T Haplogroup Caucasus

[Hamed]

Hello.My grandfather was from north caucasus.He moved to Iran when his father was killed by bolsheviks.My haplogroup is also T. (Y3781). One of my teachers at University has a theory about origins of T in the caucasus.I will share it with you,mind you its only a theory.Haplo T is very small and widespread.Perhaps this dna group suffered from mass killing due to war with a bigger nation or perhaps they suffered drought.Haplo T and J lived mainly in the middle east and Iranian plateau.Which group of people in the Iranian plateau was completly destroyed? The answer is the Elamites.The Assyrian kings bragged about how they destroyed the elamites seed and civilization.The assyrians where surely haplogroup J1.Today scientists confirm a strong relationship between elamite language and culture and Dravidian language and culture.As you are aware,many of todays Haplo T are located in dravidian people of India.Sargon the king of Assyria destroyed the Elamite Empire and killed every one he could find.However many escaped North through the safest route: the zagros mountains.Today you will find many haplo T scattered in the zagros mountain and the caucasus mountains.

 

[Sile]

Hello.My grandfather was from north caucasus.He moved to Iran when his father was killed by bolsheviks.My haplogroup is also T. (Y3781). One of my teachers at University has a theory about origins of T in the caucasus.I will share it with you,mind you its only a theory.Haplo T is very small and widespread.Perhaps this dna group suffered from mass killing due to war with a bigger nation or perhaps they suffered drought.Haplo T and J lived mainly in the middle east and Iranian plateau.Which group of people in the Iranian plateau was completly destroyed? The answer is the Elamites.The Assyrian kings bragged about how they destroyed the elamites seed and civilization.The assyrians where surely haplogroup J1.Today scientists confirm a strong relationship between elamite language and culture and Dravidian language and culture.As you are aware,many of todays Haplo T are located in dravidian people of India.Sargon the king of Assyria destroyed the Elamite Empire and killed every one he could find.However many escaped North through the safest route: the zagros mountains.Today you will find many haplo T scattered in the zagros mountain and the caucasus mountains.

Thanks
My theory is that it began as part of the Dahae confedeation of people.....one group heading north in kazaks and other south along the caspian sea via modern gilman province through the armenian plateau and part of the mitanni/Urart group
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurro-Urartian_languages
.
And later a move through Laz and the elamites
.
with an ancient T1a3 found in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdia
It would make sense that between Pamir and the caspian sea is its origin.
.
Btw , I am T1a2-Z19945

 

[Hamed]

Mr Sile,Very Interesting.Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
However, nothern Iranian where Aryans( haplo R-1a).Dahae people built the parthian empire.The great King Cyrus mentionned they where Aryans (haplo R)

 

[Alpenjager]

Mr Sile,Very Interesting.Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
However, nothern Iranian where Aryans( haplo R-1a).Dahae people built the parthian empire.The great King Cyrus mentionned they where Aryans (haplo R)

According to the last Ancient DNA data, there is no proof about something like Aryans = R1a. There are lots of Haplogroups in the root of the Indoeuropean populations (like L and J).

 

[Alpenjager]

Hello.My grandfather was from north caucasus.He moved to Iran when his father was killed by bolsheviks.My haplogroup is also T. (Y3781). One of my teachers at University has a theory about origins of T in the caucasus.I will share it with you,mind you its only a theory.Haplo T is very small and widespread.Perhaps this dna group suffered from mass killing due to war with a bigger nation or perhaps they suffered drought.Haplo T and J lived mainly in the middle east and Iranian plateau.Which group of people in the Iranian plateau was completly destroyed? The answer is the Elamites.The Assyrian kings bragged about how they destroyed the elamites seed and civilization.The assyrians where surely haplogroup J1.Today scientists confirm a strong relationship between elamite language and culture and Dravidian language and culture.As you are aware,many of todays Haplo T are located in dravidian people of India.Sargon the king of Assyria destroyed the Elamite Empire and killed every one he could find.However many escaped North through the safest route: the zagros mountains.Today you will find many haplo T scattered in the zagros mountain and the caucasus mountains.

