Genetic study South Albania Tumulus DNA samples

[PaleoRevenge]

R1b-Z2103 was all over Balkans in Early Bronze Age, the point being we don't know where the specific Albanian subclade was.

Hell, i am sure Early Cardials from Northern Epirus and Southern Albania must include E-L618, but the E-V13 story so far looks far away from Albania.

In conclusion, i see no issue in that a more R1b-Z2103/R1b-PF(cannot remember exact mutation) culture mingled with a more J2b2-L283 Glasinac-Mati to form Southern Illyrians by classical antquity.

J2b-L283 should be found in Mallakaster where Glasinac pottery shows up together with matt-painted. However, even here R-PF7563 maintained a strong presence, because in late antiquity they(Byllones) willingly Hellenized, which points to them feeling a connection to the people south of them, a purely Glasinac zone would not do that on their own will.

Now here is the kicker with the so called Cinamak style burials in Korca basin. They appear after 750 BCE, and the new people per abstract from the paper are R-Z2103. Here is the missing puzzle. I remember reading on ratsko through google translate Garasin's Iron Age description of Serbia. I vividly recall that in the 700s Glasinac push into the Kukes corridor and the Brnjica people give it up without a fight, in the plains of Metohija they bitterly resists but Glasinac manages to carve out their the area west of Drin. Unless google translate the dates wrong, this matches quite perfectly with the events described south.

So what are the odds, that when Glasinac makes a push on western Brnjica, a R-Z2103 people show up in Korca with Cinamak style burials. To pile on further, certain "Dardanians" are recorded as having invaded the area, Alexander's Philip father even fights a Dardanian king in this area. It was even posted somewhere in this forum that the Dardani might have been settled(locals) in this part of Albania in the period in question and not based/operating out of Kosovo.

 

[ihype02]

R1b-Z2103 was all over Balkans in Early Bronze Age, the point being we don't know where the specific Albanian subclade was.

Hell, i am sure Early Cardials from Northern Epirus and Southern Albania must include E-L618, but the E-V13 story so far looks far away from Albania.

In conclusion, i see no issue in that a more R1b-Z2103/R1b-PF(cannot remember exact mutation) culture mingled with a more J2b2-L283 Glasinac-Mati to form Southern Illyrians by classical antquity.

R-Z2103 found in both Illyrians and Thracians. It's a bit weird if old Greeks did not have it.

 

[torzio]

This is what your alter ego wrote. You don't remember?




Maliq/Sovjan/Kamenica/Barc, the Devoll group and Mallakstra are called the Kuci i Zi culture, they share overall culture package with the matt-painted horizon which extends deep into Greek Macedonia. As expected hillbillies that just emerged out their caves are using Enver Hoxha wet dreams terms, Kamenica Illyrians. Still living 50 years backward.

Kukes is a Illyrian frontier outpost, not a center. Illyrian centers have zero PF7562 and Z2103. Daunians are a diaspora population, without a doubt Z2103 is linked with the matt-painted migration from southern Albania. See the map above.



Frontier Illyrians, near Dardani(R-Z2103) and near lake Ohrid (R-PF7562, J2a).



Enver Hoxha Bolshevist wet dreams. 3rd world level IQ propaganda.



There is zero R-Z2103 in Dalmatia or with Japodians of Croaita, how did they bring it Brumi i Zi, maybe your English gay lover can save you here? You're purposely lying, by taking a Greek mislabel for the Messapii as a foundation to make nonexistent associations. Messappi have no connection with Japodians, they came from southern Albania. Culturally and DNA there is no relation between Japodians and BA and IA southern Albanian. Openly dishonest.



Sure, but Japodians did not have it. South Albania and ancient Greeks did.:bigsmile:

Specific sites on the western Adriatic coast, such as Martinsicuro, appear to have had particularly strong links with the eastern Adriatic, and
point to trans-Adriatic economic and cultural links. *457 Imports also start appearing at this stage in the form of painted geometric wares from Apulia in southern Italy, and black
polished wares from both Apulia and the Venetian region in the northern Adriatic. Certain metal items imported from Italy dating to this period have also been found in northern
Dalmatia, including serpentine fibulae and swords with spiral handles. *458 Items of attire, including multi-headed pins and pendants, from this period onwards link Liburnia with the
Iapodian and Histrian regions. *459 Phase 3 (approximately 6 th century BCE) saw links with Picenum, Apulia, and the Venetian region retained, while imports of Greek ceramics with black decoration begin during this period.

