Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

torzio said:
Herodian (2nd century A.D.) mentions that Rhizon takes its name from Rizon, son of Cadmus and brother of Illyrius.[2] The earliest mention of Rhizon dates back to the 4th century BCE in the Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax who mentions it as a settlement of the Enchelei.

Enchelei origin is Budva Montenegro...........before they fled to Lake Ohrid
Click to expand...

As per Periplus documentations circa 400BC

 
Riverman said:
By the way, J-L283 didn't bad in the Roman era, better than E-V13 relatively, much better. They seem to have suffered most from the Celts. And we now know why, because just look at all those R-U152 samples from Pannonia and the Balkans! The formerly Pannonian-Illyrian territories suffered the most from the Scythian and La Tene Celtic invasion. In some of the Eastern, E-V13 dominated areas of Fluted Ware/Channelled Ware, the transition was much more smooth with lots of locals being just assimilated or Dacians ending even on top in the Daco-Celtic mixes which emerged. That's really significant in the record, that J-L283 never recovered from the Scythianised and Celtic invasions. It was much more widespread before. The small founder events within the Celtic sphere assimilated branches experienced can't hide that fact. Contrary to that, E-V13 suffered the most under Romans, even way more than under the Germanics and Slavs apparently.

E-V13 profited from La Tene Celts, after a short term downfall, but suffered severely from the Roman conquest
J-L283 did profit from the Romans, after a short term downfall, but suffered severely from the Scythian and Celtic conquests.

These are really quite different, significantly different patterns observable.

The reason is clear, Eastern Hallstatt got practically destroyed by the Scythianised and Celtic groups. In the course of this, a lot of North Illyrian-Pannonian lineages got annihilated or severely cut back.
Click to expand...
If J2b2 did well during Roman times, where’s the J2b2 in South Albania and Northern Greece? It was supposed to boom during the centuries of Roman rule.

Secondly, if J2b2 did well and E-V13 suffered, doesn’t that increase the likelihood that it’s J2b2 that passed down the Illyrian language to the medieval Albanians and not the supposedly E-V13 Thracians. The latter isn’t even up for discussion since Albanian cannot be Thracian.

For some reason, I’m more curious/interested in the J2b2 haplogroup than my own E-V13 so I really hope the new upcoming papers shed some light if not bring definite proof on the Y-DNA spread around Albania, Montenegro, and Greece.
 
According to the same logic, Albanian cannot be equally Illyrian as well. Selective pick-ups are disshonest.

Imo, Albanian/Albanoid is a Central Balkan language.
 
Hawk said:
According to the same logic, Albanian cannot be equally Illyrian as well. Selective pick-ups are disshonest.

Imo, Albanian/Albanoid is a Central Balkan language.
Click to expand...

Keep embarrassing yourself dude. Bit by bit you're being exposed as a clown.

bUt bUt eV13 iS aWeSoME aLBaNIaNs aRe eV13. Manchild.
 
bce posted this on Anthrogenica. Look how closely Albanians plot to Late Iron Age/Antiquity Croatians.

mU4MhVc.png
 
Dushman said:
If J2b2 did well during Roman times, where’s the J2b2 in South Albania and Northern Greece? It was supposed to boom during the centuries of Roman rule.
Click to expand...

Most areas in which people fully adopted the Roman way of living had a demographic standstill or shrinkage. The birth rates were low, the mortality high. So I would assume that people which were not fully integrated into the Western Roman civilisation and lived rather as sort of privileged allies did better, usually, than "Roman citizens" living the "Roman way of life", to put it that way. And I'm just trying to identify and verify patterns, which I then try to interpret. The patterns are there, the interpretation however can be more or less on point.

But going by what I see, I would say that early allies of the Romans in Illyrian world, people which participated in the colonisation of other regions, rather than being cut down or fully assimilated, mgiht be responsible for this relatively well-being in the Roman era. And here user Bruzmi has made some points, like the many Illyrians which did indeed cooperate and settle with Romans. E.g. in former Dacian territories. The Celticised and Dacian people being cut down by the Romans and R-L2 and E-V13 go down, whereas J-L283 is at least stable if not growing slightly. That's no boom, it's just better.
I mean the areas in which E-V13 is supposed to have been concentrated really suffered, relatively speaking, having a more stable development is already "doing well" in the Roman era and under Roman rule, because like I said, many people were not that lucky and had very bad demographics and "growth" (rather shrinkage).

Secondly, if J2b2 did well and E-V13 suffered, doesn’t that increase the likelihood that it’s J2b2 that passed down the Illyrian language to the medieval Albanians and not the supposedly E-V13 Thracians. The latter isn’t even up for discussion since Albanian cannot be Thracian.
Click to expand...

