South Albania Tumulus DNA samples

PaleoRevenge

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FYI this was posted by mount123 in the Bronze Age forum:

"Archaeogenomic pilot research of Kamenice, a prehistoric Albanian tumulus (1600-500 BCE)

Abstract:
"Situated in southeastern Albania at the interface of the Aegean and the Adriatic, the Tumulus of Kamenice was used for inhumations from 1600 to 500 BCE. In this work, we generated genome-wide SNP data for 25 individuals from Kamenice that span the full time transect, providing the unique and first possibility for insights into biological relatedness and demography of a single tumulus in Late Bronze Age and Iron Age Albania.
We identified a genetically homogeneous population throughout the respective time in contrast to all societal transformations in the wider region. Moreover, we found evidence for a patrilineal society, within which all the males’ Y chromosomes belong to two distinct sub-groups of R1b1a1b (M269). We identified the biological relatedness up to 6th degree with IBD analysis. The amount of relatedness raised after 750 BCE. We also detected a signature of a population size decrease around 750 BCE using HapROH, which coincides with the prevalence of Y chromosome lineage R1b1a1b1b3 and a new way of grave construction. Besides, a female individual was biologically related to individuals both before and after 750 BCE. Overall, all the ancient DNA evidence support a local population bottleneck event."


https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...an-case/page42?p=665993&viewfull=1#post665993


Looks like South Albania starts out as R1b-PF7563 and is joined by R1b-Z2103 in LBA. This is the culture group that is parent of Messapii. I am guessing the paper comes out later this year?
 
Don't know where he got it, but it's interesting indeed, all 25 samples belong to two R1b subclades. I guess R1b-Z2103 and R1b-PF7562.

Can we safely assume that Albanian R1b-Z2103 arose within Albania?
 
Don't know where he got it, but it's interesting indeed, all 25 samples belong to two R1b subclades. I guess R1b-Z2103 and R1b-PF7562.

Can we safely assume that Albanian R1b-Z2103 arose within Albania?

I see R1b-Z2103 as coming over from Kosovo and adjacent regions during LBA turbulence events from central Europe. I am certain these are mostly dead-end branches, ie. not the Albanian (R-Z2705) branch, but LBA cousin branches. In rrenjet, I saw one or two R1b-Z2103 that were different branches in southern Albania, not BY611. These are the likely remnants, modern day survivors of the former burial kings.

Keep in mind, if R1b-Z2103 is native in Albania, it should be present in BA Greece. I don't see how that is possible, that it kept itself segregated from the Mycenaean world while PF7562/3 did not.
 
I see R1b-Z2103 as coming over from Kosovo and adjacent regions during LBA turbulence events from central Europe. I am certain these are mostly dead-end branches, ie. not the Albanian (R-Z2705) branch, but LBA cousin branches. In rrenjet, I saw one or two R1b-Z2103 that were different branches in southern Albania, not BY611. These are the likely remnants, modern day survivors of the former burial kings.

Keep in mind, if R1b-Z2103 is native in Albania, it should be present in BA Greece. I don't see how that is possible, that it kept itself segregated from the Mycenaean world while PF7562/3 did not.

That's an interesting theory, but i just don't see how Brnjica people or Paracin who practiced flat cremation graves with urns go down and change their burial rite to specific tumulus inhumations. I have issues with this part only. On the other hand the absence of R1b-Z2103 in Ancient Greece is tricky indeed. Perhaps more sampling will show in Northern Greece? Who knows.
 
That's an interesting theory, but i just don't see how Brnjica people or Paracin who practiced flat cremation graves with urns go down and change their burial rite to specific tumulus inhumations. I have issues with this part only. On the other hand the absence of R1b-Z2103 in Ancient Greece is tricky indeed. Perhaps more sampling will show in Northern Greece? Who knows.

That's a good point, I can't reconcile that part, I don't even have the archeological trail behind my claim, it is solely based on indirect evidence and that Messapii are called Calabri, which is without a doubt related to Dardani Galabri. But, Messapii clearly came from southern Albanian matt-painted culture, so a branch of Dardanii somehow joined the ride from south Albania into Apulia.
I am going to post what Huban did on Anthrogenica, he claimed he posted a map, but the link is defunct, if you saved it please post it. He was likely reading off Serbian sources which is beyond me.