Martinscuro is a Liburnian colony in modern Marche Italy ...........also called Picenum

 

[mount123]

There is plenty of archeological work on the whole Balkan peninsula, detailed in depth papers with well thought out chronology. The Western Balkans and Central Balkans were very diverse and there was not just one archaeogenetic/cultural block.

Also, "extension" is called extension for a reason in archeological context it most definitely means neighbouring/foreign acquired characteristics that make a certain sphere intermediary and different from the core.

Example: we also find J2b-L283 in the southern most extension of Middle Danubian Urnfield culture and La Tene but the early formative and general core doesn't have it. Fusions are a normal human process and this can be seen in hundreds of scientific papers.

Also the Daunians were an Italic people with a Balkan subtrate that is more multi-faceted with the earliest expansion being Early Bronze Age Cetina which has brought J2b-L283 to Italy, Matt Painted Ware is something which is at earliest a Late Bronze Age/EIA phenomenon, which should, given the chronology and relatedness of the South Central Balkan Block not show significant J2b-L283 % but rather Post-Yamanyan patrilineage which is R1b-Z2103 and R1b-PF7562.

The Italic patrilineage in Daunians is evident in the presence of R1b-L51 lineages which outnumber Matt-Painted Pottery/ South Central Balkan lineages.

 

[Hawk]

R-Z2103 found in both Illyrians and Thracians. It's a bit weird if old Greeks did not have it.

I didn't see so far R1b-Z2103 having any significant contribution to Thracians, if you mean the Early Bronze Age R1b-Z2103 from Bulgaria, those had nothing to do with Thracian cultures that we see from LBA/Iron Age onwards.

But, let's see more samples. I am not making bold statements, i am surprised how in Early Bronze Age R1b-Z2103 pops everywhere, then suddenly post EBA it's R1b-PF7562 appearing all over in Central-Southern Balkans. Unexpected.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Interesting details, earlier works in Kamenica referred to the change in burial costumes as happening in the 6th century BCE. The new paper with refined methods says it is 750 BCE (8th century). You can read Garasin's summary here using the old dates.;
https://www-rastko-rs.translate.goo...tr_sl=sr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

The timeline cannot be a coincidence, a Glasinac expansion into western Brnjica leads to a new R-Z2103 migration into southern Albania. The new migration creates depopulation, I believe this is the trigger event for Messapii into Italy, why there is a depopulation.

I tried finding when Messapians show up in Italy. I can't find an actual paper, I am assuming that's because such works are in Italian. Here is what I could find:

Although it’s debated amongst scholars, it’s believed the Messapi tribe migrated around the 8^th century BC from the area encompassing modern-day Albania, then known as Illyria. In fact, the name Messapia, a place name still found throughout the region meaning “land between the seas,” derives from the Messapian language and is closely related to Albanian.

https://italoamericano.org/the-messapi/

There is our answer, why there was a "depopulation" in the abstract. I want to emphasize that south-eastern Albania was a late adopter of matt-painted pottery, which shows up only in EIA, that is a migration of Messapii with such material culture during BA collapse is chronologically impossible, making 8th century look correct.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

There is plenty of archeological work on the whole Balkan peninsula, detailed in depth papers with well thought out chronology. The Western Balkans and Central Balkans were very diverse and there was not just one archaeogenetic/cultural block.

Also, "extension" is called extension for a reason in archeological context it most definitely means neighbouring/foreign acquired characteristics that make a certain sphere intermediary and different from the core.

Example: we also find J2b-L283 in the southern most extension of Middle Danubian Urnfield culture and La Tene but the early formative and general core doesn't have it. Fusions are a normal human process and this can be seen in hundreds of scientific papers.

Also the Daunians were an Italic people with a Balkan subtrate that is more multi-faceted with the earliest expansion being Early Bronze Age Cetina which has brought J2b-L283 to Italy, Matt Painted Ware is something which is at earliest a Late Bronze Age/EIA phenomenon, which should, given the chronology and relatedness of the South Central Balkan Block not show significant J2b-L283 % but rather Post-Yamanyan patrilineage which is R1b-Z2103 and R1b-PF7562.

