Sicilians: Which groups overlap? (Multiple choice version)

[adamo]

Sorry that was a wrong comment

 

[adamo]

Only in Macerata is a high like this of P312* re-experienced, and nowhere else in Tuscany (10% in Macerata).

 

[adamo]

R-S28 ends up making up half the R1b virtually everywhere across mainland Italy and on ghee islands as well.

 

[Nobody1]

The following excerpts from the Chiarelli book may prove helpful in understanding why there isn's as much internal structure in Sicily as one might expect:

"The population that lived outside direct Muslim authority was semi-independent, living under some Byzantine protection probably until 290/902, when the whole island seems to have placed under Palermo's control...This territory was basically restricted to the region of Val Demone/San Marco, especially in the mountainous areas of Etna and the Peloritani chain of mountains. These independent area remained small and few in number, but by the Kalbid period they appear to be nonesixtent, since the whole island came under Palermo's control."

In the middle of the 4th/10th century, the Fatimids took control of the island. Whereas the Aghlabids kept many concquereed cities paying tribute, the Fatimids appear to have placed all newly conquered Byzantine territory under their direct control...Along with their policy of subjugating the whole island, the Fatimids pursued a policy of expanding Muslim colonization by relocating people from one region to another. Thus all the newly subjugated towns and cities in the predominant Christian areas of the northeast, especially the Val Demone/San Marco, had a Muslim population settled with them. The indigenous inhabitants would sometimes flee, leaving the jund free to acquire the abandoned lands, such as in the case of Taormina in 351/962, when many of the populace were reduced to slavery...The government then relocated Muslims from the other parts of the island and settled them in Taormina. (pages 162-163)

"In the interior of the island there were many settlements made up of what the Sicilian scholar Carmelo Trasselli cals eagle nest communities. These were composed of castles and groups of homes barely accessible by only one road or by donkey path between two rocky mountains separated by steep valleys. These hilltop communities were reoccupied during the Arab period after their their apparent abandonment during late Roman times. It is possible that these sites were settled by Berbers from the regions of North Africa where such hilltop settlements were common and preferred. It appears that the interior was composed of less numerous communities than today... (page 161)

Excellent post from an excellent book;
To this i add a passage from Ibn-Hawqal;

Ibn-Hawqal - Ṣūrat al-Arḍ (973AD)
Their land is one of the boundaries with the Christians with a part of it that faces the enemy and where jihād is constantly waged against them and there has been a call to arms since the conquest of Sicily

The 'conquest of Sicily' is dated as complete in 902AD (Fall of Taormina) yet the remaining Christian areas were under attack 'jihād is constantly waged against them' well into 973AD;
And since Islamic Sicily was followed by Normannic Sicily;
I add also this;

Dr. Alex Metcalfe - Lancaster University
http://www.academia.edu/206503/The_Muslims_of_Sicily_under_Christian_Rule

and a passage from Hugo Falcundus
Lombard settlers were encouraged by Roger and Tancred to take Muslim land and towns in the East during the revolt of 1160-61

Hugo Falcandus - LIBER DE REGNO SICILIE XXI (1154-1169)
The Lombards made unprovoked attacks on nearby places, and massacred both those who lived alongside the Christians in various towns as well as those who owned their own estates, forming distinct communities. They made no distinction of sex or age. The number of those of that community who died is not easy to reckon, and the few who experienced a better fate, fled to less dangerous Muslim towns in the southern part of Sicily.

and a passage of Ibn-Jubayr

Ibn-Jubayr - Rihla (1184)
the Christian women’s dress in this city (Palermo) is the dress of Muslims; they are eloquent speakers of Arabic (faṣīḥāt al-alsan) and cover themselves with veils. They go out at this aforesaid festival (Christmas) clothed in golden silk, covered in shining wraps, colourful veils and with light gilded sandals. They appear at their churches bearing all the finery of Muslim women in their attire, henna and perfume.

 

[Angela]

The Romano et al study mentioned up thread dates from 2003 and used 9 autosomal STR's. For mtDNA analysis it was unable to type below the level of "H", "J" etc., doubtless because it was using Torroni et al. (1996,1998) and references therein. There is no yDNA analysis. Oh, and the most recent computer program used is thirteen years old, an aeon in software and population genetics terms.

With that said, the following is found in the study:

"Fig. 3a shows two clear clusters: Castellammare, Sciacca and Butera which group together 86% of the times and the remaining samples whose structure is, however, less defined. Ragusa and Piazza Armerina are associated 70% of the times, but the evolutionary model suggested by the tree is probably not valid for Troina and Caccamo, which join the tree with bootstrap values of less than 50%. The addition of the mtDNA haplogroup frequencies does not help to resolve the matter: Troina joins Castellammare and Sciacca 62% of times, but Caccamo joins Troina, Castellammare and Sciacca 48% of times, and other combinations of samples in lower percentages.