Interestingly part of them, hit by Urnfield waves in LBA/EIA migrated to Southern Albania where they together with others formed a culture there. And Messapians seem to descend of those. Albanian language can only fit into such Illyrian scenario where proto-Dardanian like language was Illyrianized as we know from the traits of Albanian language that it cannot possibly be closely related to Illyrian of the Glasinac-Mati proper.

Dardani that stayed after the Urnfield waves were conquered by the Glasinac-Mati Illyrians proper.

White dots border represents the Carpatho-Lower Danubian complex where proto-Dardanian Mediana and Gornja Brnjica and Gornja Stražava are together in a group with Paraćin, Vatina, Žutobrdo groups. These were cremation dominated proto-Daco-Mysian groups. Žutobrdo had some possible Etruscan links.
Black dots represents the border of typically Illyrian exclusively inhumation funerary rite. You see the Western Serbain Vatina variant, which was a branch of Vatina strongly influenced i.e. Illyrianised from Glasinac direction. Although originally in their old layers they practiced cremation like the rest of Vatina.


In Eastern Bosnia Glasinac group. In Northern Albania its relative Mati group. Also Kukes group to the East. South of Shkumbin river you see the Southern Albanian Tumulii culture. Maliq C-D. You see a migration towards the sites of this culture by the people of G.Brnjica culture. This was due to Urnfield pressure. Maliq, Barç and Kuçi i Zi were most important sites of this culture.


This was the proto-Dardanian migration into S.Albania I was talking about. In addition there is evidence that due to Urnfield pressure Western Vatina people also migrated there.
To the North marked by the spaced vertical lines is the great Urnfield complex. You see it reached into Bosnia. But not Albania. Small Urnfield influence in Albania is marked by the presence of Gava culture elements who seem to have migrated to the South with Brnjica people. They may have actually pushed them to the South as well. And they may have been pushed by another Urnfield wave.
In the West are marked Delmatae, Liburnii and Iapodii archeological cultures.
No. 3, 4 are Varvara and Pod sites who were connected to Glasinac. These two actually had older links with the Posušje culture where J-L283 was found. So you can extrapolate Glasinac must have had lots of J-L283.



This demarcation line of Shkumbin river persisted into the Iron Age, so the Southern Albanian tumulii culture continued its existence parallel and independent of Glasinac-Mati. This culture has not been talked about much but it was important.
It was a melange of various elements including various migrants from the North. One of these were proto-Dardanii of G.Brnjica culture several centuries before Glasinac-Mati people expanded into Dardania.

The finds for this group come entirely from graves in the southern Morava region and the Kosovo area in the latest phase of Iron Age I, and in the present state of research it is not possible to say whether we have to deal with one group or two regional variants . The best known cemetery is at Donja Brnjica . Burials in specially constructed graves were arranged in groups . The dead were cremated and their ashes placed in urns set on stone slabs . Each urn was placed on a stone slab and often covered by a stone slab . Both individual and communal graves were found . In most cases the urns were fenced in and covered by a stone layer consisting of concentrically arranged white pebbles or boulders . Bronze arrow - heads are the most typical metal find, being either flat - based or tanged to fix in a shaft . Such arrows can be traced back into the Bronze Age , for instance in the Paraćin group of the Morava region . Typical too are pins with a conical head and a widened neck which can be dated with certainty to Hallstatt B3 , at the very end of our Iron Age 1 . 38 Of the pottery the most characteristic are vessels with two vertical knobbed handles, but there are also some vessels with horizontal handles and some urns with long or short conical necks and a highly pronounced body. Sometimes two or four knobbed handles were placed on the body ( fig . 52 , 8 – 12 ) . At Gornja Stražava in the Toplica valley in Cemetery I urn - graves were fenced in with a double circle of stones . The pottery here is related to that at Donja Brnjica , and a pin resembles those at Donja Brnjica . 39 A similar urn has been found at Togočevac near Leskovac . The pottery in its shapes and handles is completely in the tradition of the Morava region in the Bronze Age . Since the southern Morava region and Kosovo were occupied by the Dardani , this pottery may be regarded as particular to them . The handles of the urns in both areas are the same , but some urns at Gornja Stražava are very similar to those of the cemetery of Dalj in the Dalj - Val - Podol group in southern Pannonia , which are dated Hallstatt B , and so late in our Iron Age I after 1000 B . C . Certain pottery shapes connected with the Donja Brnjica group were found as large pithoi for the depot at the site of Markova Varoš near Prilep , and at Kale Fortress at Skopje . In the depot of Plovdiv in Thrace vessels were found in different layers in a pit , and among them were vessels of the traditional shapes of the Daco - Mysian region in the Bronze Age , such as two - handled vessels and vessels with cut - away neck . The nearest analogy to them was found at a Late Bronze Age cemetery at Zimnicea on the Danube in Romania . 40 Other vessels with omphaloi , conical necks and handles set on the body were very close to those at Dalj and to the urns of the Donja Stražava -- Gornja Brnjica group .
 