The Italic patrilineage in Daunians is evident in the presence of R1b-L51 lineages which outnumber Matt-Painted Pottery/ South Central Balkan lineages.

This is a quote from over 20 years ago from the the older Kamenica DNA study.

"Figure 3: Photograph of the Great Circle
The Great Circle section of the tumulus With stones outlining it. Note the individual
between the wooden structures in the center, believed to be the earliest member of the
tumulus—individual 395.
During the end of the 7th century B.C. the form of burial in the tumulus changed,
when rock walls were used to define the graves, which were then filled in with stone
(Bejko in press; Figure 4). These often had a full circle of stones or an arch formation, in
which a single individual was placed."
https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/33984/datastream/OBJ/view

The dates are 150 years off, but both papers are describing the same event. This is the last phase of the tumulus tradition.

This quote is interesting.

Apart from the burials, the only significant feature we encountered was a line of stones, intentionally placed on tumulus fill (Fig. 2.12; the wall is also just visible in Fig. 2.8 and in several of the aerial photographs [see below] ). ​

As seen in Chapter 17, many Illyrian tumuli had a ring of stones defining the outer limit of the mound (e.g., Barc and Cinamak), often with the burial—or burials—lined and covered with stone (see Figs. 17.2-17.3). In the case of the larger tumulus at Kamenice a large stone ring, together with multiple smaller stone rings, and more substantial constructions of stone, were encountered (Fig. 17.6; cf. some of the stone tumuli of Shtoj: Koka 2012:23-52).

Barc is right next to Kamenice, should not be used as an example of why the Kamenica style is Illyrian (Albanian archeology at work). It does look like the new rulers came from Cinamak. If so, the question that follows is, was there any J2b-L283 before 750 BCE in Cinamak? It does look like a new wave of migrants from western Brnjica packs up their bags and leaves for Korca basin, most likely because of Glasinac pressure.


Western Brnjica had Illyrian adopted style burial.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...an-case/page40?p=665585&viewfull=1#post665585

 

[PaleoRevenge]

These maps have been posted before, but their accuracy is spot on, compare with abstract summary.

How spot on is the caption? "Central Illyrian tribes move into the Lakes region and Macedonia = 800 BC and cause a ruler change and drop in prosperity". There is also a drop in population according to the abstract paper.

 

[Hawk]

Found this article from Bucharest Congress from 1996, actually i am quite impressed by the writing, but i guess it's just a mix of the work of all archaeologists.

Some notes:

The onomastics of the Balkan ethnic communities has been the subject of
many researches. The names in Dardania, Paeonia, Macedonia and on Biygian
territory that have been analyzed are found to have belonged to the inhabitants
autochthonous to the area and cannot be unreservedly classified as Illyrian or
Thracian, as was frequently done in the past Furthermore, these names are also
quite frequent in Asia Minor and most of them are regarded as local Phrygian
names. It is also interesting to point that some of these autochthonous names also
appear in Albanian soil, though not further north than Dyrrachium, but are
unknown to the north of Lisos. 1

The last waves of Indo-European migrations during the Early Bronze Age
(2100-1800/1700 B.C.) brought to the Balkans kindred populations having the
same custom of tumuli burials.

They brought to these areas transhumant shephards that preferred the
mountainous terrains of the central, western and south-western Balkans. The finds
from the few settlements dating from this period also indicate that these nomadic
people did not stay long in one place. All this leads to the conclusion that at the
very beginning of the Early Bronze Age, the territories from the Carpathian
Mountains to the Adriatic Sea and Pelagonia had many features in common. This
wide geographical area also encompassed the districts of the central Balkans, the
Morava and, probably, the Vardar valleys. All these districts belonged to the
Balkan-Dan ubian complex, 17 in which tumuli burials were prevalent in Belotic-
Bela Crkva, the middle and southern Adriatic coast to the river Shkumbi (Pazhok),
and, occasionally, in Romania-Muntenia. In addition, a wide section of this
complex covering the central Balkans, Pelagonia and south-eastern Albania
(Bubanj Hum III, Armenochori - the Pelagonian group, Maliq Illab) is
characterized by many finds of two-handled vessels. On the other hand, we have
no knowledge of the burial customs of these cultural groups. Their material culture
differs from that of the Cetina group, which is akin to that of Belotic-Bela Crkva.
Their transhumant way of life brought the various communities in close contact
with each other, as can be seen in the grave 181 from tumulus I in Bare. 18

Interesting perspective.

