Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

[LeBrok]

Read this http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2013/02/27/the-myth-of-russias-brain-drain/
it's destroys your arguments

Destroys? Perhaps, tone down? As a "real" Russian you are lacking moderation in your posts, either you have to win or die, lol.

Article says that emigration cooled down in Russia last few years, that's all. It is still there, and thanks to Putin should skyrocket again in near future. Just wait few years.

 

[Anton Bear's den]

it would be far better for Russia if they did NOT annex Crimea but let it be independent ( sovereign nation ). Only then could they ( russians) justify their early claims.

Crimea lacks sources of fresh water, too vulnerable position to be fully independent. Anyway westerners would start manipulations of new government, like blackmailing of Crimean officials if some of them will have money or property on the west. The request will be the same - to get rid from RF fleet and to join their "unions". So idea of Crimean independent state is unrealizable.

Yanukovych refused to sign association with the European Union and as a result got violent revolution. Yankees spent around 5 billions on organizing a coup there. What prevents them to prepare another orange revolution in the lesser piece?

 

[Anton Bear's den]

Destroys? Perhaps, tone down? As a "real" Russian you are lacking moderation in your posts, either you have to win or die, lol.

Article says that emigration cooled down in Russia last few years, that's all. It is still there, and thanks to Putin should skyrocket again in near future. Just wait few years.

All your posts can be reduced to one Lebrock: "wait 3-5 years damn ruskies and we will made a revolution in your country too!

hehehehe..."

While I think that it will not happen, RF too flexible and smart for this, experience of Red totalitarian dictatorship also helps to limit the influence of western "friends" here. Better watch for Quebec, who knows maybe it also will express the desire to join Russia one day

 

[Aberdeen]

All your posts can be reduced to one Lebrock: "wait 3-5 years damn ruskies and we will made a revolution in your country too!

hehehehe..."

While I think that it will not happen, RF too flexible and smart for this, experience of Red totalitarian dictatorship also helps to limit the influence of western "friends" here. Better watch for Quebec, who knows maybe it also will express the desire to join Russia one day

That will never happen because Quebec exists in its own parallel universe (according to Quebec Premier Pauline Maroise). It's a magical place where all the fantasies of Quebec separatists can come true.

 

[Sile]

Crimea lacks sources of fresh water, too vulnerable position to be fully independent. Anyway westerners would start manipulations of new government, like blackmailing of Crimean officials if some of them will have money or property on the west. The request will be the same - to get rid from RF fleet and to join their "unions". So idea of Crimean independent state is unrealizable.

Yanukovych refused to sign association with the European Union and as a result got violent revolution. Yankees spent around 5 billions on organizing a coup there. What prevents them to prepare another orange revolution in the lesser piece?

Australia lacks water also, scientists say we can only maintain 26Million people, which is why we have built salination plants. Crimea can exists on its own, they just need to work, charge the Russians a fee for using their port, make money from tourism ( they have a good climate). They have 2 million people which is more than some european nations

 

[LeBrok]

All your posts can be reduced to one Lebrock: "wait 3-5 years damn ruskies and we will made a revolution in your country too!

hehehehe..."

Nobody on this forum called your nation this way, or other derogatory names, although we could. It means nobody here really hates Russians. Is it just your paranoia making this up? Or maybe Putin and his mass media telling you how and what to think, ala Soviets propaganda machine? Go travel a bit and talk to real people in the west, make friends.

While I think that it will not happen, RF too flexible and smart for this, experience of Red totalitarian dictatorship also helps to limit the influence of western "friends" here. Better watch for Quebec, who knows maybe it also will express the desire to join Russia one day

All the West wants is to live in peaceful world, and we think Russia is lost in the old ways, in the old times. Just pull you head out of your...past and smell the new beautiful, free and peaceful world.

 

[LeBrok]

Crimea lacks sources of fresh water, too vulnerable position to be fully independent. Anyway westerners would start manipulations of new government, like blackmailing of Crimean officials if some of them will have money or property on the west.

Check the definition of blackmail dude. It is not a secret, no blackmail then, call it punishment or sanctions instead.

The request will be the same - to get rid from RF fleet and to join their "unions". So idea of Crimean independent state is unrealizable.

At some point in the past collapse of Soviet Union was unrealizable too. And then poof...

Yanukovych refused to sign association with the European Union and as a result got violent revolution. Yankees spent around 5 billions on organizing a coup there.

Really?, where is the source of the news?!!! Did Putin tell you?

Did even one Russian die in Crimea to justify foreign russian intervention?

 

[LeBrok]

As expected Ukrainians are peacefully withdrawing their army from Crimea, while Putin maneuvers and builds his troops on east Ukraine border. Obviously showing off to Russian citizens how much he "protects" them. I just hope he is not crazy enough to attack and annex more of Ukrainian territory.