So I guess this is where my paternal-lineage may have come from? Cool!

We have a prelude of the aDNA profile from the southern arc paper sample that was labeled mdv Albania (Alb_mdv_I13834_R-PF7563), but the aDNA profile is blatantly LBA, somehow it got missdated, despite being allegedly carbon dated. Either way, if the coming 500 samples from pre-Roman Italy include Apulia, this will easily put to the test because any EIA R-PF7563 and R-Z2103 from Apulia should show aDNA affinities to the south Albanian Tumulus samples. We will get an absolute answer.
 
@PaleoRevenge @Hawk

It has been posted on Twitter which was linked in the Bronze Age Balkan thread. The same twitter user I assume is also "Suevi" who has posted the content info text on blogpost where he said it is due to be published in the next months/weeks as it has been submitted to EAA which I have mentioned.

There is a part of EAAs website where one can click on such handed in papers and get a short content text though this and the other paper's info text are not available to those who don't have a two way membership it seems.

We'll get to know more in this regard in the future I guess. There is a summit by the EAA in Belfast End of August I think.
 
@PaleoRevenge @Hawk

It has been posted on Twitter which was linked in the Bronze Age Balkan thread. The same twitter user I assume is also "Suevi" who has posted the content info text on blogpost where he said it is due to be published in the next months/weeks as it has been submitted to EAA which I have mentioned.

There is a part of EAAs website where one can click on such handed in papers and get a short content text though this and the other paper's info text are not available to those who don't have a two way membership it seems.

We'll get to know more in this regard in the future I guess. There is a summit by the EAA in Belfast End of August I think.

Thanks a lot mount, now I understand what is happening. This Suevi guy is like Brumi, he gets a peak before papers are published. I was searching trying to see if I could find similar abstract for the Transylvanian paper assuming it was buried somewhere in that conference website from September. No such abstract exists for the Romanian paper because it has yet to be submitted, but the Kamenica paper is clearly 3-6 weeks away from going public.

It all makes sense why Brumi and co have gone silent, similar to the time I exposed their G25 regional averages, that silence when one mourns. He knows I will wipe the floor with him, he talked a lot of smack about my correct assessment of I13834 being ancient(LBA) and the debates about R1b-PF7563 in BA Greece. He is dreading what's coming.
 
Btw, Paleo looking it deeper the Enchelei practiced cremation as well: https://pebasite.wordpress.com/peba-2020/representations-of-power-an-ancient-macedonian-elite/

I think Enchelei stemmed from same cultural context as these people and these are progenitors of so called Trebeniste Culture.

Perhaps you might be right, some Brnjica went indeed down. Before i thought E-V13 might have to do with it, but that doesn't look like the case.

So, what we see here, potentially Proto-Albanians were formed by a mixture of three different cultural-complexes from ancient Balkans. Picture might be more complex than it is assumed.
 
That's a good point, I can't reconcile that part, I don't even have the archeological trail behind my claim, it is solely based on indirect evidence and that Messapii are called Calabri, which is without a doubt related to Dardani Galabri. But, Messapii clearly came from southern Albanian matt-painted culture, so a branch of Dardanii somehow joined the ride from south Albania into Apulia.
Well Messapics were an IA people of South Eastern Italy, so MP would have functioned as one of the fundamental Balkan source migrations. How is up to debate, some linguists proposed that they have joined their North Western unrelated neighbours in the LBA/IA which kind of looks like it. Interesting to note is that the Post-Yamnaya/Catacomb patrilineage has indeed had some sort of refugium/expansion hub in the Central Balkans now confirmed in the South Central Balkans as in North Macedonia extending into Southern/North Eastern Albania (given the Bryges and Paeonians of Middle Albania that is likely an area to be included, too, into this sphere). Add to that Paracin, Brnjica connections to MBA Ulanci, I think, as was discussed before, a similar picture will likely persist to the North of North Macedonia (meaning partially Kosova and Serbia) except for the presence of some other competing cultures (as we see in Northern Albania especially North West).