Tumuli burials were quite common in both northern and southern Albania in
the previous and this chronological period. This does not necessarily indicate that
the same ethnic group inhabited this whole area, as tumuli burials was a frequent
custom from the west Balkans to central Greece and Peloponnesus. In the Mali
valley there are occasional finds of swords of the Aegaen type and already in the
1 1th century there were types of swords and javelins, probably as a result of the
penetration of civilizations characterized by burials in flat graves with urns. All
these objects, as well as fluted ware have been found further south, too, though in a
much smaller number than in the north. In the Late Bronze Age and in the
Transitional Period they had certain features that distinguished them from similar
objects in central, south-eastern and southern Albania. During this period, the Mali
valley came under the strong influence of the Southern Adriatic coast cultural
group and the Glasinac complex and one of the most characteristic finds of that
time in these territories are the axes of Dalmato-Albanian type, discovered in
depots often to a hundred. The depot in Torovice near Lest, which had 124 axes
of this type was a very important discovery. 27 In Albania, these finds are most
characteristic for the districts north of Dyrrachium, especially for Lesh and Skodra,
whereas on the territory of the Southern Adriatic coast cultural group they are rather common in Montenegro and Herzegovina. No such finds have been discovered south of Dyrrachium. During the Iron Age IB, north Albania once again
came under the strong influence of the cultures in the north-west Later, in the
developed Iron Age the pottery and the jewellery from the Mati valley very much
resemble the similar finds from the Glasinac complex. They bear a striking
similarity to Glasinac stage IVc. As can be seen, the archeological finds in north
Albania show that this territory kept close contacts with a large area to the north of
central Albania, which is the reason why it has been named Glasinac-Mati
culture. 28

This appearance of flutted-ware/cannellure and flat burials with urns might be coincidence or just cultural influence? Possibly some E-V13 will eventually appear.

During the Early Iron Age IA and IB, the Brygian population inhabited a
large territory, spreading over south-eastern and southern Albania, north-western
Greece, Epirus and Pelagonia, the enclaves in the surrounding regions and those
between the Axius and the Strymon in the east

At this period, the ethnic community of the Bryges developed a significant
material culture with a characteristic production of matt-painted geometric pottery,
jewellery, especially pins with zigzag decorations and weapons.

At the end of the Iron Age I only the last of the large Brygian centres
existed: region of Korea in south eastern Albania, Vitsa in Epirus and Pateli in
north-western Greece, though they were also showing signs of decline of their
pottery production and of the Brygian culture as a whole.

Literary tradition and onomastic remains indicate that at the time of the Iron
Age II and the Early Classical Period the last strongholds of Brygian population
were concentrated east of the river Axius, in south-eastern Albania, north-west
Greece, Epirus and Pelagonia. Historical sources refer to Pelagonia as a territory
inhabited by Bryges, although in the earlier times it must have been populated by
other populations, too, as the pottery and metal finds and the different modes of
burial show. At the end of Iron Age I and during the Iron Age II, the Bryges on the
Balkans generally lived in enclaves surrounded by Illyrians, Macedonians, Epirots
and Paeonians. Dense concentration of Bryges existed only in south-eastern
Albania. It was at this time, perhaps, that the Bryges buried their dead in the
tumulus in Kuc i Zi I, which contained the last examples of matt-painted geometric

83



pottery. The graves in Kuc i Zi also had some other important and interesting
finds, such as weapons and jewellery.

The differences in the material culture and in the burial customs between
southern and south-eastern Albania, on the one hand, and the territory north of the
Shkumbi to Glasinac, on the other, point to the tact that these districts were
inhabited by different populations: Illyrians in the north and Bryges in the south.
However, after the 8th and, particularly, in the 7th and 6th centuries, these
differences dwindled, primarily, due to the Illyrization of the whole territory, but
also to the increasing Hellenization of the larger cities - first in the coastal belt, but
then also deeper inland.

https://archive.org/stream/Thracian...thInternational/bulgaria_thracology7_djvu.txt

 

[torzio]

These maps have been posted before, but their accuracy is spot on, compare with abstract summary.

