Slavic homeland and ethnogenesis

[Taranis]

Taranis,If we are to dismiss Thracian-Balto-Slavic connection which seem to confuse only,we should dismiss i think that Slavic and Baltic ever formed single language but only contacts trough history,

Full stop, no. There's a very large number of common Baltic and Slavic items, its very clear that the Baltic languages and Proto-Slavic are descended from a common Proto-Balto-Slavic language, which was spoken some time back in the late Bronze / early Iron Age (there's a share of common Baltic/Slavic metallurgical items, notably the words for "iron" and "tin"/"lead").

 

[arvistro]

Full stop, no. There's a very large number of common Baltic and Slavic items, its very clear that the Baltic languages and Proto-Slavic are descended from a common Proto-Balto-Slavic language, which was spoken some time back in the late Bronze / early Iron Age (there's a share of common Baltic/Slavic metallurgical items, notably the words for "iron" and "tin"/"lead").

Iron, dzelzs in Latvian
From Proto-Balto-Slavic *geleź-, gelēź-, *gelēźa-, from Proto-Indo-European *gʰelgʰ- (“iron”) (which was apparently borrowed from Asia Minor).

That is from wiktionary on 'dzelzs'. From PIE??? There should not be PIE form for that word if there was no iron used back then, right?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dzelzs

edit:
Except if that was from some word that originally meant metals in general. Ancient Greek χαλκός (khalkós, “copper, bronze”).

 

[Милан М.]

Well, for the record, I for one did not invoke Mario Alinei and/or Thracian-as-Balto-Slavic.



Here I agree. The two are different, but the Lower Danube (my definition would be: Voivodina and anything downstream to the mouth of the Danube) is geographically also part of the Balkans peninsula. However, it doesn't change anything about my points: the Pannonian basin and the Danube region is just as unsuitable for the Slavic homeland as the Balkans proper.



Is it really of any significance how the early Slavs labeled themselves, as long as they spoke the (Proto-)language? After all, the language must have originated somewhere and didn't come from thin air.



Yes, the fragmentation of Proto-Slavic language into daughter branches occured after the demise of the Western Roman Empire.



The Proto-Slavic homeland was most likely located around Belarus / northern Ukraine and/or southeastern Poland, not at the Danube. How do we know this? Comparative method in linguistics, and internal reconstruction. I mentioned before that the Slavic word for "beech" is borrowed from Germanic, while the word for "birch" in Slavic is a native word inherited from earlier Proto-Balto-Slavic (though a cognate with the Germanic one - compare Lithuanian "beržas" as well as Russian "bereza" or "береза" with English "birch" and German "Birke"). Its obvious that the Proto-Slavic homeland must have been located in an area with birches but no beeches (which, again, is compatible with the Milograd culture).

Also, to play Devil's advocate, in his geography, Ptolemy (mid 2nd century AD) mentions an ethnic group in ("European") Sarmatia, called the Sauaroi (Σαυαροι). While I concede the name is only somewhat similar, its worthwhile to note that they're at the correct place. and they're more or less at the correct place.



I don't see anything diagnostically Slavic about the river name "Drava". As far as I know, it is "Old European" in origin, and has parallels elsewhere (the Treve in northern Germany is the Germanic cognate, for example).



Nonsense. The term "Vlach"/Wallach/Welsh was originally the designation of the Germanic peoples for the Celtic peoples (it is indeed derived from the tribal name "Volcae"), but was later re-applied to Romance speakers.

Maybe you don't see anything Slavic in Morava,Bustricius etc either but that doesn't matter after all not my problem,you haven't invoked about Thracian again will be the closest language to Balto-Slavic we can't change that.Vlach is borowing from German in Slavic for foreigner,we used this for the Romance speaker indeed,but earlier as you said was for Celtic people,i don't think Trubachev had a lot of non senses to say but OK,you again mention some 2th century "Stavanoi" or what Herodot Schynthian farmers and i give you place names from 500 B.C,well you are very sure in the very things you say without even saying that it is "hypothesis" or probably.

 

[Милан М.]