There is a matt-painted pottery map in the Bronze Age Balkan thread but cannot paste that here for some reason.
 
Well Messapics were an IA people of South Eastern Italy, so MP would have functioned as one of the fundamental Balkan source migrations. How is up to debate, some linguists proposed that they have joined their North Western unrelated neighbours in the LBA/IA which kind of looks like it. Interesting to note is that the Post-Yamnaya/Catacomb patrilineage has indeed had some sort of refugium/expansion hub in the Central Balkans now confirmed in the South Central Balkans as in North Macedonia extending into Southern/North Eastern Albania (given the Bryges and Paeonians of Middle Albania that is likely an area to be included, too, into this sphere). Add to that Paracin, Brnjica connections to MBA Ulanci, I think, as was discussed before, a similar picture will likely persist to the North of North Macedonia (meaning partially Kosova and Serbia) except for the presence of some other competing cultures (as we see in Northern Albania especially North West).

There is a matt-painted pottery map in the Bronze Age Balkan thread but cannot paste that here for some reason.

It is very possible an Illyrian tribe mediated the crossing of the Messapii from Albania to Apulia, but keep in mind, J2b-L283 was already established in Apulia through Cetina era expansions, so how can one truly differentiate without deep clade samples from pre-IA and post-IA? The fact that all online articles mention matt-painted pottery in association with Messapii (and the other two tribes) shows that this was the main component that makes Messapi....Messapi. And it came from south Albania, it is the layer that had the last say.

We know R1b-Z2103 and PF7563 did not come from Dalmatia, we have plenty of samples from Dalmatia(from BA to Roman). And archeology says south Albania. Now haplgrogroup evidence is lining up with archeology, as expected.
 
Btw, Paleo looking it deeper the Enchelei practiced cremation as well: https://pebasite.wordpress.com/peba-2020/representations-of-power-an-ancient-macedonian-elite/

I think Enchelei stemmed from same cultural context as these people and these are progenitors of so called Trebeniste Culture.

Perhaps you might be right, some Brnjica went indeed down. Before i thought E-V13 might have to do with it, but that doesn't look like the case.

So, what we see here, potentially Proto-Albanians were formed by a mixture of three different cultural-complexes from ancient Balkans. Picture might be more complex than it is assumed.

Good point, if we get more samples from Ohrid, R1b-z2103 will likely show up, especially after they dropped cremation. Remember the 3 R1b-PF7563 in Pylos, an inscription from Pylos mentions Enchelei. Based on EBA sample in northern Albania and the current evidence, R1b-PF7563 was without a doubt the major haplogroup in central and southern Albania, and gradually lost ground.

We should expect aDNA to be similar to MKD Ohrid group, Alb I13834 and the Cretan Xan030(R-PF7562) which already have shown to be similar to each other.

Albanian starts as some R-Z2103 and E-V13 union, that moves west, similar to these LBA cousin branches taking shelter in the west. Questions that linger are, was there any R1b-PF7563 in central Balkans with early Albanians, or was it all picked up in the west?
Brumi claims there will be 2 PF7562/3s in the Serbian BA paper, the way he makes this claims comes of as if he knows. The Serbian paper is around the corner, and should be out by June. A lot will be answered, with the coming aDNA profiles a lot can be reconstructed.
 
It is very possible an Illyrian tribe mediated the crossing of the Messapii from Albania to Apulia, but keep in mind, J2b-L283 was already established in Apulia through Cetina era expansions, so how can one truly differentiate without deep clade samples from pre-IA and post-IA? The fact that all online articles mention matt-painted pottery in association with Messapii (and the other two tribes) shows that this was the main component that makes Messapi....Messapi. And it came from south Albania, it is the layer that had the last say.

We know R1b-Z2103 and PF7563 did not come from Dalmatia, we have plenty of samples from Dalmatia(from BA to Roman). And archeology says south Albania. Now haplgrogroup evidence is lining up with archeology, as expected.
I totally agree with what you write here. Was mainly talking about what Matzinger and Gavranovic proposed. The Matt-Painted Pottery connection for R1b-Z2103 and R1b-PF7563 is clear at this point.
 