How spot on is the caption? "Central Illyrian tribes move into the Lakes region and Macedonia = 800 BC and cause a ruler change and drop in prosperity". There is also a drop in population according to the abstract paper.

the map is weird ............how are the Liburnians not on the coast............maybe they are the Mazaei

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Thanks a lot Hawk, so I think it's fair to say R1b-PF7563 was the main Phrygian haplgroup. To what extent this haplogroup was common among the Doric groups remains to be seen. Messapi are essentially a branch of Dardani(R-Z2103) mixed with a branch of Phrygians from southern Albania.

This appearance of flutted-ware/cannellure and flat burials with urns might be coincidence or just cultural influence? Possibly some E-V13 will eventually appear.

Northern Albania has a very thin population density/capacity, the Glasinac push back likely erased the early E-V13 pioneers, if they even made it. The Illyrian expansion mentioned in the article is part of the over all Glasinac expansion that also occurred against the Zlot group(Triballi) and Dardanians. Given the facts that in the Korca basin this event associated entirely with a R-Z2103 takeover, suggests that the "Illyrians" that took over the lakeland region, were western Brnjica expelled from Prizren-Kukes region by the proper Illyrians.

 

[Hawk]

The paper doesn't mention new migration though, if they say they just bottle-necked could mean that R1b-Z2103 was present down there during Bronze Age.

I would wait for more samples to get a more detailed picture.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

A screenshot of the abstract:

A key event described in the transcript:

1) In 750 BCE, there is a population decline
2) In 750 BCE, a new grave construction occurs
3) In 750 BCE, R-Z2106 becomes the dominant haplogroup.
4) Implication is R-PF7563 was the dominant haplogroup in the prior period and likely sole haplgroup before bronze age collape

These events are in absolute agreement with the events described in old school archeology, around 800 BCE, Illyrians invade Macedonia and lakeland region, Glasinac material appears in graves (graves change), population decreases, the region becomes impoverished. The old matt-painted culture("northwest gemeotric style") material go in fast decline, which makes it impossible for Messappi to be Illyrians, since Illyrians are the ones that put an end to his culture in southern Albania.

BTW this kind of work is impossible in todays free democratic world and would never be allowed to be published in current climate of speech suppression. Nicholas Hammond would have lost his job in a finger snap. There is no doubt what is described in the abstract of the Kamenice study is part of the same larger event described by Hammond. The mere fact that these new rulers are R-Z2106 and that from southern Arc there were two samples(male and female) that showed strong Illyrian-like profile with one being R-CTS1450, than the Dardani Illyrians were R-CTS1450. These people described are none other than the Dardani in the days before they were pushed into Kosovo after their hold of Vardar region was destroyed by the Cimmerian invasions.

The series of events described are:
1) Phrygians dominated the area after Bronze Age collapse, if Phrygians are R-PF7563 folks, they were centered in southern Albania and adjacent regions and benefited from channeled ware devastation of the Vardar region and took over the power vacum. Paeonians are described as expanding from Strymon valley taking advantage of the same power vacuum, this is interesting that Strymon valley is their stronghold at least since LBA collapse.
2) Illyrians expand around 800 BCE and devastate the Phrygians.
3) Around 650 BCE Cimmerians with Thracian allies move into Vardar region and destroy the Illyrians(the remnants retreat to Kosovo/Dardania and consolidate from there. Their decendents continued the struggle for the Vardar region.
4) Macedonians this time take advantage of the power vacuum and expand northwards, Thracians settle a portion of Vardar region and Paeonians recover their lost grounds.


I did some basic comparisons on the very limited samples so far. The Illyrians profiles from south-eastern north Macedonia.

The ancient R-PF7562/3 samples to date. Alb mdv sample is clearly LBA, maybe even MBA.

PCA graph and expected clusters in the Alb paper.