Well Hamed, are you participating in YFull? Do you know which is your branch downstream of Y3781?

Your teacher doesn't seems know so much about T-M184 haplogroup but anyway Im glad to find some interest. There is nothing about a mass murderer of T people more than suffered by other lineages. Probably the high movility nature of T lineages is the cause this lineage have not been strongly fixed in a specific geographical place.

There are several T branches unrelated in recent times between them inhabiting close regions.
Actually we don't know of any study that find T1a-M70 individuals in the Middle East in Prehistoric times not even in Anatolian nor Caucasus soil. This should mean something after all.

If do you want to make a strong theory, I recommend to you to take a look into my T-M184 phylogenetic tree work here:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Phylogenetic_T-M184_tree.png


About Dravidians: Haplogroup T among them is understudied but anyway is mostly an off shot of a northern migration into South Asia and perhaps other minor migrations like seafearers. Most of Dravidian populations lack of T-M184 lineages.

 

[Hamed]

Thank you for your reply.
What is your opinion on the origin of haplo T in the caucasus and Iranian plateau?
From which region in the world did this haplogroup migrate to the middle-east?Why is it so widespread in low pourcentages comparing to other haplogroups?I will be grateful if you can share your knowledge.

 

[Alpenjager]

Thank you for your reply.
What is your opinion on the origin of haplo T in the caucasus and Iranian plateau?
From which region in the world did this haplogroup migrate to the middle-east?Why is it so widespread in low pourcentages comparing to other haplogroups?I will be grateful if you can share your knowledge.

Haplogroup T in Caucasus and Iranian Plateau have diverse origins because there are several different branches. I recommend you first take a deep look into the link I provided you. You should find some answers and new questions.

Mostly from somewhere around the Black Sea where most probably are found the roots of some ancient T branches like T1a1a-L208.

I answered the third question in my last post, the high movility nature could be a major factor. This also is so graphic in the last link I provided you.

Are you participating in the Haplogroup T project ? https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-K2/default.aspx?section=yresults
And you uploaded your results to YFull? https://www.yfull.com/tree/T/

 

[Salento]

I understand why Hamed thinks that something really unpleasant must have happened to Y T.
What caused the low percentages of T remain an unresolved Mystery, regardless of how widespread it is.

 

[Alpenjager]

I understand why Hamed thinks that something really unpleasant must have happened to Y T.
What caused the low percentages of T is a Mystery, regardless of how widespread it is.
Early isolation, genocide, disease, natural disaster (Atlantis lol), low sperm count??, Women didn’t find them attractive (I don’t think so !!!), famine, ..... all Speculations.

I dont think so. That some lineage Exploided demographically at a relatively recent time, doesn't mean that others that didn't experienced this demographic explosion are the opposite.

Atlantis or Isolation are the most serious possibilities among those you posted and IF real, only would be affected a unique branch of all T branches of a specific time period. So, I think the high movility is the best answer with our knowledge.

Anyway, If you take a look into the link I have posted, you can see several significant demographic explosions on different T lineages.

You have CTS6507 (4500 yBP) with lots of living son branches. Being identified members: Zoroastrian Mobeds, several Royal and Noble Houses of the Persian Gulf and maybe a Jewish-original branch.

 

[Salento]

I dont think so. That some lineage Exploided demographically at a relatively recent time, doesn't mean that others that didn't experienced this demographic explosion are the opposite.

Atlantis or Isolation are the most serious possibilities among those you posted and IF real, only would be affected a unique branch of all T branches of a specific time period. So, I think the high movility is the best answer with our knowledge.

All 3 branches suffers by low % if I understood correctly.
If that’s the case High mobility could apply to 1 Branch, but no to all. It would be an improbable Coincidence.

 

[Alpenjager]

All 3 branches suffers by low % if I understood correctly.
If that’s the case High mobility could apply to 1 Branch, but no to all. It would be an improbable Coincidence.