I don't know where some people are getting their ideas from but nobody from anthrogenica has ever claimed that there are 1-3 R-PF7562 in BA Serbia. They might show up sooner or later, especially in the Illyrian parts, but nobody has claimed so.


We identified a genetically homogeneous population throughout the respective time in contrast to all societal transformations in the wider region. Moreover, we found evidence for a patrilineal society, within which all the males’ Y chromosomes belong to two distinct sub-groups of R1b1a1b (M269). = homogeneous population which carried two distinct R-M269 sub-groups. There aren't two populations here but just one.

There is no "intrusion" or a "late comer" after 750 BCE. The abstract even clarifies that "Overall, all the ancient DNA evidence support a local population bottleneck event."

Daunians have R-Z2103 with J-L283 and many of us on anthrogenica have long posted there that R-Z2103+ is one of the lineages which brought Pre-Proto-Illyrian in the Balkans. Daunians didn't settle in the Iron Age in Italy, they were there by the Late Bronze Age and Z2103 and PF7562 will go hand in hand there. It's unknown where E-V13 might fit but we've got both in Albania and Apulia 3 haplogroups which are shared by Illyrians and Iapygians.

https://books.google.com/books?id=TWmRDwAAQBAJ The Excavation of the Prehistoric Burial Tumulus at Lofkend, Albania :

Apart from the burials, the only significant feature we encountered was a line of stones, intentionally placed on tumulus fill (Fig. 2.12; the wall is also just visible in Fig. 2.8 and in several of the aerial photographs [see below] ). As seen in Chapter 17, many Illyrian tumuli had a ring of stones defining the outer limit of the mound (e.g., Barc and Cinamak), often with the burial—or burials—lined and covered with stone (see Figs. 17.2-17.3). In the case of the larger tumulus at Kamenice a large stone ring, together with multiple smaller stone rings, and more substantial constructions of stone, were encountered (Fig. 17.6; cf. some of the stone tumuli of Shtoj: Koka 2012:23-52). In other parts of the Balkans, burial mounds with similar stone constructions were common, such as the tumuli of Pogoni in Epirus (e.g., Andreou 1981, 1982a, 1982b, 1983, 1985, 1997; Andreou and An-dreou 1987) or even the mounds largely constructed of dry stone, like those at the base of Biokovo Moun-tain in Croatia (e.g., Olujid 2011; for stone and earth tumuli in northern Italy, see Borga and Cassola Guida 2007). In this respect, the Lofkend tumulus more closely resembled the Patos mound excavated by Kor-kuti, in that it was largely made of earth.

This group of tumuli in Kamenica is linked to other Illyrian tumuli in Albania. More evidence that Illyrian R1b was PF7562 and Z2103 and more evidence that it's really pointless for some people to keep trying to link Z2103 with some "Central Balkan intrusion". It's been found not in one but two main Illyrian centers and Daunians.

Daunians: J-L283, R-Z2103
Cinamak Illyrians: J-L283, R-Z2103, R-PF7562
Kamenica Illyrians: R-PF7562, R-Z2103

It seems that R-Z2103 moved with Iapygians across the Adriatic into Italy. It probably means that PF7562 will be found too.
 
This is what your alter ego wrote. You don't remember?

R-PF7562 in the total number of samples from Greece, represents a very small percentage (equal to J-L283). The oldest R-PF7562 in the Balkans so far is most likely from EBA Albania. I say most likely because he's R-L23* but we'll also find more than a few R-PF7562+ samples in the Lalueza-Fox study in the BA Balkans to the north of Albania. The presence of R-PF7562 in Crete has more than a few possible sources and him being a Mycenaean and not someone of Balkan extraction is the least likely option.

Omitted his/your retarded model.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...mp-Europe-quot&p=900017&viewfull=1#post900017


Maliq/Sovjan/Kamenica/Barc, the Devoll group and Mallakstra are called the Kuci i Zi culture, they share overall culture package with the matt-painted horizon which extends deep into Greek Macedonia. As expected hillbillies that just emerged out their caves are using Enver Hoxha wet dreams terms, Kamenica Illyrians.:LOL: Still living 50 years backward.

article_prehistoric-pottery_1-1024x918.jpg



More evidence that Illyrian R1b was PF7562 and Z2103 and more evidence that it's really pointless for some people to keep trying to link Z2103 with some "Central Balkan intrusion". It's been found not in one but two main Illyrian centers and Daunians.

