Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

By "jumping into conclusions" I meant when he claimed Z638 lineages couldn't have been in Albania before 1200 BCE. He also suggested Z638 had its starting point in Slovenia/North Italy which there is no evidence of. I'm not saying it was from Albania either, but likely somewhere between these two points, and that brings us to the region where we have the two currently oldest Z597>Z2507 samples (I4331 and I26726).
 
There are three major movements which are likely to cause a push factor for J-L283:
- Tumulus culture/Koszider horizon (1.600 BC, caused major dents for both J-L283, E-V13 and many other Carpatho-Balkan lineages, some being almost completely annihilated)
- Middle Danubian Urnfield expansion -> Largely from the Middle Danubian Tumulus culture, but they pushed those conservative groups which stuck to inhumation in collective tumuli (classical Illyrians and related people) to the South East
- La Tene Celts

J-L283 went down with TC, but up with the Middle Danubian UF, so they either participated in it or got "motivated" to expand successfully to the South and East by their pressure. I think both did happen, participation in Pannonia, "motivated push" in classical Illyria, so J-L283 might have gotten split into more North Western integrated people which adopted cremation and mixed with R-L2 in particular and those staying independent and conservative, keeping collective clan burials etc., which was the main/proper Illyrian group which formed Glasinac-Mati.

Somewhere between 1.600-900 BC I expect them to arrive in and around Albania with lineages that matter. The 1.200-900 BC time frame is just a safer starting point going by the modern data, but of course, ancient DNA always trumps modern.

The picture below is credit of Derite, Matzinger basing his theory on older German linguists is convinced that Illyrian was part of East-Alpine Block language, technically i see it he thinks it might be an eastern spinoff of Bell Beakers somewhere during Early Bronze Age to Middle Bronze Age. If R1b-L51 is to be found more among Pannonians, then to a degree to Illyri proprii dictii i see no conflict on that the R1b-L51 Hugelgraberkultur might be considered the people who brought Illyrian and Illyrian-related dialects on the initial phase, very early. As Gimbutas theorized the Koszider hoard + earlier Glasinac formed the Proto-Illyrians, with the earlier populations not facing any kind of disrepancy. Perhaps they were some small elite and then during Bronze to Iron Age J2b2-L283 profited the most especially considering that the Hugelgraber people were master sword craftsmen.

Things are complicated considering that Matzinger considers Messapian as not related to Illyrian. The core Messapian aDNA can solve this issue. If the Messapians show different Y-DNA patterns from more northern Daunians then we might safely bet on J2b2-L283 was from very early phase, deep in EBA progenitor of Pre/Proto-Illyrian.

FHSHzhVX0AQ-zr-
 
By "jumping into conclusions" I meant when he claimed Z638 lineages couldn't have been in Albania before 1200 BCE. He also suggested Z638 had its starting point in Slovenia/North Italy which there is no hard evidence of. I'm not saying it was from Albania either, but likely somewhere between these two points, and that brings us to the region where we have the two currently oldest J-Z2507+ samples (I4331 and I26726).

The reason I was saying so is not just the YFull modern data, but also the fact that there is a transitional Tumulus Culture/Urnfield into Illyrian sphere, around Slovenia, and the push of R-L2 dominated TF/UF groups from the Upper Danube. Those pushed very hard and brutal into Pannonia and I just see little chances for the local groups, which seem to have adopted many elements from their customs, to have pushed in the opposite direction. So in any case, J-L283 must have been present in and around Slovenia in the MBA I'd say and stayed in place. Probably they just communicated along the routes to the Southern Balkans, but I think rather they expanded. That they expanded against the TC - rather not, because R-L2 grew big time with early TC/Koszider, while J-L283 almost getting annihilated. So they rather recovered during the MBA and expanded just in the LBA on a bigger scale.
 
The picture below is credit of Derite, Matzinger basing his theory on older German linguists is convinced that Illyrian was part of East-Alpine Block language, technically i see it he thinks it might be an eastern spinoff of Bell Beakers somewhere during Early Bronze Age to Middle Bronze Age. If R1b-L51 is to be found more among Pannonians, then to a degree to Illyri proprii dictii i see no conflict on that the R1b-L51 Hugelgraberkultur might be considered the people who brought Illyrian and Illyrian-related dialects on the initial phase, very early. As Gimbutas theorized the Koszider hoard + earlier Glasinac formed the Proto-Illyrians, with the earlier populations not facing any kind of disrepancy. Perhaps they were some small elite and then during Bronze to Iron Age J2b2-L283 profited the most especially considering that the Hugelgraber people were master sword craftsmen.