Full stop, no. There's a very large number of common Baltic and Slavic items, its very clear that the Baltic languages and Proto-Slavic are descended from a common Proto-Balto-Slavic language, which was spoken some time back in the late Bronze / early Iron Age (there's a share of common Baltic/Slavic metallurgical items, notably the words for "iron" and "tin"/"lead").

Proto-Slavic ruda ("metal", "ore") I think it's closer counterpart is Sumerian "urudu"

 

[Милан М.]

Why everyone like to mention Stavanoi,Schythian farmers but none talk about Wends,Veneti whatever they was,after all historian Jordanes link the Sklabenoi with Veneti,why we trust things only that suit us and we link the Goths with the Thracian Getae,that have nothing in common,history... etrified:

 

[Sile]

Why everyone like to mention Stavanoi,Schythian farmers but none talk about Wends,Veneti whatever they was,after all historian Jordanes link the Sklabenoi with Veneti,why we trust things only that suit us and we link the Goths with the Thracian Getae,that have nothing in common,history... etrified:

They do not mention Wends , because Wends was a term used for people between the Oder and Vistula river. The word means foreigner. the VELETI people from where the Vistula river begins where the first people to be called Wends because they migrated into modern mecklenburg, centuries later we have the WENDISH WARS ( saxons against veleti )
There was no wends term to the East of the Vistula river.
There was no wends term to the south of the Danube river.
There was no wends term used anywhere near the black sea.

The term Wend was first applied around 600AD after the VELETI began their migration. It was never mentioned before this date

 

[Yetos]

Why everyone like to mention Stavanoi,Schythian farmers but none talk about Wends,Veneti whatever they was,after all historian Jordanes link the Sklabenoi with Veneti,why we trust things only that suit us and we link the Goths with the Thracian Getae,that have nothing in common,history... etrified:

Wends are also combined with Wandals,
Vandalic language is unknown,

probably a balto-germanic language,

 

[Милан М.]

They do not mention Wends , because Wends was a term used for people between the Oder and Vistula river. The word means foreigner. the VELETI people from where the Vistula river begins where the first people to be called Wends because they migrated into modern mecklenburg, centuries later we have the WENDISH WARS ( saxons against veleti )
There was no wends term to the East of the Vistula river.
There was no wends term to the south of the Danube river.
There was no wends term used anywhere near the black sea.

The term Wend was first applied around 600AD after the VELETI began their migration. It was never mentioned before this date

I agree with you,will leave that to West Slavs.I said this because someone tried to link the Sklabenoi with some Stavanoi,but the authors of the names Sklabenoi-Procopious and Jordanes never said this,one of them trace the origin of Sklabenoi and Antes with the Veneti,the other derrived their name from Sporoi,because they "ihabited" their land in "Sporadic" fashion,while other author from the same period Tehophylact Simocatta call the Sklabenoi-Getae,i have read most of those books from that period,conclusion:you can't trust Roman author the way suit you,especialy not today ethnicities,those things simple wasn't same then and now.

 

[Taranis]

Proto-Slavic ruda ("metal", "ore") I think it's closer counterpart is Sumerian "urudu"

That's actually a common Balto-Slavic term for "ore": you also have Lithuanian and Latvian "rūda", it was also borrowed into adjacent Uralic languages (Finnish "rauta"), but its ultimately from the Proto-Indo-European root for the word "red" (including English "red", German "rot", Welsh "rhudd", Latin "rufus" and Greek "erythros" as cognates).

Please, leave the Sumerians in Mesopotamia.

 

[arvistro]

Latvian raud-a is a fish that has reddish color.
Rud-s/-a is color of fox. A specific red, also a red-hair is rud-mat-is/-e.
Rudens is autumn (when the leaves are specific red color), Rūda is ore.

 

[Милан М.]

That's actually a common Balto-Slavic term for "ore": you also have Lithuanian and Latvian "rūda", it was also borrowed into adjacent Uralic languages (Finnish "rauta"), but its ultimately from the Proto-Indo-European root for the word "red" (including English "red", German "rot", Welsh "rhudd", Latin "rufus" and Greek "erythros" as cognates).

Please, leave the Sumerians in Mesopotamia.