Kukes is a Illyrian frontier outpost, not a center. Illyrian centers have zero PF7562 and Z2103. Daunians are a diaspora population, without a doubt Z2103 is linked with the matt-painted migration from southern Albania. See the map above.

Cinamak Illyrians: J-L283, R-Z2103, R-PF7562

Frontier Illyrians, near Dardani(R-Z2103) and near lake Ohrid (R-PF7562, J2a).

Kamenica Illyrians: R-PF7562, R-Z2103

Enver Hoxha Bolshevist wet dreams. 3rd world level IQ propaganda.

It seems that R-Z2103 moved with Iapygians across the Adriatic into Italy.

There is zero R-Z2103 in Dalmatia or with Japodians of Croaita, how did they bring it Brumi i Zi, maybe your English gay lover can save you here? You're purposely lying, by taking a Greek mislabel for the Messapii as a foundation to make nonexistent associations. Messappi have no connection with Japodians, they came from southern Albania. Culturally and DNA there is no relation between Japodians and BA and IA southern Albanian. Openly dishonest.

It probably means that PF7562 will be found too.

Sure, but Japodians did not have it. South Albania and ancient Greeks did.:bigsmile:
 
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I don't know where some people are getting their ideas from but nobody from anthrogenica has ever claimed that there are 1-3 R-PF7562 in BA Serbia. They might show up sooner or later, especially in the Illyrian parts, but nobody has claimed so.


We identified a genetically homogeneous population throughout the respective time in contrast to all societal transformations in the wider region. Moreover, we found evidence for a patrilineal society, within which all the males’ Y chromosomes belong to two distinct sub-groups of R1b1a1b (M269). = homogeneous population which carried two distinct R-M269 sub-groups. There aren't two populations here but just one.

There is no "intrusion" or a "late comer" after 750 BCE. The abstract even clarifies that "Overall, all the ancient DNA evidence support a local population bottleneck event."

Daunians have R-Z2103 with J-L283 and many of us on anthrogenica have long posted there that R-Z2103+ is one of the lineages which brought Pre-Proto-Illyrian in the Balkans. Daunians didn't settle in the Iron Age in Italy, they were there by the Late Bronze Age and Z2103 and PF7562 will go hand in hand there. It's unknown where E-V13 might fit but we've got both in Albania and Apulia 3 haplogroups which are shared by Illyrians and Iapygians.

https://books.google.com/books?id=TWmRDwAAQBAJ The Excavation of the Prehistoric Burial Tumulus at Lofkend, Albania :

Apart from the burials, the only significant feature we encountered was a line of stones, intentionally placed on tumulus fill (Fig. 2.12; the wall is also just visible in Fig. 2.8 and in several of the aerial photographs [see below] ). As seen in Chapter 17, many Illyrian tumuli had a ring of stones defining the outer limit of the mound (e.g., Barc and Cinamak), often with the burial—or burials—lined and covered with stone (see Figs. 17.2-17.3). In the case of the larger tumulus at Kamenice a large stone ring, together with multiple smaller stone rings, and more substantial constructions of stone, were encountered (Fig. 17.6; cf. some of the stone tumuli of Shtoj: Koka 2012:23-52). In other parts of the Balkans, burial mounds with similar stone constructions were common, such as the tumuli of Pogoni in Epirus (e.g., Andreou 1981, 1982a, 1982b, 1983, 1985, 1997; Andreou and An-dreou 1987) or even the mounds largely constructed of dry stone, like those at the base of Biokovo Moun-tain in Croatia (e.g., Olujid 2011; for stone and earth tumuli in northern Italy, see Borga and Cassola Guida 2007). In this respect, the Lofkend tumulus more closely resembled the Patos mound excavated by Kor-kuti, in that it was largely made of earth.

This group of tumuli in Kamenica is linked to other Illyrian tumuli in Albania. More evidence that Illyrian R1b was PF7562 and Z2103 and more evidence that it's really pointless for some people to keep trying to link Z2103 with some "Central Balkan intrusion". It's been found not in one but two main Illyrian centers and Daunians.