 

[Ike]

It's interesting that you think so bad about Soviets and their legacy, but you approve their project of Ukraine.
Since Soviets are gone why do you care to stop Ukraine, or at least parts of Ukraine that are willing to, from integrating back to Russia?

 

[LeBrok]

It's interesting that you think so bad about Soviets and their legacy, but you approve their project of Ukraine.
Since Soviets are gone why do you care to stop Ukraine, or at least parts of Ukraine that are willing to, from integrating back to Russia?

I don't think I argued that I'm against anything like that. You should know me by now that I am for independence or autonomy of any part of any country, or independent country joining any country or union, Russia included, as long as it is done by initiative of citizens and democratic and inclusive process. I'm just against the way it was done unilaterally by Russia, with military force and no independent observers.

 

[Ike]

Do you really think that outcome of voting would be any different if there was an independent (let's say Indonesian) observer for every single citizen of Crimea?There are a lot of places where we can doubt votings, but this is one of the rare examples where situation is pretty much black/white. More than that, I think that at this moment Russian option could easily overtake in couple more regions of Ukraine.

The ethical problem will rise if Russians decide to appropriate parts of the regions of Ukraine where situation is shaded gray, but neither other countries have shown any sympathies for the will of the minority when their own security is in question. The West could make it less probable to happen if they would back of their nuclear warheads, and stop pressuring East European countries in NATO.

 

[LeBrok]

Do you really think that outcome of voting would be any different if there was an independent (let's say Indonesian) observer for every single citizen of Crimea?There are a lot of places where we can doubt votings, but this is one of the rare examples where situation is pretty much black/white. More than that, I think that at this moment Russian option could easily overtake in couple more regions of Ukraine.

Now we'll never know, will we. Putin screwed up big. For any separation or reunification the process should be democratic, inclusive and transparent. Otherwise it is a farce and will be questioned for decades, and destroyed relationship of two biggest countries in this region. It is harmful for Russia too, so I'm not sure why you are so complacent with Putin?

The ethical problem will rise if Russians decide to appropriate parts of the regions of Ukraine where situation is shaded gray, but neither other countries have shown any sympathies for the will of the minority when their own security is in question. The West could make it less probable to happen if they would back of their nuclear warheads, and stop pressuring East European countries in NATO.

Lol, you don't see ethical problem with annexation of Crimea?
So far Russian soldiers/vigilantes killed Ukrainians, and I'm yet to hear about one Russian killed by Ukrainians. Your "justification" of military intervention in Crimea is mind blowing.
And all we can hear from you is that you are not pro Russian and god forbid pro Putin, and all ukrainians are nazi.

 

[oriental]

At another website there is a lively discussion on Crimea. People there who are more knowledgeable than me suggest that Putin doesn't want NATO in Ukraine by splitting Ukraine. This way NATO would sneak in on the western part so he will stop now. Eastern and southern Ukraine with mostly Russian speakers would be a political obstacle for any Ukrainian government with roughly half the population against it. Putin has achieved what he wants which is a Russian Crimea. Crimea was given away by Khrushchev without a democratic vote such as a referendum.

 

[LeBrok]

At another website there is a lively discussion on Crimea. People there who are more knowledgeable than me suggest that Putin doesn't want NATO in Ukraine by splitting Ukraine.

Does he have a lesser chance now slpiting whole Ukraine when Crimea is out with majority of ethnic Russians?

This way NATO would sneak in on the western part so he will stop now.

It is not much of sneaking when they are officially invited.

Crimea was given away by Khrushchev without a democratic vote such as a referendum.

Crimea was also acquired by Russia from Tatars without referendum. Besides, nobody would protest much if Crimea had independence referendum first and splinting from Ukraine by democratic process and then voting to join Russia. Putin just made a big farce out of it in his hurry to save his naval base before Ukraine becomes a NATO member. Branding Ukrainians fascists doesn't help him either.

I wonder how long it will take for Russia to join EU and maybe NATO too? When China become 10 times economically and militarily stronger than Russia in 20 years? What if China becomes democratic and joins NATO before Russia?

 

[oriental]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26476314

The website above is the BBC about Crimea's violent past. Lord Tennyson even wrote a poem about it "The Cahrge of the Light Brigade" and a movie with Errol Flynn. The surprising thing was that the brigade was from India. They were serving in India when they were called to Crimea. Duke Wellington of Waterloo fame also served in India.

Here is the National Geographic on Crimea's past in 6 maps.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/03/140305-maps-crimea-history-russia-ukraine/

You make me laugh China is nowhere near the Atlantic Ocean unlike you are imagining a few hundred million years when the continents shift around. Who knows maybe (hu)mankind might not be around then.