I think E-V13 in the Southern Balkan/Albanians can be divided in 2 or more groups. The main those local since the Early Iron Age vs. those coming in later. And I think a signfiicant portion of E-V13 came in pretty late, probably in Late Antiquity to Early Medieval times. First fleeing from Germanics and Slavs, later coming with them, as an assimilated part especially of the latter.

This doesn't tell us who brought the language, but my gues sis that J-L283 and "old E-V13" was the Proto-Albanians, whereas the newly incoming groups spoke mainly Romance (Vlach-related), but also Germanic and Slavic.

For some reason, I’m more curious/interested in the J2b2 haplogroup than my own E-V13 so I really hope the new upcoming papers shed some light if not bring definite proof on the Y-DNA spread around Albania, Montenegro, and Greece.
Click to expand...

Me too, because the same I said for the Albanians is even more true for the Greeks, which might have experienced not just one but numerous waves of E-V13 coming down. It could have started even before the LBA, but I think the first came in the LBA with Channelled Ware/G?va-related groups, the second with developed Thracians (Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo-Babadag related), then with Germanics and other "Barbarians", after that with Slavs and finally with Vlachs and Albanians.
Without way more data, its impossible to verify one of these waves, the scenario as such, or which subclades belong to which group.

For the Albanians I guess it will be somewhat more straightforward, but the basic problem is the same. Even some J-L283 lineages might have come in late and from the North. Kind of "coming home" after having spread in the Iron Age and Roman era.

I'm no expert for early Albanian and Proto-Albanian theories, not at all, but from what I have seen, there are not too many people or sources which claim that South Albania was always the cradle. Rather not. The Albanian-Vlach argument too can be interpreted two ways, which is something many forget. It don't just mean that the dominant Southern Vlach clans are more likely to have lived to the South, where they were in close contact with Proto-Albanians, it could also mean Proto-Albanians didn't live too far in the South, for having had enough contacts to Southern early Vlachs.
North Albania or even North of Albania is also more likely because of the stronger presence and mixture with Thracians. Because whereever they were, they surely lived at the borderline between Illyrian and Thracian initially, not deeply in Illyrian (or Thracian) territory, without direct and uninterrupted contacts to the other major block.
I think Southern Albania was rather settled by Proto-Albanians secondarily, but that's just my personal opinion, as I just keep saying what I deem likely.

I'm not strongly invested into any of this, its just my personal opinion and impression. Could be right or wrong, only more data will prove it.
 
enter_tain said:
bce posted this on Anthrogenica. Look how closely Albanians plot to Late Iron Age/Antiquity Croatians.

mU4MhVc.png
Click to expand...


so are you saying that Albanians migrated from the Northern Balkans area ?
 
torzio said:
so are you saying that Albanians migrated from the Northern Balkans area ?
Click to expand...

It's not about migrating. It's about bidirectional gene flow. People with the same culture/language will converge towards some degree of homogeneity over time.

If they don't they drift apart and become different ethnicities.
 
Carnimirie said:
Any comments on these new Urbino samples? They seem very specific to Southern Italy
Click to expand...

I would connect the comment on those with the one from Wels. At the moment it looks like Northern-Central Italy was seriously affected by the "Imperial Roman" migration pattern we saw for other places already, which means a shift towards the East Mediterranean, the Levantine spectrum.
The Austrian sample from Wels looks, at the first look, like a more recent mixed person with Northern : Southern ancestry. I think its highly important because its one of the first potential "provincials" of which many might have fled before or migrated with the Germanics into Italy. They might have caused a partial North shift at the end of Antiquity to the Early Medieval times which can't be fully explained by Germanic ancestry proper.

The samples from Hassleben are very interesting too, as they being not buried in the Jastorf Germanic tradition, which was cremation, so they are archaeologically untypical and they are also genetically non-Germanic. The majority looks rather more Southern Celtic, I would guess Hallstatt people or Danubian La Tene Celts - in that direction. Among them R11872 is the Southern outlier - could have "Imperial Roman" ancestry as well in the mix. So either they had some Gallo-Roman/Romance connection or another sort of Southern communication route.
The area was known for being inhabited by independent people of Late Hallstatt, then a transitional/contact zone between Jastorf Germanics and La Tene Celts.
 
I was more interested in this tidbit I gather from Anthrogenica

Ariel90

From the supplementary material:

"T. 68 (R1557) is described (Mercando et al. 1982) as a single earthen grave with an E-W orientation.
The disposition of the bones in the image provided and the indication of the
presence of iron nails along the margins of the grave suggest the presence of a
perishable, possibly wooden, casket. Grave goods included a bronze coin and pottery
fragments. Archaeological indicators place the burials to the last quarter of the 1st
century BC."