Daunians: J-L283, R-Z2103
Cinamak Illyrians: J-L283, R-Z2103, R-PF7562
Kamenica Illyrians: R-PF7562, R-Z2103

It seems that R-Z2103 moved with Iapygians across the Adriatic into Italy. It probably means that PF7562 will be found too.

Daunians came to Italy from modern North-Croatia ( as per 2021 paper ) .............is this classified as Central Balkan or northern Balkan ?
 
How - but we'll also find more than a few R-PF7562+ samples in the Lalueza-Fox study in the BA Balkans to the north of Albania. translates only to BA Serbia in the minds of some people is mind-boggling.

Anyway, Cinamak and Kamenica are Illyrian and Kuç i Zi is properly seen as the most southern extension of Glasinac-Mati:

https://www.wiley.com/en-ie/The+Illyrians-p-9780631198079 The Illyrians, John Wilkes:

In central Albania the cemetery of 25 tumuli at Pazhok commenced in the Late Bronze Age (c.1300 BC) but would appear to have gone out of use by 700 BC, though many of its
tumuli have yet to be explored. Further east in the Korce basin, which lies south of the Lakes, the great tumulus at Barc (41 m diameter) contained a primary burial of the Late Bronze Age. After a considerable interval burials began to be inserted into
the mound and continued for around three centuries until around 850 BC:. SO far nearly 200 graves have been recovered, representing a large ruling elite rather than the succession of a single dynasty. The earlier burials contained jewellery and ornaments of gold and bronze, an early variety of the 'spectacle'-brooch, and pottery decorated with knobs and nipples, the so-called Devoll ware. The burials at Barc contain significantly fewer weapons than those in the Mat and Drin valleys. As a whole they appear to relate more closely with a group of burials a few miles to the south at Kuc i Zi, also in the Korce basin, which so far represent the most southerly extension of the (Gasinac-Mat material culture.

If some people here want to continue a pointless debate which gets them nowhere, they can really can do so. The bottom line is that Z2103 is found among Illyrians and Daunians and the paper calls both Z2103 and PF7562 part of the a homogeneous population.

One more bad hypothesis collapses (again): Z2103 was in Albania since at least the LBA and didn't move there after the 6th century AD like some here claimed.

Over and out.
 
R1b-Z2103 was all over Balkans in Early Bronze Age, the point being we don't know where the specific Albanian subclade was.

Hell, i am sure Early Cardials from Northern Epirus and Southern Albania must include E-L618, but the E-V13 story so far looks far away from Albania.

In conclusion, i see no issue in that a more R1b-Z2103/R1b-PF(cannot remember exact mutation) culture mingled with a more J2b2-L283 Glasinac-Mati to form Southern Illyrians by classical antquity.
 
How - but we'll also find more than a few R-PF7562+ samples in the Lalueza-Fox study in the BA Balkans to the north of Albania. translates only to BA Serbia in the minds of some people is mind-boggling.

Brumi boy, the only upcoming Fox paper is the Serbian one. If you know something we don't, say it, stop being ambiguous like a woman. Sounds to me like you are making a blind guess trying to do what I did, except I don't guess, I back into the evidence.

Anyway, Cinamak and Kamenica are Illyrian and Kuç i Zi is properly seen as the most southern extension of Glasinac-Mati:

Wishful thinking, communist era gobbledygook.

I'm not too keen on reading what that paid hack is referring to, but I am certain it is the "change" in burial costumes that occurs post 750 BCE, so a Illyrian invasion from the north, except it is not even Illyrian it turns out, but another wave of Brnjica being kicked out of Kukes and western Kosovo.:LOL:


If some people here want to continue a pointless debate which gets them nowhere, they can really can do so. The bottom line is that Z2103 is found among Illyrians and Daunians and the paper calls both Z2103 and PF7562 part of the a homogeneous population.

One more bad hypothesis collapses (again): Z2103 was in Albania since at least the LBA and didn't move there after the 6th century AD like some here claimed.

My son, I predicted R-Z2103 with R-PF7563 in southern Albania as the main haplogroups of Kuci i Zi culture and it has nothing to do with Illyrians.
Here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...an-case/page36?p=664690&viewfull=1#post664690
and here https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...an-case/page39?p=665293&viewfull=1#post665293


Over and out.

Goodnight Brumi.
 

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