Things are complicated considering that Matzinger considers Messapian as not related to Illyrian. The core Messapian aDNA can solve this issue. If the Messapians show different Y-DNA patterns from more northern Daunians then we might safely bet on J2b2-L283 was from very early phase, deep in EBA progenitor of Pre/Proto-Illyrian.

"Older" German linguists have a lot of obsolete theories in regards to Illyrian that rightfully turned out wrong. Messapian to this day is not structurally "decoded" and there is absolutely no structural relationship between Illyrian and a postulated "east Bell Beaker spinoff" language. And as far as I can see with the auDNA and parental DNA Illyrians clearly form their own cluster. The obvious diversity of the parental DNA clades totally rules out this "HB/TC" non sense.

Nonetheless I think this topic should be discussed in a more appropriate linguistic thread.
 
Why is J2b2 so scarce in South Albania and Northern Greece?

If J2b2 is to be connected to the actual Illyrian language and ethnos it needs a decent presence North of the Ancient Makedonians and Epirotes.

From what I’ve seen/read so far, even modern J2b2 in South Albania is from a more Northern origin and that of Greece is mostly from Arvanites (maybe Vlachs too, I don’t know).

If there’s no ancient J2b2 around Northern modern Greece then J2b2 is just an “Illyric”/North-Western Balkan haplogroup, not the actual early Illyrian that the Greeks encountered or the later Illyrii proprie dicti.

In that case, the so-called Northern Illyrians need another name, or to be simply called North Dalmatians, Pannonians, Liburnians, and so on.

We’re confusing people and even each other if we don’t first find a consensus on the Illyrian name.

We need to follow the example of the Italic people here, they’re all Italic but some are Latin, Oscan, Umbrian, Lucanian, while Etruscans and Messapians for instance lived also in Italy but we don’t call them Italic linguistically.

All of this J2b2-Illyrian and E-V13-Thracian is too simplistic and misleading.

J2b2 seems to be mostly associated with the tribes that participated in the Great Illyrian Revolt and got nearly annihilated by the Romans as well as resettled in other regions (like those in Dacia).
 
By "jumping into conclusions" I meant when he claimed Z638 lineages couldn't have been in Albania before 1200 BCE. He also suggested Z638 had its starting point in Slovenia/North Italy which there is no evidence of. I'm not saying it was from Albania either, but likely somewhere between these two points, and that brings us to the region where we have the two currently oldest Z597>Z2507 samples (I4331 and I26726).

Exactly. The region between those two samples will definitely as the presence of the MBA Dalmatian culture in question is already archeologically attested. Add to that that we even have Z638+ BA presence on the West Adriatic why could it not be in Albania too? Oh wait sure there was the leaked MBA J2b-L283 presence in North Albania, well...
 
Why is J2b2 so scarce in South Albania and Northern Greece?

If J2b2 is to be connected to the actual Illyrian language and ethnos it needs a decent presence North of the Ancient Makedonians and Epirotes.

From what I’ve seen/read so far, even modern J2b2 in South Albania is from a more Northern origin and that of Greece is mostly from Arvanites (maybe Vlachs too, I don’t know).

If there’s no ancient J2b2 around Northern modern Greece then J2b2 is just an “Illyric”/North-Western Balkan haplogroup, not the actual early Illyrian that the Greeks encountered or the later Illyrii proprie dicti.

In that case, the so-called Northern Illyrians need another name, or to be simply called North Dalmatians, Pannonians, Liburnians, and so on.

We’re confusing people and even each other if we don’t first find a consensus on the Illyrian name.

We need to follow the example of the Italic people here, they’re all Italic but some are Latin, Oscan, Umbrian, Lucanian, while Etruscans and Messapians for instance lived also in Italy but we don’t call them Italic linguistically.

All of this J2b2-Illyrian and E-V13-Thracian is too simplistic and misleading.

J2b2 seems to be mostly associated with the tribes that participated in the Great Illyrian Revolt and got nearly annihilated by the Romans as well as resettled in other regions (like those in Dacia).

The block is large and well-documented enough to call it Illyrians. If those samples were no actual Illyrians, who was? They had the same artefacts, the same burial rite, even close contacts between the regions from Slovenia to Montenegro-Albania.

a) Southern Albania was not Illyrian for the most time
b) Even Albania as such being an area which was "Illyrianised", conquered and settled by Illyrians coming from the relative North west.