 

[Johane Derite]

A screenshot of the abstract:

A key event described in the transcript:

1) In 750 BCE, there is a population decline
2) In 750 BCE, a new grave construction occurs
3) In 750 BCE, R-Z2106 becomes the dominant haplogroup.
4) Implication is R-PF7563 was the dominant haplogroup in the prior period and likely sole haplgroup before bronze age collape

These events are in absolute agreement with the events described in old school archeology, around 800 BCE, Illyrians invade Macedonia and lakeland region, Glasinac material appears in graves (graves change), population decreases, the region becomes impoverished. The old matt-painted culture("northwest gemeotric style") material go in fast decline, which makes it impossible for Messappi to be Illyrians, since Illyrians are the ones that put an end to his culture in southern Albania.

BTW this kind of work is impossible todays free democratic world and would never be allowed to be published in today's climate of speech suppression. Nicholas Hammond would have lost his job in a finger snap. There is no doubt what is described in the abstract of the Kamenice study is part of the same larger event described by Hammond. The mere fact that these new rulers are R-Z2106 and that from southern Arc there were two samples(male and female) that showed strong Illyrian-like profile with one being R-CTS1450, than the Dardani Illyrians were R-CTS1450. These people described are none other than the Dardani in the days before they were pushed into Kosovo after their hold of Vardar region was destroyed by the Cimmerian invasions.

The series of events described are:
1) Phrygians dominated the area after Bronze Age collapse, if Phrygians are R-PF7563 folks, they were centered in southern Albania and adjacent regions and benefited from channeled ware devastation of the Vardar region and took over the power vacum. Paeonians are described as expanding from Strymon valley taking advantage of the same power vacuum, this is interesting that Strymon valley is their stronghold at least since LBA collapse.
2) Illyrians expand around 800 BCE and devastate the Phrygians.
3) Around 650 BCE Cimmerians with Thracian allies move into Vardar region and destroy the Illyrians(the remnants retreat to Kosovo/Dardania and consolidate from there. Their decendents continued the struggle for the Vardar region.
4) Macedonians this time take advantage of the power vacuum and expand northwards, Thracians settle a portion of Vardar region and Paeonians recover their lost grounds.


I did some basic comparisons on the very limited samples so far. The Illyrians profiles from south-eastern north Macedonia.

The ancient R-PF7562/3 samples to date. Alb mdv sample is clearly LBA, maybe even MBA.

PCA graph and expected clusters in the Alb paper.

Great post, something to possibly support this is also the earliest king of the Taulanti called "Galabrus" which has a clear parallel with the Dardani tribe Galabroi. Galabrus is said to have invaded Macedonia in the 7th century BC:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaurus

 

[mount123]

The paper doesn't mention new migration though, if they say they just bottle-necked could mean that R1b-Z2103 was present down there during Bronze Age.

I would wait for more samples to get a more detailed picture.

Correct. Besides even innovations, alterations or simply evolvement of material culture, too, don't have to coincide with a new migration wave.

Alb mdv sample is clearly LBA, maybe even MBA.

In the supplementary info/table of the Southern Arc papers it is stated that the Medieval Albanian sample I13834 is radiocarbondated.

As for the rest, R1b-Z2103>(CTS1450) has been found in North Macedonia from North to South with the oldest sample dating to the Bronze Age. I would suggest you to read about what archeologists active in the area write about the Bronze Age Ulanci group.

 

[Hawk]

A screenshot of the abstract:

A key event described in the transcript:

1) In 750 BCE, there is a population decline
2) In 750 BCE, a new grave construction occurs
3) In 750 BCE, R-Z2106 becomes the dominant haplogroup.
4) Implication is R-PF7563 was the dominant haplogroup in the prior period and likely sole haplgroup before bronze age collape

These events are in absolute agreement with the events described in old school archeology, around 800 BCE, Illyrians invade Macedonia and lakeland region, Glasinac material appears in graves (graves change), population decreases, the region becomes impoverished. The old matt-painted culture("northwest gemeotric style") material go in fast decline, which makes it impossible for Messappi to be Illyrians, since Illyrians are the ones that put an end to his culture in southern Albania.

BTW this kind of work is impossible in todays free democratic world and would never be allowed to be published in current climate of speech suppression. Nicholas Hammond would have lost his job in a finger snap. There is no doubt what is described in the abstract of the Kamenice study is part of the same larger event described by Hammond. The mere fact that these new rulers are R-Z2106 and that from southern Arc there were two samples(male and female) that showed strong Illyrian-like profile with one being R-CTS1450, than the Dardani Illyrians were R-CTS1450. These people described are none other than the Dardani in the days before they were pushed into Kosovo after their hold of Vardar region was destroyed by the Cimmerian invasions.

