaparte. The Arms depicts a shield with a golden eagle in front of a blue background, within its talons clutching a thunderbolt."

it is same as the emblem of mexico. A snake can be replaced by a thunderbolt.
Coat_of_arms_of_Mexico.svg


see also mycenaean aka zeus burial and scythian enblem.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16669-ZEUS-and-altai-petroglyph/page2 (post 16)
 
I've no knowledge (todate) about symbols and religion of Celts - I read somewhere boar and lark were among their "totemic" animals but without certainty.
 
Do you know the origin of the coat of arms of France? Is it from Gaul?
it
I think eagle means sky, and sky is Zeus. Thus the emblem means like a zeus with a thunderbolt.
Insigne_Francum_Napoleonis.svg


"English: Imperial Coat of Arms of the French First Empire(1804-1815), under Napoleon Bonaparte. The Arms depicts a shield with a golden eagle in front of a blue background, within its talons clutching a thunderbolt."

it is same as the emblem of mexico. A snake can be replaced by a thunderbolt.
Coat_of_arms_of_Mexico.svg


see also mycenaean aka zeus burial and scythian enblem.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16669-ZEUS-and-altai-petroglyph/page2 (post 16)

In ancient greek coins, eagles clutch thunderbolts.
However, the Bonaparte eagle is a symbol of imperial Rome, Jupiter’s bird. In ancient sicily coin and statue from roman britain,
eagle seizes snake like Mexican eagle emblem.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16669-ZEUS-and-altai-petroglyph/page3 (post 28)
 

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