Genetic study South Albania Tumulus DNA samples

[mount123]

The only way to verify is to sample Bronze Age burials from that area. Then, we can have a precise picture.

Of course. As is often the case.

Come on man, don't resort to those kind of arguments. You're better than Brumi and his kind.

That is a totally valid point I have raised. Plenty such examples exist in archaeogenetics.

With regards to the Albanian medieval sample, well, I went by what the authors of the paper have stated. I also double checked and it is human remains (not wood or other archeological artefacts) that have been radiocarbondated. A reservoir effect might be possible or we are really just dealing with a case of more strong continuity in the region.

Mount I have always argued for R1b-Z2103>(CTS1450) being centered in the central Balkans, but there is a specific branch that was assimilated into Illyrians during MBA and their decedents invaded Macedonia in Iron Age. There is no contradiction here, they expanded at the expense Paeoni who also are under R1b-Z2103>(CTS1450) and not Illyrian.

In order to test this hypothesis high coverage aDNA samples are needed to confirm downstream clades beyond R1b-Z2103 or CTS1450 level or any other major clade of Z2103.

I favor a local Bronze Age origin but that is just my opinion I am emphasizing. I think there are good points speaking in favor of this. Deviates a lot from your proposal that I don't agree with, other than that, too, totally valid.

 

[z00m]

When are these samples being released ?

 

[blevins13]

FYI this was posted by mount123 in the Bronze Age forum:

"Archaeogenomic pilot research of Kamenice, a prehistoric Albanian tumulus (1600-500 BCE)

Abstract:
"Situated in southeastern Albania at the interface of the Aegean and the Adriatic, the Tumulus of Kamenice was used for inhumations from 1600 to 500 BCE. In this work, we generated genome-wide SNP data for 25 individuals from Kamenice that span the full time transect, providing the unique and first possibility for insights into biological relatedness and demography of a single tumulus in Late Bronze Age and Iron Age Albania.
We identified a genetically homogeneous population throughout the respective time in contrast to all societal transformations in the wider region. Moreover, we found evidence for a patrilineal society, within which all the males’ Y chromosomes belong to two distinct sub-groups of R1b1a1b (M269). We identified the biological relatedness up to 6th degree with IBD analysis. The amount of relatedness raised after 750 BCE. We also detected a signature of a population size decrease around 750 BCE using HapROH, which coincides with the prevalence of Y chromosome lineage R1b1a1b1b3 and a new way of grave construction. Besides, a female individual was biologically related to individuals both before and after 750 BCE. Overall, all the ancient DNA evidence support a local population bottleneck event."


https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...an-case/page42?p=665993&viewfull=1#post665993


Looks like South Albania starts out as R1b-PF7563 and is joined by R1b-Z2103 in LBA. This is the culture group that is parent of Messapii. I am guessing the paper comes out later this year?

Very interesting


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[felipesc500]

Could the Doric Invasion been related to this Migration? Did Ancient Pré Hellenic Macedonians more related to those settlers than Bronze Age Mycenean(Achaeans)?
Illyrians were certainly related to Urnfield-Like societies, off course the Bronze Age population should been the most important on the Genetical Base, however the culture certainly came with Urnfield-Tumulus like invaders from Tumulus-Urnfield Cultural Complex.

 

[peloponnesian]

Could the Doric Invasion been related to this Migration? Did Ancient Pré Hellenic Macedonians more related to those settlers than Bronze Age Mycenean(Achaeans)?
Illyrians were certainly related to Urnfield-Like societies, off course the Bronze Age population should been the most important on the Genetical Base, however the culture certainly came with Urnfield-Tumulus like invaders from Tumulus-Urnfield Cultural Complex.

So I suppose it's just a devilish coincidence that the "Urnfield-Tumulus invaders" were speaking a Greek dialect just like the Mycenaeans did. And where is all the Urnfield-Tumulus admixture/haplogroups in the Balkans?

 

[Riverman]

So I suppose it's just a devilish coincidence that the "Urnfield-Tumulus invaders" were speaking a Greek dialect just like the Mycenaeans did. And where is all the Urnfield-Tumulus admixture/haplogroups in the Balkans?

We should be careful about such assumptions, because if you look at Hungary, it was once nearly completely covered by R-L2 Tumulus culture clans, yet today the frequency of R-L2 is a) rather low and b) most of what is there came later with Germans and other Westerners, rather than being local from Bronze Age. The ancient and modern frequencies can be very different.

In Greece we know that a lot of the Urnfield influence was kind of digested or simply pushed back by the locals. So while cultural influences stayed, the longer term genetic ones might have been rather limited.