Look at this map, for example:
1*SwPgJW6QeLSssbyovfqfIg.jpeg


We now have samples from most regions covered on this map and they all yielded J-L283. That's clearly what's connecting the Illyrian sphere, while other lineages are more regional and probably acquired from other people. The whole Eastern sphere on this map was initially settled by cremating groups related to Channelled Ware/G?va in the wider sense, before there was Illyrian adstrates and replacement events.

Take for example these three groups, thorugh which Channelled Ware marched South in the LBA, all three are clearly non-Illyrian:

fogur6E.png




https://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576 0x002debf3.pdf

The Illyrians very clearly came, in any case, from the West of that zone and encountered new people when coming down.
 
Exactly. The region between those two samples will definitely as the presence of the MBA Dalmatian culture in question is already archeologically attested. Add to that that we even have Z638+ BA presence on the West Adriatic why could it not be in Albania too? Oh wait sure there was the leaked MBA J2b-L283 presence in North Albania, well...

The question is also, considering the massive dent J-L283 had in the early Tumulus culture/Koszider horizon phase, from which region and groups it did recover and retake ground.
Like we might, for other lineages as well, with higher resolution samples see one day that many finds represent dead ends and the real big founders from which most moderns descent from lived elsewhere. Like we had J-L283 in Maros too, hadn't we? But I really doubt this was the big success for the lineage, considering how it ended and got largely replaced. Because many of the other lineages found there disappeared as well or got seriously reduced.
 
I think earlier J-L283 clades were probably somewhere in between of East Alps - North Balkans (take for example J-YP91). We also have that J-Z615* in EBA Maros Culture (Mokrin).

For the downstream J-Z597 branch (which is the most prolific J-L283 branch), current aDNA samples and modern distribution suggest it established itself in Western Balkans by Middle Bronze Age. But anyway, we might be derailing this thread with too much J-L283 :)
 
Considering most samples being found so far being in plane regions : Pannonia/Croatia/Serbia I find 0 evidence for East Alp origin, if anything East Alps would be a refugia rather than a place that would allow for the diversification we see among BA Illyrian J2b.

Considering the Maros samples and the context of the J2b burial , as well as the autosomal and cultural ties of Maros, as well as the fact that it was z2103 it was found with rather than R-L2 I find it disingenuous if not straight up running for the hills after one theory to explain proto Illyrians as L283 fails.

Just check how many of the ancient samples of L283 were found in tumuli with grave goods and their social status, I know from having kept up, but some people seem to forget, why would L283 need a R-L2 elite to give them the language?

Sometimes I swear people are really obsessed with these master slave dialectics.

Also, peoples obsession with Matzinger reminds me of journalistic sensationalism from Balkan Insight:
https://balkaninsight.com/2011/03/25/austrian-scholars-leave-albania-lost-for-words/
But we are no longer in 2011, God forbid you people check the shit that was going around on fora back then. And even Matzinger himself contradicted the article later iirc saying it was misconstrued. Yet here we have people still trying really hard.
 
But if someone has evidence for Eastern Alps origin I am willing to look into it. Just keep in mind east of the Alps and Eastern Alps are two very different things, both as geographical regions, ecosystems as well as potential lifestyle 4K bp.
 
That's what Gimbutas was thinking, from where did she grab the idea Glasinac had Koszider hoard objects?!

GPYoepo.png


The Hugelgraberkultur/Tumulus MBA expansion was a massive event, wouldn't be surprised if they were responsible for both Illyrian and Thracian languages(though Thracian has equal chances to be derived from CWC/Nitra R1a people) considering how far away from proper Greco-Armenian (Yamnaya R1b-Z2103) they are classified based on personal names, toponyms, hydronyms etc, etc, etc.

I am considering options here, not stamping theories. Of course chances i am wrong on options are still there, but probability-wise they are valid.

We can take the Etruscans as example, speaking a Neolithic Farmer language yet having ~50-70% R1b Bell Beaker lineages, modern Basques as well etc, etc....

And, no worries about off-topic, no one is active in this thread anyway.
 
The block is large and well-documented enough to call it Illyrians. If those samples were no actual Illyrians, who was? They had the same artefacts, the same burial rite, even close contacts between the regions from Slovenia to Montenegro-Albania.

a) Southern Albania was not Illyrian for the most time
b) Even Albania as such being an area which was "Illyrianised", conquered and settled by Illyrians coming from the relative North west.

