He said that Thracian dyza (fortress) evolved in Slavic zyd (zid = wall), zyda (zida, verb. zidati in Serbian = to build wall).
This is known.
Now I get it!
Thanks.
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He said that Thracian dyza (fortress) evolved in Slavic zyd (zid = wall), zyda (zida, verb. zidati in Serbian = to build wall).
This is known.
Some legend exist that Gordium, got the name from Gordias Phyrgian king,they were prior in the Balkans called according to Herodot Bryges = Breg (hill, slope, mountain) in Slavic,Gordium,Gordias can be explained like Gord=Proud,Gordium=Grad(city) etc Slavic,but they were perhaps some mix of couple languages,Balto-Slavic was elsewhere trough Thracian and various other languages it is bias to say otherwise,which traveling Slavs we are talking about here,because some group of people was labeled as Slavs by outsiders in the 6th century and many others adopt the same name doesn't explain anything if we talk about languages here.Phrygian and Slavic are both Indo-European, and Satem languages? Beyond that, I don't see them as particularly close, to be honest.
The name "Gordion" is obviously unrelated. The reason is simple, because the chronology would make it impossible. As I discussed earlier, we have a good idea when the sound shift *a > *o occured in Proto-Slavic. As I said, Latin loanwords and placenames are subject to it, this means that the sound shift occured some time during the Migration Period. Before that, it would have been *gard in Proto-Slavic, which is closer to the Germanic form (because, unsurprisingly, it was borrowed from there ). The city of Gordion existed over 1000 years earlier. So unless you posit that the ancient Gordion was named by time-travelling Slavs from the middle ages, this is pretty impossible.
Yetos
Older than Mycenean Greek ? I believe You that Thracian is an old language, but when Thracian text is attested?
brigade (n.)
"subdivision of an army," 1630s, from French brigade "body of soldiers" (14c.), from Italian brigata "troop, crowd, gang," from brigare "brawl, fight," from briga "strife, quarrel," perhaps of Celtic (compare Gaelic brigh, Welsh bri "power") or Germanic origin.
I just gave proposal it has similar explanation Bryges in Germanic Berg (Mountain), Serbian breg (hill, slope, mountain)Milan
The word Bryg could also be explained by the word Brigade. A bunch of people, soldiers.
But the other name of Phrygians the Mushki could be related to the Proto-Slavic *mǫžь (also *mǫžьščina) which means Man. The -ki there could be a suffix.
Adding Yetos examples
Thracian Muca = tribe/clan bonded by blood males
Scottish Mac = tribe clan
Iranian muca = son
A Latin word mas also? from there derives macho.?
We get an amazing picture
Taranis
I just want to learn. I am ready to hear every opinion.
If You say that the sound shift *a > *o occured in Proto-Slavic. Then why the same thing happened in the Phrygian?
You explained the Slavic ethnogenesis,Bravo :cool-v: even Jirecek didn't knew this.You have to understand the chronology of sound shifts. In Proto-Balto-Slavic PIE *o merged to *a. Later on, Proto-Slavic did the reverse by shifting Proto-Balto-Slavic *a to *o. In contrast, the *a in modern Slavic derives from earlier Balto-Slavic long *ā. And as I said, the *a > *o sound shift in Balto-Slavic happened during the Migration Period. Latin loanwords, as I mentioned, are subject to the latter sound change. "asellus" (donkey) > "osel", "acetum" (vinegar) > "otset". The same applies to /a/ found in Germanic loanwords (in contrast, the Germanic *ō was generally rendered as *ū into Proto-Slavic ("u" in modern Slavic), whence *bōk- 'beech' yielded Slavic *buk). I might add that, to my knowledge, there's no evidence really old language contact between speakers of Proto-Slavic and Greek, which - for example - very much exists for Albanian with Greek (e.g. "mēlo" or "μηλο" > "mollë"). Now Thrace was a region that was thoroughly hellenized already from fairly early, if Proto-Slavic speakers were really present there, we should see an ancient stratum of Greek loanwords.
The same definitely did not happen in Phrygian or Thracian, as these languages preserved Proto-Indo-European /a/ and /o/ as distinct vowels. This is why neither Phrygian nor Thracian, despite being Satem languages, were supposedly close related with Balto-Slavic.
What I would like to add is that there can be no doubt is that during the classical Antiquity, the speakers of Proto-Slavic would have to be located outside of the Roman Empire. If there was, we should see place names, personal names, etc. from the Roman period in Roman sources. We don't, and Curta for one should have been aware of this, which is why his proposal is so absurd, and why its more sensible to place the Proto-Slavic homeland outside of the Roman Empire (which takes us back to Chernoles or Milograd as the most likely choices).