Well i said this because it is cognate,maybe i am wrong,could be coincidence.

 

[Милан М.]

How Paganism influenced Christianity.First picture Perun defeating Veles depicting in Croatia-Slavic Paganism,Second Thracian Horseman-Thracian Paganism.Third of course Saint George killing the Dragon which is popular among Slavs,especialy Eastern Orthodox.
This old Serbian Dodola/Dodole (rainmaking) song illustrates the Elijah-Perun link:


Da zarosi sitna rosa,
oj dudula mili Bože!
Oj lija daj Bože daj!
Oj Ilija moj Perune!
Daj Bože daj, daj Ilija daj!
Let fine dew drizzle,
oh dudula dear God!
Oh Elijah give us, God, give!
Oh Elijah, my Perun/Thunder!
Give us, God, give, give, Elijah, give! Dudula is believed to be Perun wife.

Thracian horseman was also popular among Romans.

 

[Yetos]

That's actually a common Balto-Slavic term for "ore": you also have Lithuanian and Latvian "rūda", it was also borrowed into adjacent Uralic languages (Finnish "rauta"), but its ultimately from the Proto-Indo-European root for the word "red" (including English "red", German "rot", Welsh "rhudd", Latin "rufus" and Greek "erythros" as cognates).

Please, leave the Sumerians in Mesopotamia.

I think we must leave Uralic outside of IE,
Summerian seem to exist in all IE languages even Turkic but Uralic don't

now Summerian to IE and Turkic or vice versa (αντιθετος διαδρομη) Ι can not certify,
but surely we can not close our eyes in order to support or create a theory,

 

[Taranis]

I think we must leave Uralic outside of IE,
Summerian seem to exist in all IE languages even Turkic but Uralic don't

now Summerian to IE and Turkic or vice versa (αντιθετος διαδρομη) Ι can not certify,
but surely we can not close our eyes in order to support or create a theory,

You've missed my point entirely. I brought in the Uralic languages because the Finno-Uralic word for "iron" (Finnish "rauta") was borrowed from a Balto-Slavic source. As I said, the Balto-Slavic word originally derives from the Indo-European word for "red", thereby disproving Milan's idea that Balto-Slavic got the word from Sumerian (or just Slavic, as he didn't take the Baltic languages into consideration in his post).

 

[Taranis]

Maybe you don't see anything Slavic in Morava,Bustricius etc either but that doesn't matter after all not my problem,you haven't invoked about Thracian again will be the closest language to Balto-Slavic we can't change that.Vlach is borowing from German in Slavic for foreigner,we used this for the Romance speaker indeed,but earlier as you said was for Celtic people,i don't think Trubachev had a lot of non senses to say but OK,you again mention some 2th century "Stavanoi" or what Herodot Schynthian farmers and i give you place names from 500 B.C,well you are very sure in the very things you say without even saying that it is "hypothesis" or probably.

I was talking about the Savaroi (Σαυαροι) also latinized as "Savari", not the "Stavani", and the name is found with Ptolemy, not Herodotus:

 

[Dalmat]

there are no archaeological evidence of any large scale migration, term Slaven is a term that was made on later date in history.
You will not find mention os Slavs in early history, because that term was non existent

Croats have been called, sarmtians, goths, and illyrians interchangeably in a same book as synonyms, by Byzantines, that tells you about their mentality at that time

But also that is the reason why so much theories of Croatians as Gothic, or Iranic ancestry has been made in newer ages.


For me, it seems they just called barbarians north of them like that

 

[Милан М.]

I was talking about the Savaroi (Σαυαροι) also latinized as "Savari", not the "Stavani", and the name is found with Ptolemy, not Herodotus:

The two names have nothing in common.Procopious and Jordanes had different things for them to say and no one said they came from Russian plain,plus the Sklavenoi were warriors not migrant farmers,there was Sklavenoi within the empire helping the others in raids and attacks,they knew when and where to strike,especialy when the empire was at war,every enemy of Roman empire became Sklabenoi/Sklavenoi,Roman empire was crumbling it was not like they were fluorishing and all were happy to be Romans but barbarians destroyed their dream,all this occured under Justinian reign,Procopious in his secret history described him as the worst emperor,Romans themselves retreat from the Balkan peninsula,the term Sclavinia/Sklaviniae was used for territory without Roman control and authority hand in hand with Sklavenoi,something like Enclave.