Look at this map, for example:
1*SwPgJW6QeLSssbyovfqfIg.jpeg


We now have samples from most regions covered on this map and they all yielded J-L283. That's clearly what's connecting the Illyrian sphere, while other lineages are more regional and probably acquired from other people. The whole Eastern sphere on this map was initially settled by cremating groups related to Channelled Ware/G�va in the wider sense, before there was Illyrian adstrates and replacement events.

Take for example these three groups, thorugh which Channelled Ware marched South in the LBA, all three are clearly non-Illyrian:

fogur6E.png




https://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576 0x002debf3.pdf

The Illyrians very clearly came, in any case, from the West of that zone and encountered new people when coming down.
Historical Illyrians reached as far South as Aetolia and even Boiotia. Careful sensitive readers, I’m not saying they made up the majority or replaced anyone else, simply reached.

These early Illyrians that far South could not have been simply Illyrianised people. They were the reason everyone else up North was called Illyrian, just like the case where Romans couldn’t distinguish various later called Germanic tribes and called everyone Germans.

We already have a decent study that separates these Illyric/West Balkan people into 4-5 groups. The group that deserves the name Illyrian is Southern one, the proprie dicti, and Western Dardanians.

If we don’t have ancient J2b2 in the Epirus and Makedonia or simply areas adjacent to the 2, then the historic Illyrians Illyrianised J2b2, not the other way around.

None of these is proven, so I’d not rush and connect y-dna with Iron Age/antiquity populations.
 
Historical Illyrians reached as far South as Aetolia and even Boiotia. Careful sensitive readers, I’m not saying they made up the majority or replaced anyone else, simply reached.

These early Illyrians that far South could not have been simply Illyrianised people. They were the reason everyone else up North was called Illyrian, just like the case where Romans couldn’t distinguish various later called Germanic tribes and called everyone Germans.

We already have a decent study that separates these Illyric/West Balkan people into 4-5 groups. The group that deserves the name Illyrian is Southern one, the proprie dicti, and Western Dardanians.

If we don’t have ancient J2b2 in the Epirus and Makedonia or simply areas adjacent to the 2, then the historic Illyrians Illyrianised J2b2, not the other way around.

None of these is proven, so I’d not rush and connect y-dna with Iron Age/antiquity populations.

That's not possible for various reasons, i think Channeled-Ware people pushed into Albania during LBA then the Glasinac-Mat pushed during EIA-MIA and Illyrianizing the region. Like the myth says Enchelei were attacked by Northern Illyrian tribes, could be their power diminished because of Glasinac-Mat incursions.

The Enchelei burial tradition is surprisingly different from core Illyrians the inhumating groups for which various archaeologists have attested (would be strange if they are wrong).

Representations of Power – an ancient Macedonian Elite?

Pazko Kuzman

Enheleian Tibal Aristocracy from Lychnis. Archaic Tomb of Warriors from Gorna Porta in Ohrid

The discovery of the “Tombs of the Princes” in the Lychnidos area (“Trebeništa” 1918, 1930–1934 and Gorna Porta (Upper Gate) Ohrid, 2002) opened new view points in archaeological science (“Trebeništa” 1918), especially with the appearance of the golden ritual masks, with the same function a thousand years after the Mycenaean ones (Schliemann, 1876) and the archaeological discoveries at Gorna Porta-Ohrid confirming the fact that “Trebeništa” is not an exception in Lychnis. The archaic tomb constructions from the site Zabraneta Ledinka (Forbidden Meadow) at Gorna Porta offer valuable data on the funerary and eschatological beliefs and rituals of the people from the richer social layers who lived in this area.On this occasion, special attention is given to the Tomb of the Warriors (Tomb 1) in which 6 warriors were buried together with their complete military armor. The tomb (dimensions: 5.50 x 4.50 m) was built with a row of larger limestone blocks, and after the cremation burial it was filled with amorphous stones and earth, shaping a low mound-like structure. The pyre was set in the central part of the tomb, and around it, embedded and arranged in a specially brought lake sand, were the military attributes: 6 bronze helmets, 11 greaves, and 15 iron spears, with features suggesting some military subordination or simply warriors who have died in a battle being “the Leader and his comrades.”The tomb represents an initial base for discussions that would contribute to the further shedding of light about the individual “princes’ tombs” of the Trebeništa necropolis that are still insufficiently “illuminated”. This tomb construction is in close proximity to two more Late Archaic tombs: one with a cremated deceased person (Tomb 132) and the other with an inhumed deceased person – a child (Tomb 167) – a parallel occurrence of inhumation and cremation, which allows discussion for many other significant conclusions, compared to the results determined in other Archaic necropolises with similar funerary ritual approaches and similarly rich offerings discovered in the Balkans, more precisely those located along the old prehistoric Candavian road communication, and the future road from Antiquity – the Via Egnatia (along the Trebeništa necropolis near Ohrid and Petilep-Beranci near Bitola, Archontiko near Pella and Sindos near Thessaloniki).Specifically, given all the circumstances, our Tomb of the Warriors, we can say, represents an archaeological geyser of knowledge of the Enheleian (Engeleian) tribal community which inhabited the area of Lychnis at the time