So far you didn't manage to convince even one person here with your romantic idea. Ridiculing is not going to help you either.You explained the Slavic ethnogenesis,Bravo :cool-v: even Jirecek didn't knew this.
To convince in which idea,i had no such intentions neither i riducule anyone i asked question,after all better to have any idea then talking the same for the last 2 centuries although that was never the solution. etrified: don't know why someone should be upset about it.So far you didn't manage to convince even one person here with your romantic idea. Ridiculing is not going to help you either.
Zdzisław Skork Polish archeologist writes:
At the time of the Roman Empire, that is, until the mid 5th century, nobody had heard of them. When the Western Empire suddenly collapsed under the siege of German barbarians, they emerged from the dark abyss of Balkan provinces.The Byzantines describe them as people with red hair, but at times also black, as well as a color very similar to the ripe crops of June. A rather tall, but also skinny people, with an audacious gaze.These people wanted to survive in a situation of total threat, and they found a way for this. Survivors typical of a time when nothing was certain and everything was potentially a threat to life,Florin archeologist South-East Europe in research on ancient Slavs, states they are a product of Byzantine authors,and the product of the fortification of Danube limes and the inflation within the empire, who blended all tribes attacking their provinces into one. According to Florin, it was impossible for the Byzantines to study these societies in more detail, and they invented one word Sclavenes,whoever this Sklabenoi people might be,attacking the empire from the lower Danube region and Pannonia,should be left aside especialy to South-East European historians,archeologis,to find out who were they and why they appeared,without someone claiming ancestry from afar areas if he lack for one in his own region and at same time saying they came from there,without solid proves.
Actualy i never said they was located in the Balkans and you constantly say this,between Danube basin,Roman empire and Balkan, i think those geographic terms aren't same,the term Slav today indeed mean speaker of Slavic,but in Roman times the term Sklabenoi didn't mean that,we can even make assumption that even certain clan used that name in self designation,which was never used later by any Slavs in my knowledge,after all if we question everything we don't really know was the Sklabenoi speaking Slavic or not,but they were in the Danube basin not in Chernoles or whatever cultures,first do you think that Roman empire predate the Slavic language?how do you know where Proto-Slavic emerge?this is your assumptions,there are various others that say that Slavic start from the Danube,Russian primary chronicle say that Severians you mentioned moved there from the Danube basin,source written in the 12th century. River name Maros "Slavic-Morava"(in Romania Mureú, in Herodotus Máris 484 BCE , from PIE *mori ‘sea’, but with aSlavic suffix."Bustricius" Pannonia Etymology:related to an appellative *bustra 'wild stream' reconstructed from the form *bhus-ro- of the IE root *b(h)eu- 'to swell, puff'. Compare with the Slavic appellative bystrica 'fast river' which is as well very common Slavic name for rivers,river and city name in Latin Margus today known as Morava in Serbia,battle of Margus "crisis in the third century"You know, the problem I do have with that view is basically a logical fallacy: by pointing out the term "Sklavenoi" was invented by the Byzantines, you're ignoring the actual problem. Proto-Slavic peoples, that is, people who spoke the Proto-Slavic language existed, and they were not located on the Balkans. In the linguistic sense, the term "Slav" is quite obviously defined: anybody who speaks a Slavic language is a Slav. The speakers of the reconstructed Proto-Slavic language are Proto-Slavs, and wether they called themselves "Slavs" or not is completely irrelevant from the linguistic perspective.
The problem is, again, because we actually have a fairly good deal of data from the Roman period on the Balkans, we can't pretend that the Proto-Slavic speakers somehow, miraculously, were hiding in "blind sight" during the centuries of Roman occupation. As I said, we have, thanks to internal reconstruction, a very good idea about the early Proto-Slavic tongue (and just as a reminder, it has preciously little to do with the language of the Thracians).
I also find the statement "they (the Slavs) emerged from the dark abyss of Balkan provinces" both inaccurate and stagy. Whould you say that the West Slavic peoples like the Obodrites, or East Slavic peoples like the Severians moved out from the Balkans? Is there any evidence for such a supposition (I don't think there is)?
As I said before, the origin of the Slavic-speaking peoples must be sought outside of the Roman Empire, and its not as if the archaeological data isn't there (i.e. both the Milograd and Chernoles cultures lend themselves as candidates), and it is actually compatible with the linguistic data.
