Southern Italian Ethnogenesis (My theory)

One could say Southern Italians mostly resemble Minoans, which makes sense since they are modeled as most Minoan-like terms of autosomal DNA

CeGWHTKl.jpg


m8gbnTJl.png
 
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Jovialis said:
One could say Southern Italians mostly resemble Minoans, which makes sense since they are modeled as most Minoan-like terms of autosomal DNA

CeGWHTKl.jpg


m8gbnTJl.png
Click to expand...

I also think this is the baseline for the Mediterranean phenotype, as it is the baseline for the Mediterranean genetic continuum.
 
"We modeled Bronze Age Sicilians as having a local source of ancestry represented by Sicily_MN, 719 and then added combinations of Bell Beaker culture associated populations from the west (as we
720 find Iberia-specific Y chromosome haplogroup R1b1a1a2a1a2a1 (Z195) in Early Bronze Age Sicily), 721 namely Iberia and France (Bell_Beaker_Iberia_highsteppe, France_Bell_Beaker). We also use
722 Minoan_Lassithi as a proxy for Iranian-related ancestry"
 
kingjohn said:
It is a natufian skull from eynan

https://***********/Sulkalmakh/status/1492151135062405125

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ʿAin_Mallaha

Wish i had a time machine to check
Either way it is a nice try
The clay funeral masks belong to ppnb period
Later in time
Click to expand...

I'm quite aware. It's not, however, 100% Natufian people who moved into Anatolia and thence into Europe.

It's Neolithic people from the Levant, who didn't look anything like that.

So, once again, the point is a FAIL.
 
Angela said:
I'm quite aware. It's not, however, 100% Natufian people who moved into Anatolia and thence into Europe.

It's Neolithic people from the Levant, who didn't look anything like that.

So, once again, the point is a FAIL.
Click to expand...

i know
i never claim southern italian have natufian ancestery
how do you think natufians and ppnb look like ?
the natufian reconstruction is based on his skull
 
kingjohn said:
i know
i never claim southern italian have natufian ancestery
how do you think natufians and ppnb look like ?
the natufian reconstruction is based on his skull
Click to expand...

Any reconstruction of skulls is to some extent subjective. Surely you know that. If I'm going to give any credence to them whatsoever it's going to be to reconstructions by anthropologists using the latest in high tech equipment, not God knows who, with God knows what training or agendas.

Reconstruction of a skull from Jericho 9500 years ago. THESE are the people who would have spread their ancestry throughout much of Western Eurasia.

3B37A53A00000578-0-image-a-21_1481304455426.jpg


Could there be some subjectivity here too? Of course.

Not that far from the masks, though...
bd263edd45637ba15c5c10f21bf48764.png



If I'm looking at a death mask, there may be come distortion, but it's going to be closer.

Luckily, we have photographs of Abraham Lincoln from shortly before he died. I don't think there's any doubt it's close

lincolndeathmask-1024x676.jpg


"Your" reconstruction looks more like that of someone who has quite a bit of Iran Neo/CHG.
 
einan skull that been used

https://i.imgur.com/KGTu62m.png




p.s
personally for me i fail to see iran neolithic
infact i see some resemblence to tarfolat who was e-m78
there is 90% chance this einan dude was e-z830
so e-m35 as coomon ancestor of both maybe the source for some resemblence
also the person in this site explain to me there methods
just because they are eastern european doesn't mean there reconstruction is wrong
buttom line since this thread is about southern italian i am not going to argue about this subject anymore
we can agree to disagree
 
Are Southern Italians more like Minoans than modern Greeks are?
 
Poxy said:
Are Southern Italians more like Minoans than modern Greeks are?
Click to expand...
Continental Greeks have a bit of Slavic admixture from middle ages, so they are a bit more shifted to Eastern/Central Europe than their Bronze/Iron age ancestors.
Southern Italy, on the other hand, lacks this slavic component (although it has an italic component), so it's a bit more similar to the Aegean bronze / Iron age.
At least, this is the conclusion drawn from Raveane (2022).
 
Thanks for the reply. I didn't know that the mainland Greeks had a Slavic admixture.
 
Angela said:
Ah, yes, it's like the good old dna forums days. "Er Monezza", like Sickelliot of yore, appropriates the insights I provide for his own, i.e. the Piedmont sample more likely being mountain Liguria. If he were writing a paper, that would be plagiarism.
Click to expand...

Anyone can come to that conclusion simply by looking at their results on Dodecad K12b and Eurogenes K13.

Dodecad K12b

Code: 
Italian_Piedmont,5.679,0.055,1.698,0.117,36.108,23.769,0.195,0.073,7.48,0.18,24.573,0.073

Distance to:    Italian_Piedmont
[B][COLOR=#FF0000]1.98122588    Italian_Emilia
2.34366295    Italian_Liguria[/COLOR][/B]
2.46450320    Italian_Tuscany
4.29354818    Italian_Veneto
4.35161533    Italian_Piedmont
4.38744527    Italian_Romagna
4.50760868    Italian_Lombardy
6.21387287    Italian_Umbria
6.40459179    Italian_Friuli_VG
7.48775507    French_Corsica
7.73789739    Italian_Lazio
7.76009430    Swiss_Italian
7.88513589    Italian_Marche
8.23688873    Italian_Trentino
8.60051371    Albanian_Kosovo
9.07619502    Macedonian_Vardar
9.22713152    Macedonian_South
9.93298928    Greek_Thessaly