.
https://pebasite.wordpress.com/peba-2020/representations-of-power-an-ancient-macedonian-elite/

More aDNA will clarify the situation. But the essential differentiation is clear IMO.
 
That's not possible for various reasons, i think Channeled-Ware people pushed into Albania during LBA then the Glasinac-Mat pushed during EIA-MIA and Illyrianizing the region. Like the myth says Enchelei were attacked by Northern Illyrian tribes, could be their power diminished because of Glasinac-Mat incursions.

The Enchelei burial tradition is surprisingly different from core Illyrians the inhumating groups for which various archaeologists have attested (would be strange if they are wrong).



More aDNA will clarify the situation. But the essential differentiation is clear IMO.


Herodian (2nd century A.D.) mentions that Rhizon takes its name from Rizon, son of Cadmus and brother of Illyrius.[2] The earliest mention of Rhizon dates back to the 4th century BCE in the Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax who mentions it as a settlement of the Enchelei.

Enchelei origin is Budva Montenegro...........before they fled to Lake Ohrid
 
Just check how many of the ancient samples of L283 were found in tumuli with grave goods and their social status, I know from having kept up, but some people seem to forget, why would L283 need a R-L2 elite to give them the language?

We see the R-L2 dominated people to be the leading element in the Tumulus culture invasion of Pannonia and the Balkans and they just crushed into the local populations and caused a massive demographic decline in the region. Before you had large settlements and agrarian structures, many finds, high level of production and interaction, then comes the TC peopel with the Koszider horizon and in some regions no people lived any more, in others just half or a one third of the former population.
And most importantly, you see in the data that J-L283 and E-V13 both suffered equally under this onslaught. But soon after, R-L2 and J-L283 go into synchrony and grow rapidly, for the first time together. So two formerly unrelated and hostile people seem to have shared some kind of network and success story. This doesn't tell us that the TC R-L2 people did subjugate or control the local J-L283 people, but some kind of source - receiver relationship was there. And as you say, the TC influenced cultures in the North Western Balkans being clearly related to the wider TC networks.
So the least we have to recognise is that the J-L283 people got integrated into this wider Middle Danubian TC networks. E-V13, and this is noteworthy, was not. On the contrary, you see that R-L2 and J-L283 expand in very early UF, causing yet another dent for E-V13, but then when E-V13 started to gain control, with G?va and Channelled Ware in Late Urnfield, with improved weaponry and first iron weapons, both R-L2 and J-L283 go down against E-V13:

E-V13-J-L283-R-L2-with-comments.jpg

Rather it seems that after that, R-L2 and J-L283, after having a shared fate for some generations, depart again. My guess is because the E-V13 dominated late UF, Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and beginning Hallstatt caused a wedge between, final break between the cremating Northern groups and the inhumation burial proper Illyrian groups.

Before I made those graphs with YFull data, I thought J-L283 might have joined the TC ranks early on, but that's definitely not the case. They almost got annihilated by the TC/R-L2 dominated people, but then they somehow-someway seem to have joined their ranks. Whether they kept their language while doing so or adopted the language of the TC people is impossible to know. But especially in and around Slovenia, there is a fluent-smooth and highly mixed borderzone between R-L2 and J-L283 it seems to me.

Quite typically, the other Balkan lineages didn't recover from this like J-L283, and E-V13 did so on its own, so its a really different, quite peculiar pattern. You can also see, that R-L2 didn't do as well after the Cimmerian invasion/Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, the "native" J-L283 and E-V13 take over.
 