You have to understand the chronology of sound shifts. In Proto-Balto-Slavic PIE *o merged to *a. Later on, Proto-Slavic did the reverse by shifting Proto-Balto-Slavic *a to *o. In contrast, the *a in modern Slavic derives from earlier Balto-Slavic long *ā. And as I said, the *a > *o sound shift in Balto-Slavic happened during the Migration Period. Latin loanwords, as I mentioned, are subject to the latter sound change. "asellus" (donkey) > "osel", "acetum" (vinegar) > "otset". The same applies to /a/ found in Germanic loanwords (in contrast, the Germanic *ō was generally rendered as *ū into Proto-Slavic ("u" in modern Slavic), whence *bōk- 'beech' yielded Slavic *buk). I might add that, to my knowledge, there's no evidence really old language contact between speakers of Proto-Slavic and Greek, which - for example - very much exists for Albanian with Greek (e.g. "mēlo" or "μηλο" > "mollë"). Now Thrace was a region that was thoroughly hellenized already from fairly early, if Proto-Slavic speakers were really present there, we should see an ancient stratum of Greek loanwords.
The same definitely did not happen in Phrygian or Thracian, as these languages preserved Proto-Indo-European /a/ and /o/ as distinct vowels. This is why neither Phrygian nor Thracian, despite being Satem languages, were supposedly close related with Balto-Slavic.
What I would like to add is that there can be no doubt is that during the classical Antiquity, the speakers of Proto-Slavic would have to be located outside of the Roman Empire. If there was, we should see place names, personal names, etc. from the Roman period in Roman sources. We don't, and Curta for one should have been aware of this, which is why his proposal is so absurd, and why its more sensible to place the Proto-Slavic homeland outside of the Roman Empire (which takes us back to Chernoles or Milograd as the most likely choices).
You know, the problem I do have with that view is basically a logical fallacy: by pointing out the term "Sklavenoi" was invented by the Byzantines, you're ignoring the actual problem. Proto-Slavic peoples, that is, people who spoke the Proto-Slavic language existed, and they were not located on the Balkans. In the linguistic sense, the term "Slav" is quite obviously defined: anybody who speaks a Slavic language is a Slav. The speakers of the reconstructed Proto-Slavic language are Proto-Slavs, and wether they called themselves "Slavs" or not is completely irrelevant from the linguistic perspective.
The problem is, again, because we actually have a fairly good deal of data from the Roman period on the Balkans, we can't pretend that the Proto-Slavic speakers somehow, miraculously, were hiding in "blind sight" during the centuries of Roman occupation. As I said, we have, thanks to internal reconstruction, a very good idea about the early Proto-Slavic tongue (and just as a reminder, it has preciously little to do with the language of the Thracians).
I also find the statement "they (the Slavs) emerged from the dark abyss of Balkan provinces" both inaccurate and stagy. Whould you say that the West Slavic peoples like the Obodrites, or East Slavic peoples like the Severians moved out from the Balkans? Is there any evidence for such a supposition (I don't think there is)?
As I said before, the origin of the Slavic-speaking peoples must be sought outside of the Roman Empire, and its not as if the archaeological data isn't there (i.e. both the Milograd and Chernoles cultures lend themselves as candidates), and it is actually compatible with the linguistic data.
Actualy i never said they was located in the Balkans and you constantly say this,
between Danube basin,Roman empire and Balkan, i think those geographic terms aren't same,
the term Slav today indeed mean speaker of Slavic,but in Roman times the term Sklabenoi didn't mean that,we can even make assumption that even certain clan used that name in self designation,which was never used later by any Slavs in my knowledge,
after all if we question everything we don't really know was the Sklabenoi speaking Slavic or not,but they were in the Danube basin not in Chernoles or whatever cultures,first do you think that Roman empire predate the Slavic language?
how do you know where Proto-Slavic emerge?this is your assumptions,there are various others that say that Slavic start from the Danube,Russian primary chronicle say that Severians you mentioned moved there from the Danube basin,source written in the 12th century.
River name Maros "Slavic-Morava"(in Romania Mureú, in Herodotus Máris 484 BCE , from PIE *mori ‘sea’, but with aSlavic suffix."Bustricius" Pannonia Etymology:related to an appellative *bustra 'wild stream' reconstructed from the form *bhus-ro- of the IE root *b(h)eu- 'to swell, puff'. Compare with the Slavic appellative bystrica 'fast river' which is as well very common Slavic name for rivers,river and city name in Latin Margus today known as Morava in Serbia,battle of Margus "crisis in the third century"
river name Morava is spread elsewhere in Slavic world,after all why in Poland the river names of Drava and Sava appear,we know this from Greek and Roman sources as Savus and Dravus,today known as Sava and Drava in South East Europe (Balkan) long ago atributed Illyrian origin of the rivers,also Sava is common Slavic name but 'become" later,does the 'Slavs" brought this names in B.C era in the Balkans or maybe "Illyrians" went opposite there? there is many other examples.
Just to mention that Trubachev date the Slavic migration from the Danube which is written in the Russian chronicles when the Celts settled in the Danube basin,they called them Vlachs(Volcae)in their sources from German foreigners.
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