 

[felipesc500]

We should be careful about such assumptions, because if you look at Hungary, it was once nearly completely covered by R-L2 Tumulus culture clans, yet today the frequency of R-L2 is a) rather low and b) most of what is there came later with Germans and other Westerners, rather than being local from Bronze Age. The ancient and modern frequencies can be very different.

In Greece we know that a lot of the Urnfield influence was kind of digested or simply pushed back by the locals. So while cultural influences stayed, the longer term genetic ones might have been rather limited.

Agree, in fact Doric invaders probably changed their language during the invasion, we cant assume that they had the same language as Doric Hellenics. Also Achaean Greek wasn't the exactly same language that Classical Greek Dialects. Probably Doric Hellenic was a dialect merged between Achaean Greek + Doric Influences like several elite's conquerors made. Indeed Ionic Greeks seems to be really close to Mycenean BA, since we saw with some Empuries Classical Hellenic, even Boetia Classical Greek was very close to, some Himera ones, etc.. Doric Greeks probably had some Epirote-Like drift, classical sources said that Epirus was the Homeland of Dorics, so they could been either one sort of LBA Balkanic population that went South cause of Climatical Changes or a Urnfield-Tumulus elite's group that went Balkans and changed some aspects of culture, social organization, etc..

Doric's Invasion came at the same time that Proto-Villanovan, Gollaseca and Este went to Italy, also the earlier populations on that Areas went to Eastern Mediterranean, reading the cities and causing the Later Bronze Age Collapse, if you have some doubts please take a look to the Philistines from Ashkelon A1 that literally were Mycenean+Caananites. Something went to Hellas and spell several Mycenean Warriors, causing a massive invasion of the Eastern Mediterranean Societies, probably at the time that the Mythical Trojan's War happened.

 

[Riverman]

Agree, in fact Doric invaders probably changed their language during the invasion, we cant assume that they had the same language as Doric Hellenics. Also Achaean Greek wasn't the exactly same language that Classical Greek Dialects. Probably Doric Hellenic was a dialect merged between Achaean Greek + Doric Influences like several elite's conquerors made. Indeed Ionic Greeks seems to be really close to Mycenean BA, since we saw with some Empuries Classical Hellenic, even Boetia Classical Greek was very close to, some Himera ones, etc.. Doric Greeks probably had some Epirote-Like drift, classical sources said that Epirus was the Homeland of Dorics, so they could been either one sort of LBA Balkanic population that went South cause of Climatical Changes or a Urnfield-Tumulus elite's group that went Balkans and changed some aspects of culture, social organization, etc..

Doric's Invasion came at the same time that Proto-Villanovan, Gollaseca and Este went to Italy, also the earlier populations on that Areas went to Eastern Mediterranean, reading the cities and causing the Later Bronze Age Collapse, if you have some doubts please take a look to the Philistines from Ashkelon A1 that literally were Mycenean+Caananites. Something went to Hellas and spell several Mycenean Warriors, causing a massive invasion of the Eastern Mediterranean Societies, probably at the time that the Mythical Trojan's War happened.

I think however that the Dorian invasion was real, but it was neighbouring Greek Dorian tribes being pushed by Urnfielders, not being those Urnfielders themselves. How much they mixed with them in the process and while taking up some of their customs, that's another story. Originally I thought the admixture was substantial, but after the first DNA results from ancient Greeks being out, even if those are in no way complete and conclusive on the matter, I'm no longer as sure about that and think the substantial Urnfielder influence might be restricted to the tribal, Paeonian, Illyrian and Thracian borderlands.

 

[blevins13]

We should be careful about such assumptions, because if you look at Hungary, it was once nearly completely covered by R-L2 Tumulus culture clans, yet today the frequency of R-L2 is a) rather low and b) most of what is there came later with Germans and other Westerners, rather than being local from Bronze Age. The ancient and modern frequencies can be very different.

In Greece we know that a lot of the Urnfield influence was kind of digested or simply pushed back by the locals. So while cultural influences stayed, the longer term genetic ones might have been rather limited.

How you know, have you seen any Dorian DNA yet.


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[Riverman]

How you know, have you seen any Dorian DNA yet.

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I'm going primarily by yDNA and so far we haven't found a lot in Greeks which could be associated that way. Even from areas with (later) Dorian colonies. But we can't know for sure as of yet, agreed.

 

[BenRandy1]

An albanian tumulus? going to show up as being more related to modern albanians like in this

www(dot)yfull(dot)com/tree/R-PF7562/

Especially under the RPF6563 clade. Dozens of modern albanians. Cousins

1 ancient sample of albanian 2 ancient pelasgians.