 

[Taranis]

there are no archaeological evidence of any large scale migration, term Slaven is a term that was made on later date in history.

The problem with that idea, and I think I'm repeating myself in this thread:


If you claim "the migration period never happened", then you have to explain where Slavic languages were spoken before. The region you mentioned (Croatia) was part of the Roman Empire. We have plenty of linguistic evidence from all areas that were part of the Roman Empire, including the Balkans, including the entire Danube river region from source to mouth. If early Slavic speakers were present there, we should have plenty of evidence for them. We do not have that, and Florin Curta (for example) should have been aware of that, which is why you can (obviously) dismiss his hypothesis.

The alternative, of course, is that you go the full pseudoscientist route and claim "Illyrians, Pannonians, Thracians, etc. were actually secretly Slavs", and then you're moving into the terrain of irredentists and charlatans.

You will not find mention os Slavs in early history, because that term was non existent

I won't disagree there, but I do not see how the self-designation as "Slav" is actually relevant to the actual question of the thread (Slavic homeland / Slavic ethnogenesis). Unless you claim that the Slavic languages magically came out of thin air in the 5th century or so, you have to explain that somebody, somewhere spoke the Proto-Slavic language.

 

[Милан М.]

there are no archaeological evidence of any large scale migration, term Slaven is a term that was made on later date in history.
You will not find mention os Slavs in early history, because that term was non existent

Croats have been called, sarmtians, goths, and illyrians interchangeably in a same book as synonyms, by Byzantines, that tells you about their mentality at that time

But also that is the reason why so much theories of Croatians as Gothic, or Iranic ancestry has been made in newer ages.


For me, it seems they just called barbarians north of them like that

First dating "We are Slavs" is from 12th century Russian chronicles,but that was more like claiming ancestry,term Sloven,Slavjan in Slavic sense mean speaker of Slavic,but not in ethnic sense only speaker of my tongue,well how could they be pirates and harrass trough Adriatic if they came from Carpathians even made boats to laid siege on Constantinople with Avars and Persians,weird Sklavenoi etrified: and harassed the Romans elsewhere.

 

[Милан М.]

The problem with that idea, and I think I'm repeating myself in this thread:


If you claim "the migration period never happened", then you have to explain where Slavic languages were spoken before. The region you mentioned (Croatia) was part of the Roman Empire. We have plenty of linguistic evidence from all areas that were part of the Roman Empire, including the Balkans, including the entire Danube river region from source to mouth. If early Slavic speakers were present there, we should have plenty of evidence for them. We do not have that, and Florin Curta (for example) should have been aware of that, which is why you can (obviously) dismiss his hypothesis.

The alternative, of course, is that you go the full pseudoscientist route and claim "Illyrians, Pannonians, Thracians, etc. were actually secretly Slavs", and then you're moving into the terrain of irredentists and charlatans.



I won't disagree there, but I do not see how the self-designation as "Slav" is actually relevant to the actual question of the thread (Slavic homeland / Slavic ethnogenesis). Unless you claim that the Slavic languages magically came out of thin air in the 5th century or so, you have to explain that somebody, somewhere spoke the Proto-Slavic language.

Map of Constantine the Great empire,What kind of evidence you have which languages was spoken within the empire?apart from Latin being adminstrative,do you have any mention of Albanian for instance or the Vlachs,was from that period any Thracian,Illyrian inscription,couple times i wrote Slavic toponyms in Pannonia and Danube basin and quite old ones,Slavic language was quite irrelevant until they gain power,there was perhaps some Slavicization in the Balkans like it was Romanization,but migration period archeology fail to prove speacialy in the Balkans,cause material culture wasn't changed,couple cremation burials in Greece,Bulgaria,Croatia could indicate "barbarians" but very small number and maybe not,but how one will explain the demographic collapse in the same region from 6th-7th century exactly when migration supposed to happening.