Distance to: R1557:R1557
0.02681752 Sicilian_East
0.02930107 Italian_Apulia
0.02952766 Italian_Molise
0.02990920 Italian_Campania
0.03080833 Italian_Basilicata
0.03176894 Italian_Abruzzo
0.03272543 ITA_Tarquinia_EMA
0.03486944 Greek_Crete
0.03515185 Italian_Calabria
0.03546203 Italian_Lazio

J.delajara

What is really interesting, is that this sample is J2-L70, this means that this clade, with a southern Italian profile, was already in Central Italy at least at the end of the Roman Republican period, on a rural context on what Augustus named Regio VI, Umbria et Ager Gallicus Picenus. Northern Marche region was the encounter of Galli Senoni, Italic Tribes ( Umbrians and Picentes) and Siracusan Greeks from Ankon, before the romanization of this region, that occurred after the Sentino Battle, in the context of the Third Samnite War on the III Century BCE.
 
Archetype0ne said:
Exiting. Now I hope the members more read on cultures give context on the sample.
Click to expand...
Hi,
Sorry to bothersome person
But i am realy intrested to know
The autosomal profile of 3742 ( the zadar e-L791 dude)
I see his file here :
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB52852?show=reads
Can you please ask one of the experts in anthrogenica
To have a look at him ?
He could have been many options ; anatolian, a levantine, greek islander, or like the others italian autosomal profile

P.s
Salento if you are also reading this as sn expert
In our forum maybe you can have a look at him
 
enter_tain said:
bce posted this on Anthrogenica. Look how closely Albanians plot to Late Iron Age/Antiquity Croatians.

mU4MhVc.png
Click to expand...


The only Iron Age sample in there is the E-V13 fellow, Zadar Hypo banka and he does not cluster with Albanians. Velic and Novo Selo are Byzantine period (500-570). From this limited sample there is discontinuity among Illyrians. Illyrians being replaced with Greeks/South Italian colonists, it could even be ME mixture which occurred in Rome itself, creating this pull toward the Jewish direction. So much change under Roman rule. But there was no such changes in Albania of course, natural laws don't apply in that land. Albania is a Illyrian reservation isolated from the universe.
 
Last edited:
Carnimirie said:
I was more interested in this tidbit I gather from Anthrogenica

Ariel90

From the supplementary material:

"T. 68 (R1557) is described (Mercando et al. 1982) as a single earthen grave with an E-W orientation.
The disposition of the bones in the image provided and the indication of the
presence of iron nails along the margins of the grave suggest the presence of a
perishable, possibly wooden, casket. Grave goods included a bronze coin and pottery
fragments. Archaeological indicators place the burials to the last quarter of the 1st
century BC."


Distance to: R1557:R1557
0.02681752 Sicilian_East
0.02930107 Italian_Apulia
0.02952766 Italian_Molise
0.02990920 Italian_Campania
0.03080833 Italian_Basilicata
0.03176894 Italian_Abruzzo
0.03272543 ITA_Tarquinia_EMA
0.03486944 Greek_Crete
0.03515185 Italian_Calabria
0.03546203 Italian_Lazio

J.delajara

What is really interesting, is that this sample is J2-L70, this means that this clade, with a southern Italian profile, was already in Central Italy at least at the end of the Roman Republican period, on a rural context on what Augustus named Regio VI, Umbria et Ager Gallicus Picenus. Northern Marche region was the encounter of Galli Senoni, Italic Tribes ( Umbrians and Picentes) and Siracusan Greeks from Ankon, before the romanization of this region, that occurred after the Sentino Battle, in the context of the Third Samnite War on the III Century BCE.
Click to expand...

R437 from Antonio et al 2019 is the most Southern Republican Roman sample from that paper, with distances (Dodecad12B) as follows:

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Mediterranean_C6:R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #31FF00, align: right"]4.78842354[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #35FF00, align: right"]5.16851042[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #43FF00, align: right"]6.53940364[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #46FF00, align: right"]6.86971615[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #49FF00, align: right"]7.19801361[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #57FF00, align: right"]8.48859847[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5AFF00, align: right"]8.83920245[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #62FF00, align: right"]9.63911303[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #65FF00, align: right"]9.86986829[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6AFF00, align: right"]10.34697540[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I am not a member at Anthrogenica, are you able to determine who close R437 is to this new Sample (R1557). I assume those distances in your post are from G25. I have been waiting for more Republican Roman samples to come out to see if there are other R437 like Republicans. It seems based on the results you presented, R437 is likely genetically similar to R1557 autosomally.