Eurogenes K13

Code: 
Italian_Piedmont,30.22,11.88,23.097,8.821,21.897,2.394,0.251,0.468,0.132,0.253,0.333,0.204,0.055

Distance to:    Italian_Piedmont
[B][COLOR=#FF0000]1.77784786    Italian_Emilia
2.18321850    Italian_Liguria[/COLOR][/B]
3.52800836    Italian_Tuscany
5.05772508    Italian_Romagna
5.30205649    Italian_Lombardy
5.42756695    Italian_Veneto
6.05934015    Italian_Umbria
6.27287040    Italian_Piedmont
7.07910468    Italian_Friuli
7.10248992    Italian_Lazio
7.12985715    Italian_Marche
7.43742583    French_Provence_outlier
7.70292302    French_Corsica
8.75581767    Albanian_Catholic_Mirdite
8.95151624    Italian_Trentino
9.86714564    Swiss_Italian
9.94670111    Albanian_Kosovo

Angela said:
One might ask, what's the big deal then? The big deal is the virulent anti-Semitism of people like Davidski and his Slavophile Nazi followers on Eurogenes. His hatred of the Jews spreads to all Levantines, and he is desperate to wall off "his" part of Europe from the contagion, and limit it to Italy, perhaps Greece and other parts of Southern Europe. He is aided, bizarrely enough, by a Jewish (or part Jewish) poster, or so he claims, on anthrogenica who wants Italians to be part of the "tribe", or "wanna be" Jews, (a group not uncommon in the U.S., where Jews have a very high status for understandable reasons) followers of the sadly misinformed "Calabrian rabbi", or a sad young man who hates Jews because of his obsession with the Palestinian cause, and has targeted them at university, and for family reasons I will not describe, because even he is deserving of some consideration, even though he extends none to others, wants to find Jewish ancestry in Southern Italians.
Click to expand...

O_o
 
^^I can't even say "Nice Try".

I pointed that out based on my knowledge of Italian history, the linguistics of the area etc. I didn't need to use calculators, although I did run the data in order to back it up.

When "I" said it, none of you clowns at anthrogenica had even given it a thought. As always, you guys appropriated "MY" knowledge and insight without a backward glance.

Oh, on another thread we're talking about the Etruscans. Did you and your buddies on anthrogenica and theapricity and all the other cesspits admit you were wrong yet? Oh, the frescos which I was told PROVED they were recently arrived Near Easterners, the linguistic analysis by the wanna be linguist etc. It went on and on. Who cared about the archaeology, the history etc. etc. Who needed to read the more than 1000 pages of the compendium on the Etruscans?

As I've said before, once a liar and thief, always a liar and thief.
 
Angela said:
^^I can't even say "Nice Try".

I pointed that out based on my knowledge of Italian history, the linguistics of the area etc. I didn't need to use calculators, although I did run the data in order to back it up.
Click to expand...

Actually, the notion that the Piedmontese samples were from Val Borbera I got from Pax Augusta who has been talking about it since 2016. But again, I don't care who said it first, it's not relevant to me.

Angela said:
When "I" said it, none of you clowns at anthrogenica had even given it a thought. As always, you guys appropriated "MY" knowledge and insight without a backward glance.
Click to expand...

Well... sorry to disappoint you, but no one gives a flying **** what you think or about your brilliant insights.

Angela said:
Oh, on another thread we're talking about the Etruscans. Did you and your buddies on anthrogenica and theapricity and all the other cesspits admit you were wrong yet? Oh, the frescos which I was told PROVED they were recently arrived Near Easterners, the linguistic analysis by the wanna be linguist etc. It went on and on. Who cared about the archaeology, the history etc. etc. Who needed to read the more than 1000 pages of the compendium on the Etruscans?

As I've said before, once a liar and thief, always a liar and thief.
Click to expand...

Great, you accuse people without even knowing them. First I was a sockpuppet of Sikeliot, then one who used a nickname to hide his ethnicity, then a thief of scientific discoveries and a liar, now it comes out that I supported the Anatolian theory for the origin of the Etruscan people.

FYI, I never supported it, even before we actually had their genomes I always claimed they were a local population.
 
Jovialis said:
The Dodecad populations show even less on average, actually:

FYI The fit is better for the south, so the north needs something more.
Click to expand...
Rethinking about the minoritarian anatolian BA component, the fact that it's not evenly widespread could mean it's somewhat more recent: it could represent the signal of a medieval immigration from the Aegean (maybe following an Ottoman expansion), assuming that medieval Aegean could have a bit more Anatolian BA than the Iron and Bronze age Aegean...
 
Francesco said:
Rethinking about the minoritarian anatolian BA component, the fact that it's not evenly widespread could mean it's somewhat more recent: it could represent the signal of a medieval immigration from the Aegean (maybe following an Ottoman expansion), assuming that medieval Aegean could have a bit more Anatolian BA than the Iron and Bronze age Aegean...
Click to expand...

I think that could be a factor.
 
Italians are heterogeneous; this we knew. I think the biggest takeaway for me is that Southern Italians are also heterogeneous within and of themselves; made up of the same stuff at different percentages. Furthermore, the usual genetic-cline by geography is less reliable, and one must look to history of the town or their own individual history.
 
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