By the way, J-L283 didn't bad in the Roman era, better than E-V13 relatively, much better. They seem to have suffered most from the Celts. And we now know why, because just look at all those R-U152 samples from Pannonia and the Balkans! The formerly Pannonian-Illyrian territories suffered the most from the Scythian and La Tene Celtic invasion. In some of the Eastern, E-V13 dominated areas of Fluted Ware/Channelled Ware, the transition was much more smooth with lots of locals being just assimilated or Dacians ending even on top in the Daco-Celtic mixes which emerged. That's really significant in the record, that J-L283 never recovered from the Scythianised and Celtic invasions. It was much more widespread before. The small founder events within the Celtic sphere assimilated branches experienced can't hide that fact. Contrary to that, E-V13 suffered the most under Romans, even way more than under the Germanics and Slavs apparently.

E-V13 profited from La Tene Celts, after a short term downfall, but suffered severely from the Roman conquest
J-L283 did profit from the Romans, after a short term downfall, but suffered severely from the Scythian and Celtic conquests.

These are really quite different, significantly different patterns observable.

The reason is clear, Eastern Hallstatt got practically destroyed by the Scythianised and Celtic groups. In the course of this, a lot of North Illyrian-Pannonian lineages got annihilated or severely cut back.
 
J-L283 is to the Illyrians what R-Z2103 is to the Yamnaya.

I highly doubt Illyrian peoples during those Bronze Age and Iron Age times referred to one another as “Illyrians”. I doubt the Yamnaya referred to one another as “Yamnaya”. So I wouldn’t fret over how a long dead philosopher or historian may have categorized or defined a particular group of people several millennia ago. Besides, those guys tend to have a horrible track record. Herodotus being a prime example.

These ancient L283 Z597 guys, representing a wide variety of downstream lineages, are randomly popping up all over the place in the western Balkans, Messapia, and now North Africa. I’m not an expert on Illyrians (obviously), but it does look like there was some sort of movement of Illyrians from the western Balkans to southern Italy starting around 1100 BC. It’s in the bones.

Going forward, I’m more interested now in determining which Z597 lineages might be associated with certain Illyrian tribes back in ancient times. Fingers crossed for more Bronze Age/Iron Age samples from the western Balkans and Italy.
 
J-L283 is to the Illyrians what R-Z2103 is to the Yamnaya.

I highly doubt Illyrian peoples during those Bronze Age and Iron Age times referred to one another as “Illyrians”. I doubt the Yamnaya referred to one another as “Yamnaya”. So I wouldn’t fret over how a long dead philosopher or historian may have categorized or defined a particular group of people several millennia ago. Besides, those guys tend to have a horrible track record. Herodotus being a prime example.

These ancient L283 Z597 guys, representing a wide variety of downstream lineages, are randomly popping up all over the place in the western Balkans, Messapia, and now North Africa. I’m not an expert on Illyrians (obviously), but it does look like there was some sort of movement of Illyrians from the western Balkans to southern Italy starting around 1100 BC. It’s in the bones.

Going forward, I’m more interested now in determining which Z597 lineages might be associated with certain Illyrian tribes back in ancient times. Fingers crossed for more Bronze Age/Iron Age samples from the western Balkans and Italy.

If you look at the downward trend when G?va expanded, the reason for the start of the migration over the Adriatic should be pretty clear, its the pressure from the North. Later, they pushed G?va-related groups in the Balkans back, which caused the mixed contact zone.
 
J-L283 is to the Illyrians what R-Z2103 is to the Yamnaya.

I highly doubt Illyrian peoples during those Bronze Age and Iron Age times referred to one another as “Illyrians”. I doubt the Yamnaya referred to one another as “Yamnaya”. So I wouldn’t fret over how a long dead philosopher or historian may have categorized or defined a particular group of people several millennia ago. Besides, those guys tend to have a horrible track record. Herodotus being a prime example.

These ancient L283 Z597 guys, representing a wide variety of downstream lineages, are randomly popping up all over the place in the western Balkans, Messapia, and now North Africa. I’m not an expert on Illyrians (obviously), but it does look like there was some sort of movement of Illyrians from the western Balkans to southern Italy starting around 1100 BC. It’s in the bones.

Going forward, I’m more interested now in determining which Z597 lineages might be associated with certain Illyrian tribes back in ancient times. Fingers crossed for more Bronze Age/Iron Age samples from the western Balkans and Italy.

100% agree. I can't wait to see the samples out of Albania and neighboring regions. Guaranteed J2b-L283/E-V13/R1b will be found together.

It really depends on the subclade as I'm sure by antiquity they were already mixing quite a bit.

J1/T/G/J2a and some rare I2a were probably already present in Proto-Albanians. J1 for instance has some decent diversity within Albanians. Even despite the small sample size.

It's obvious the 3 main lines were likely present in Proto-Albanians at all phases of their development.
 

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