Thanks, PT
 
Thanks salento,
Kudos to you:good_job:
The zadar e-L791 dude cluster
With druze autosomally speaking
In k12b calculator
Very cool

R3742_Dod_K12b,6.89,0,0,2.88,5.98,0,0,7.93,26.79,2.90,46.63,0
[TABLE="class: cms_table_distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: center"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: center"]R3742[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6900, align: right"]11.90923591[/TD]
[TD]Druze[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5000, align: right"]12.64722499[/TD]
[TD]Samaritians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4900, align: right"]12.85332253[/TD]
[TD]Palestinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4600, align: right"]12.92713425[/TD]
[TD]Jordanians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4300, align: right"]13.01548309[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3E00, align: right"]13.18265148[/TD]
[TD]Syrians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2400, align: right"]13.93071427[/TD]
[TD]Iraq_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF001A, align: right"]15.77652687[/TD]
[TD]Iranian_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0043, align: right"]16.95678035[/TD]
[TD]Georgia_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF005F, align: right"]17.80389845[/TD]
[TD]Assyrian[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


P.s
Roman empire people moved around
From far away probably was a trader or administrator ;-)
 
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Carnimirie said:
I was more interested in this tidbit I gather from Anthrogenica

Ariel90

From the supplementary material:

"T. 68 (R1557) is described (Mercando et al. 1982) as a single earthen grave with an E-W orientation.
The disposition of the bones in the image provided and the indication of the
presence of iron nails along the margins of the grave suggest the presence of a
perishable, possibly wooden, casket. Grave goods included a bronze coin and pottery
fragments. Archaeological indicators place the burials to the last quarter of the 1st
century BC."


Distance to: R1557:R1557
0.02681752 Sicilian_East
0.02930107 Italian_Apulia
0.02952766 Italian_Molise
0.02990920 Italian_Campania
0.03080833 Italian_Basilicata
0.03176894 Italian_Abruzzo
0.03272543 ITA_Tarquinia_EMA
0.03486944 Greek_Crete
0.03515185 Italian_Calabria
0.03546203 Italian_Lazio

J.delajara

What is really interesting, is that this sample is J2-L70, this means that this clade, with a southern Italian profile, was already in Central Italy at least at the end of the Roman Republican period, on a rural context on what Augustus named Regio VI, Umbria et Ager Gallicus Picenus. Northern Marche region was the encounter of Galli Senoni, Italic Tribes ( Umbrians and Picentes) and Siracusan Greeks from Ankon, before the romanization of this region, that occurred after the Sentino Battle, in the context of the Third Samnite War on the III Century BCE.
Click to expand...

Great to see another ancient J2a-L70 sample in Italy/Balkans (one of my great-grandfathers was J-L70). This seems to be the oldest sample yet.
 
kingjohn said:
Hi,
Sorry to bothersome person
But i am realy intrested to know
The autosomal profile of 3742 ( the zadar e-L791 dude)
I see his file here :
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB52852?show=reads
Can you please ask one of the experts in anthrogenica
To have a look at him ?
He could have been many options ; anatolian, a levantine, greek islander, or like the others italian autosomal profile
P.s
Salento if you are also reading this as sn expert
In our forum maybe you can have a look at him
Click to expand...

Just read this. Will do!
 
Carnimirie said:
I was more interested in this tidbit I gather from Anthrogenica

Ariel90

From the supplementary material:

"T. 68 (R1557) is described (Mercando et al. 1982) as a single earthen grave with an E-W orientation.
The disposition of the bones in the image provided and the indication of the
presence of iron nails along the margins of the grave suggest the presence of a
perishable, possibly wooden, casket. Grave goods included a bronze coin and pottery
fragments. Archaeological indicators place the burials to the last quarter of the 1st
century BC."


Distance to: R1557:R1557
0.02681752 Sicilian_East
0.02930107 Italian_Apulia
0.02952766 Italian_Molise
0.02990920 Italian_Campania
0.03080833 Italian_Basilicata
0.03176894 Italian_Abruzzo
0.03272543 ITA_Tarquinia_EMA
0.03486944 Greek_Crete
0.03515185 Italian_Calabria
0.03546203 Italian_Lazio

J.delajara

What is really interesting, is that this sample is J2-L70, this means that this clade, with a southern Italian profile, was already in Central Italy at least at the end of the Roman Republican period, on a rural context on what Augustus named Regio VI, Umbria et Ager Gallicus Picenus. Northern Marche region was the encounter of Galli Senoni, Italic Tribes ( Umbrians and Picentes) and Siracusan Greeks from Ankon, before the romanization of this region, that occurred after the Sentino Battle, in the context of the Third Samnite War on the III Century BCE.
Click to expand...

I would not be surprised if L70 has been in the Balkans like a thousand years pre Christ.
 
Archetype0ne said:
Just read this. Will do!
Click to expand...


thanks man
i already asked salento
and according to his anlaysis in k12b (R3742 Zadar, Croatia 127 - 228 CE)
 he cluster with druze:great:
so he was levantine autosomally speaking;-)
like the j1 dude from isola sacra rome from this research Italy_IsolaSacra:R11111___AD_201
k13: ,3.91,0,12.07,26.32,42.12,10.73,2.28,0.61,0,0,0.45,1.50,0.02
who also cluster with druze
 
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