 

[torzio]

Interesting details, earlier works in Kamenica referred to the change in burial costumes as happening in the 6th century BCE. The new paper with refined methods says it is 750 BCE (8th century). You can read Garasin's summary here using the old dates.;
https://www-rastko-rs.translate.goo...tr_sl=sr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

The timeline cannot be a coincidence, a Glasinac expansion into western Brnjica leads to a new R-Z2103 migration into southern Albania. The new migration creates depopulation, I believe this is the trigger event for Messapii into Italy, why there is a depopulation.

I tried finding when Messapians show up in Italy. I can't find an actual paper, I am assuming that's because such works are in Italian. Here is what I could find:



There is our answer, why there was a "depopulation" in the abstract. I want to emphasize that south-eastern Albania was a late adopter of matt-painted pottery, which shows up only in EIA, that is a migration of Messapii with such material culture during BA collapse is chronologically impossible, making 8th century look correct.

daunians arrived in Foggia Italy circa 1000BC....................messapic arrived in salento peninsula italy circa 650BC ....................they are not the same people, ie, Daunians and Messapics

 

[torzio]

I think however that the Dorian invasion was real, but it was neighbouring Greek Dorian tribes being pushed by Urnfielders, not being those Urnfielders themselves. How much they mixed with them in the process and while taking up some of their customs, that's another story. Originally I thought the admixture was substantial, but after the first DNA results from ancient Greeks being out, even if those are in no way complete and conclusive on the matter, I'm no longer as sure about that and think the substantial Urnfielder influence might be restricted to the tribal, Paeonian, Illyrian and Thracian borderlands.

where do you place these Dorians before their Greek invasion...............take note they had a fleet as they conquered crete, rhodes and other aegean islands which where Mycenean owned at that time

 

[torzio]

daunians arrived in Foggia Italy circa 1000BC....................messapic arrived in salento peninsula italy circa 650BC ....................they are not the same people, ie, Daunians and Messapics

I have seen a few of these comments below

Ionic is the Ithica island group (ionian islands )

 

[torzio]

and

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00437956.1957.11659644

 

[Riverman]

where do you place these Dorians before their Greek invasion...............take note they had a fleet as they conquered crete, rhodes and other aegean islands which where Mycenean owned at that time

There are multiple instances of people coming over land and taking a sea route afterwards. Some of the Sea People moved over land and joined the fleets from Italy too. Or if you think about the Vandals in a later period.

But clearly the Dorians might have been placed between Northern Greece, Albania and Macedonia shortly before their entrance into the Mycenaean world.

 

[torzio]

There are multiple instances of people coming over land and taking a sea route afterwards. Some of the Sea People moved over land and joined the fleets from Italy too. Or if you think about the Vandals in a later period.

But clearly the Dorians might have been placed between Northern Greece, Albania and Macedonia shortly before their entrance into the Mycenaean world.

clearly historians know the history of Valos and the thessallian seaports and have never mentioned Dorians as being there .................are they south adriatic people ?

 

[bigsnake49]

There is a lot of doubt that the the so called Dorian invasion ever occurred. There is a lack of archaeological evidence of such an invasion, the classical Greek authors notwithstanding. We have to be very careful with things that were written down 600-700 years after they occurred with no intervening evidence, documentary or otherwise. Herodotus was given to exaggeration sometimes to gross exaggeration (re: the size of the Persian Army at Thermopylae).

 

[Riverman]

There is a lot of doubt that the the so called Dorian invasion ever occurred. There is a lack of archaeological evidence of such an invasion, the classical Greek authors notwithstanding. We have to be very careful with things that were written down 600-700 years after they occurred with no intervening evidence, documentary or otherwise. Herodotus was given to exaggeration sometimes to gross exaggeration (re: the size of the Persian Army at Thermopylae).

It is, in any case, archaeologically attested that we deal with a kind of chain reaction, with one group from the North pushing the next and so on. And we do know that Greek-related people lived in more Northern areas before, also attested archaeologically. Therefore whatever you call Dorian, Northern Greek people with more Northern admixture and splinters involved did migrate into Mycenaean Greece. No doubt about that. The next reaction was that the Southern Greek tribes moved further South and East too, as a consequence of the pressure.

 

[bigsnake49]

It is, in any case, archaeologically attested that we deal with a kind of chain reaction, with one group from the North pushing the next and so on. And we do know that Greek-related people lived in more Northern areas before, also attested archaeologically. Therefore whatever you call Dorian, Northern Greek people with more Northern admixture and splinters involved did migrate into Mycenaean Greece. No doubt about that. The next reaction was that the Southern Greek tribes moved further South and East too, as a consequence of the pressure.

Unless Dorian Greeks had a material culture that was identical to the rest of the Greek tribes the so called Dorian Invasion is archaeologically a non-event. As in nothing changed except the dialect. The current thinking is that even the dialects were differentiated once in Greece rather than outside of Greece.