The maximum likelihood tree obtained by adding three samples from North-Africa (Algeria and Egypt) and the Middle East (Turkey) provides further information: 54% of times Castellammare, Butera and Sciacca are associated with the Middle East sample, while the remaining samples (Troina, Caccamo, Piazza Armerina and Ragusa) are associated with the two samples from North-Africa."

It should be kept in mind that based on only 9 autosomal markers, DNA-Tribes told some northern Europeans that they were North Africans. Although, to be fair, even on a very limited number of markers they placed me precisely in northwestern Tuscany, which represents half of my ancestry. As a recent paper has indicated, however, parts of central and northern Italy do indeed show some significant sub-structure.

The paper does caution, however:
"Establishing a one-to-one correspondence between the genetic (gene and genotypic) heterogeneity of Sicily observed today and a presumed geneticcomposition of its pre-Roman settlers is a very dangerous exercise until one has typed ancient DNA from pre-Roman Sicilian fossils in the relevant archaeological areas...The peopling of Sicily, as very briefly described above, should have caused genetic differentiation on the west-east axis of the island: old classical genetic markers , surnames (Guglielmino et al. 1991) Guglielmino et al.1991, and dialect isoglosses (Ruffino 1997) agree by showing this differentiation. The genetic analysis by Rickards et al. (1998) failed to find this geographical pattern, but our results in Fig. 2 show that at least the fraction of genetic variability summarized by the most important principal component of our data (which is 26%) is correlated with longitude much more than with latitude.

They conclude with the following statement: "A more reliable association of these diachronic genetic strata to different historical populations (e.g. Sicani, Elymi, Siculi), if possible, must be postponed to the analysis of more samples and hopefully more informative uniparental DNA markers such as the recently available DHPLC-SNP polymorphisms of the Y chromosome."

Taken as a whole, and most especially because of the dated methods used, I personally don't find this old study dispositive.

That's not to say, of course, that there isn't any population structure within Sicily, especially along an east/west axis. It's just that this study doesn't prove it, in my opinion. Hopefully, in the future, something like it will be attempted again using current programs.

 

[oreo_cookie]

I'm sorry but something HAS to explain the 30% R1b on Sicily. I mean it's not like I1 across Italy here 3-5%; it's 30% of the islands males! it would be nice to have at in-depth R1b clade analysis.

There is no Iberian AUTOSOMAL impact on the Sicilian genome. Armenians are 30% R1b too, and look where they cluster!

Genetically, Iberians and Sicilians never appear next to one another on a PCA plot because the VAST majority of their genes are different.

 

[adamo]

I never claimed that they did. I never claimed it was Iberian of origin. Armenians have 30% R1b but it's all R-L23; keep Armenians out of this discussion.

 

[adamo]

You forced that onto me XD I said they may have been Iberians or Ligurians; but they were certainly a Celtic group.

 

[adamo]

And they were certainly SICANI you sick-cane.

 

[oreo_cookie]

Until their autosomal impact can be quantified, then it's pretty meaningless to bring it up.

Genetically, we know Sicilians are close to southern Italians, Greeks, and Jews. Iberians are close to northern Italians and French. So yes, the Sicanians may have been Iberian or Celtic, but since no Sicilians cluster that way on a PCA plot, then we can conclude their autosomal impact was either negligible, or if it was significant then they were not truly Celtic or Iberian after all.

How is that hard to understand? If Sicilians were coming up autosomally similar to Iberians and Welsh, Irish, Bretons (Celtic groups) I'd certainly admit it, but they don't. Haplogroups tell almost nothing about autosomal DNA.

R1b-M269 is the subclade found in Iberia, Ireland, France, Britain, Belgium etc. Sicilians do not cluster next to any of these groups on an autosomal level. Point blank.

 

[adamo]

Sicilians, southern Italians and Greeks May cluster closer together in certain respects, but I don't see a direct link between any Italians and Jews; other than the team Juventus and the ancient site of Juventum; which both probably have a Latin origin from "young" (French jeune, italian giovene I believe Spanish is Jovenes). Italians and Jews, southern ones in particular both have 20-30% J2 frequencies usually. But J2 is also heaviest in turkey, Lebanon, Armenia,Georgia,Azerbaijan,Iran,Iraq,Palestine; regions of the Middle East of which some identify as arabics and are heavily anti-Jewish, J2 is not a Jewish genetic marker, it's simply shared between all ancient mesopotamians and certain modern coastal Mediterranean people and all those people I mentioned above got some of it including Arabs, Turks, armenoid-Caucasians and even Jews.