The series of events described are:
1) Phrygians dominated the area after Bronze Age collapse, if Phrygians are R-PF7563 folks, they were centered in southern Albania and adjacent regions and benefited from channeled ware devastation of the Vardar region and took over the power vacum. Paeonians are described as expanding from Strymon valley taking advantage of the same power vacuum, this is interesting that Strymon valley is their stronghold at least since LBA collapse.
2) Illyrians expand around 800 BCE and devastate the Phrygians.
3) Around 650 BCE Cimmerians with Thracian allies move into Vardar region and destroy the Illyrians(the remnants retreat to Kosovo/Dardania and consolidate from there. Their decendents continued the struggle for the Vardar region.
4) Macedonians this time take advantage of the power vacuum and expand northwards, Thracians settle a portion of Vardar region and Paeonians recover their lost grounds.


I did some basic comparisons on the very limited samples so far. The Illyrians profiles from south-eastern north Macedonia.

The ancient R-PF7562/3 samples to date. Alb mdv sample is clearly LBA, maybe even MBA.

PCA graph and expected clusters in the Alb paper.

I think that your post should be taken in consideration, but, still, you never know.

On this occasion, special attention is given to the Tomb of the Warriors (Tomb 1) in which 6 warriors were buried together with their complete military armor. The tomb (dimensions: 5.50 x 4.50 m) was built with a row of larger limestone blocks, and after the cremation burial it was filled with amorphous stones and earth, shaping a low mound-like structure. The pyre was set in the central part of the tomb, and around it, embedded and arranged in a specially brought lake sand, were the military attributes: 6 bronze helmets, 11 greaves, and 15 iron spears, with features suggesting some military subordination or simply warriors who have died in a battle being “the Leader and his comrades.”

https://pebasite.wordpress.com/peba-2020/representations-of-power-an-ancient-macedonian-elite/

Maybe the Enchelei burial from Lake Ohrid could resemble Vatin-Brnjica burials more than the preceeding Matt-Painted Ware?

 

[Hawk]

Correct. Besides even innovations, alterations or simply evolvement of material culture, too, don't have to coincide with a new migration wave.

The only way to verify is to sample Bronze Age burials from that area. Then, we can have a precise picture.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

In the supplementary info/table of the Southern Arc papers it is stated that the Medieval Albanian sample I13834 is radiocarbondated.

As for the rest, R1b-Z2103>(CTS1450) has been found in North Macedonia from North to South with the oldest sample dating to the Bronze Age. I would suggest you to read about what archeologists active in the area write about the Bronze Age Ulanci group.

Mount I have always argued for R1b-Z2103>(CTS1450) being centered in the central Balkans, but there is a specific branch that was assimilated into Illyrians during MBA and their decedents invaded Macedonia in Iron Age. There is no contradiction here, they expanded at the expense Paeoni who also are under R1b-Z2103>(CTS1450) and not Illyrian. You should test out the G25 values yourself, they are clearly Illyrian, and not related to the MKD LBA sample, autosomal profile is different.

For the carbondating, we have been this over a million times. Plenty of people understood my finding, the Greeks on anthro did as well.

I doubt it's even water lake effect, a member of the Alb team must have blatantly tempered with the data. They did not publish the IBD data on the recent paper that came out for this specific sample like they did with the other Alb samples, that is sus, I don't think the sample has bad coverage.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The only way to verify is to sample Bronze Age burials from that area. Then, we can have a precise picture.

The Kamenica paper will provide some insight, the samples range from MBA through IA.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Correct. Besides even innovations, alterations or simply evolvement of material culture, too, don't have to coincide with a new migration wave.

Come on man, don't resort to those kind of arguments. You're better than Brumi and his kind.

I see it differently. Culture is aesthetics, which are an expression of a people. How a people/tribe like to decorate their pots, build their homes is an expression of the group/themselves. People are not empty robots, they have instincts.

And people/groups have genes. Autosomal values are not just meaningless coordinates on a PCA graph, they identify a people.