 

[Ike]

Now we'll never know, will we. Putin screwed up big. For any separation or reunification the process should be democratic, inclusive and transparent. Otherwise it is a farce and will be questioned for decades, and destroyed relationship of two biggest countries in this region. It is harmful for Russia too, so I'm not sure why you are so complacent with Putin?

Lol, you don't see ethical problem with annexation of Crimea?
So far Russian soldiers/vigilantes killed Ukrainians, and I'm yet to hear about one Russian killed by Ukrainians. Your "justification" of military intervention in Crimea is mind blowing.
And all we can hear from you is that you are not pro Russian and god forbid pro Putin, and all ukrainians are nazi.

You're making up things again LeBrok. I've never said ALL Ukrainians are Nazi.
I clearly said that current government that the West is supporting is Nazi, and my remarks were on the subject that they are usurpers and that they don't represent the will of the majority by far.

 

[Ike]

It is not much of sneaking when they are officially invited.

Officially? To do what? What would be NATO's purpose in Ukraine? Why don't they go Malawi, I bet they would be officially invited there too. No, they headed for Ukraine.

It would be nice if Alaska joined Russia, just for the sake that American people could see what's it like when you have a possibility to drive foreign nuclear warheads 800 km off of Vancouver.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...n-to-return-alaska-to-russia/?intcmp=obinsite

Crimea was also acquired by Russia from Tatars without referendum. Besides, nobody would protest much if Crimea had independence referendum first and splinting from Ukraine by democratic process and then voting to join Russia.

So, why do you protest then? That's exactly what happened?

Putin just made a big farce out of it in his hurry to save his naval base before Ukraine becomes a NATO member.

You know exactly that the naval base was not in stake. Ukraine and Russia had bilateral agreement on that.

Branding Ukrainians fascists doesn't help him eithe/quoter.

you're too much into political correctness. You have a major problem of not wanting to call things what they are. And once again, no one ever said that Ukrainians as a people are fascists. It would be especially stupid from Putin as a Russian, as they are almost the same people.

When China become 10 times economically and militarily stronger than Russia in 20 years? What if China becomes democratic and joins NATO before Russia?

That wouldn't surprise me. Those two totalitarian regimes do not differ much.

 

[mihaitzateo]

You're making up things again LeBrok. I've never said ALL Ukrainians are Nazi.
I clearly said that current government that the West is supporting is Nazi, and my remarks were on the subject that they are usurpers and that they don't represent the will of the majority by far.

You are wrong,current Ukraine government are not Nazis.
In fact,would have been better for average Ukrainian,if the government would have been Nazi government.
This government just took a large loan from IMF.
Being a Romanian,I know what effect the measures that IMF asked had upon Romania economy.
What is current government of Ukraine?
A government of traitors,who have stolen the victory that the Ukrainian people obtain in the revolution.
One of their first acts was to shot the Ukrainian patriot,Oleksandr Muzychko.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26729273
What is not written on BBC but is written on other sites is that this guy uploaded a week or so earlier on youtube a movie in which he was saying current Ukrainian government wants to kill him.
Some new agencies in Russia were saying that this guy said he will "kill Russians and Jews until he will die".
I doubt he said that,I think he said he will fight current Russia regime and current Israel regime,until he will die.
Since I did not saw him killing any Russian civilian or Jewish civilian.
So sorry LeBrok you are either not informed or clueless about things here.
What is that "Euroatlantism" are you joking?
Go read a little what Ron Paul is saying,and after,come speak.
I will tell you what "Euroatlantism" is : a class of crooks,similar to the crooks that mr Putin is having,who are living on the backs of people from EU and US.
And which are shamelessly supporting the abuses that Israel is doing against the civilians in Palestine,who imposed a not justified embargo on Iran (which was now lifted,since it was clear Iran does not want to build nuclear weapons) and so on.
In the name of "Euroatlantism" they want to install a neo-bolshevism,to take the wealth of people who earn it in a fair way and to give it to their protegees ,to put taxes over taxes on the average people and so on.
I am not supporting NATO,I am not supporting Putin either.
Ukrainian people should go on the streets and throw down the current government also,which want to sell them to IMF.
They should peacefully protest this time,current government will not have courage to use violence against them.
I am very sure that Germany will help Ukraine,Ukraine do not need to take a loan from IMF.

 

[ElHorsto]

I am very sure that Germany will help Ukraine,Ukraine do not need to take a loan from IMF.

Germany invited IMF for taking action in Greece, so I doubt this would be any different with Ukraine.

 

[LeBrok]

You're making up things again LeBrok. I've never said ALL Ukrainians are Nazi.

Right, that's why you posted 20 pictures with only depicting Nazi demonstrating in Kiev.

and my remarks were on the subject that they are usurpers and that they don't represent the will of the majority by far.

You might be right on this one.