 

[adamo]

I see no precise, direct link between Italians and Jews other than maybe a slightly more similar genetic pattern than most European nations have. According to the G2a, E-V13 and J2a lineages; I would look towards Crete, turkey and the Balkans (Greece,Albania) for the origin of Italy's Neolithic lineages. Even the Caucasus (Georgia) in G2a's case. When looking for the origin of Italy's west-European blood, according to the high R1b frequency and it's subclade distribution I would look towards the northwest; Switzerland and France.

 

[oreo_cookie]

I see no precise, direct link between Italians and Jews other than maybe a slightly more similar genetic pattern than most European nations have. According to the G2a, E-V13 and J2a lineages; I would look towards Crete, turkey and the Balkans (Greece,Albania) for the origin of Italy's Neolithic lineages. Even the Caucasus (Georgia) in G2a's case. When looking for the origin of Italy's west-European blood, according to the high R1b frequency and it's subclade distribution I would look towards the northwest; Switzerland and France.

I agree but it is important to note that if most of the Neolithic lineages came from Greece (which I do not agree with) to southern Italy, why do southern Italians have so much less Northern European autosomal DNA than mainland Greeks?

I assume most of the Neolithic in Sicily came right from Anatolia or the Levant. It would make sense since Sicilian y-dna is more shared with Greek islands and Cyprus, than with mainland Greece, if you look at the subclades. At least that is what others have said who know more about it than me on another board.

Autosomally, Greek islanders are closer to southern Italians, than to mainland Greeks for that reason; mainland Greece has much more impact from the north (Slavic, Balkan etc).

 

[adamo]

I agree with that seems southern Italians and Cretans cluster more with anatolians than mainland Greeks.

 

[adamo]

Why do northern Italians have so much MORE Northern European component than Greeks; do not underestimate Greek presence of magna Grecia.

 

[adamo]

Greeks brought much E-V13 and some J2 as well (all the small amount of J2b). Other J2 is attributed to Etruscans or ancient Oenotrians who came from Greece but were anatolians anyways or the iapygians of Crete bringing J-M410; it depends on the region and it's historical conquerors. J2 tends to fit a more Greek profile on Calabria but a more Anatolia profile in Apulia.

 

[adamo]

So we know, yes, at least a small amount if it came from turkey, some came from Crete and thus from turkey before that, some came with the Greeks etc. j2 Italy has higher than normal J-M67, J-M12 and J-M92 values including a high only surpassed on Crete of J2a-M410 lineages.

 

[adamo]

Indicating a minor Caucasus substratum (Georgia-Armenian) and minor grecoid-Balkanic influence in north-central Italy as 10% both M67 and M102. J2a like on Crete and turkey can be found in northern Apulia in many Foggia samples. J-M92 oddly peaks in southern italians and western Turks skipping Greece indicating a turkey to southern Italy movement as well. All that is J2a, J-M67 and J-M92 certainly arrived via turkey although some M67 may have arrived as a very small Greek substratum but J2b was certainly brought over from the Balkans by Greeks.

 

[oreo_cookie]

I agree with that seems southern Italians and Cretans cluster more with anatolians than mainland Greeks.

And you then have to wonder why that is. Either one of two things must be true:

1) Mainland Greeks were always more "Northern" clustering and less Neolithic than southern Italians and Cretans, which means that mainland Greek impact on both places was small to begin with,

or

2) Mainland Greeks have this admixture now from Slavic elements, which means they are not representative of the ancient Greeks.

My issue is assuming ALL Of the West Asian influence in Italy is Greek, when continental Greeks have less of said influence on an autosomal level than southern Italians do. It would be illogical to assume it all came from Greeks. Why don't southern Italians have the same level of Eastern European admixture as Greece? I think we know the answer.

 

[adamo]

I agree with 2) and 1) but even some Greeks had J2 and they DID heavily colonize Calabria and coastal Marche and Veneto and Abruzzo as well were J2 seems frequent; these are all areas that had Greek colonization as well. As for R1a I suggest it probably was not yet heavily present in Greeks....why is there little I2a in Italy? Maybe the thracians and northern Greeks where I2a is most frequent didn't decide to colonize Italy; or maybe R1a and I2a in general are at such a rarity in Greece as well that barely any was transmitted to Italy. Who colonized Italy in terms of classical era Greeks? Achaeans, Ionians, Dorians; it would be important to analyze what these particular tribes genetic composition would have been