When you share ancestor there is no need of mere coincidence. Haplogroup T is found at the root of the Neolithic life-style. So is not strange this extremely high movility since very old times.

Two extremely early splitted branches like T1b and T1a are found among the earliest Neolithic populations of West Eurasia. Anyway, only T1a shows this high movility.

 

[Salento]

I dont think so. That some lineage Exploided demographically at a relatively recent time, doesn't mean that others that didn't experienced this demographic explosion are the opposite.

Atlantis or Isolation are the most serious possibilities among those you posted and IF real, only would be affected a unique branch of all T branches of a specific time period. So, I think the high movility is the best answer with our knowledge.

Anyway, If you take a look into the link I have posted, you can see several significant demographic explosions on different T lineages.

You have CTS6507 (4500 yBP) with lots of living son branches. Being identified members: Zoroastrian Mobeds, several Royal Houses of the Persian Gulf and maybe a Jewish-original branch.

I’m actually Negative for CTS6507 (red on FTDNA)

I’m Z19945 ( negative for CTS1848 ) same as Sile.

 

[Alpenjager]

I’m actually Negative for CTS6507 (red on FTDNA)

I’m Z19945 ( negative for CTS1848 ) same as Sile.

Yes, I know. I mean "you have in the tree". Excuse me the confusion.

 

[Salento]

Yes, I know. I mean "you have in the tree". Excuse me the confusion.

By looking at the FTDNA tree any relation that CTS6507 people have with Z19945 is Remote at best.

 

[Salento]

Wow those are a lot of Mutations.
It gets more complicated all the time.

 

[Salento]

When you share ancestor there is no need of mere coincidence. Haplogroup T is found at the root of the Neolithic life-style. So is not strange this extremely high movility since very old times.

Two extremely early splitted branches like T1b and T1a are found among the earliest Neolithic populations of West Eurasia. Anyway, only T1a shows this high movility.

Thank you for the Clear Explanation.
It all makes sense now.

Also I think that before I misinterpreted “You have”, you probably meant to say “We have, or There is, Haplo.... ” as a general way to make a point.
(“You have Haplo... “ (4500 yBP) with lots of living son branches...)
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Sile]

I dont think so. That some lineage Exploided demographically at a relatively recent time, doesn't mean that others that didn't experienced this demographic explosion are the opposite.
Atlantis or Isolation are the most serious possibilities among those you posted and IF real, only would be affected a unique branch of all T branches of a specific time period. So, I think the high movility is the best answer with our knowledge.
Anyway, If you take a look into the link I have posted, you can see several significant demographic explosions on different T lineages.
You have CTS6507 (4500 yBP) with lots of living son branches. Being identified members: Zoroastrian Mobeds, several Royal and Noble Houses of the Persian Gulf and maybe a Jewish-original branch.

Zorastrian began in Turkmenistan
https://zoroastrians.net/2010/08/25/archaeology-findings-on-zoroastrianaryan-sites-in-turkmenistan/
.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/vik...ruck-gold-in-turkmenistan-20140117-30zd7.html
.
Any Zoroastrian in Persia or elsewhere are migrations.
.
Gonur Tepe is the actual area of Zoroastrian.......was there not a T1a found there from a recent paper?
.
https://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/merv/gonur.htm

 

[Sile]

All 3 branches suffers by low % if I understood correctly.
If that’s the case High mobility could apply to 1 Branch, but no to all. It would be an improbable Coincidence.

It would mostly mean that T was a hunter group and not farmers or herders initially

 

[Sile]

By looking at the FTDNA tree any relation that CTS6507 people have with Z19945 is Remote at best.

View attachment 10184

impossible......we are part of the T1a2 branch and CTS6507 is part of the T1a1 branch ..........they are as different as R1b is to R1a

 

[Suleyman]

Haplogroup T in Caucasus and Iranian Plateau have diverse origins because there are several different branches. I recommend you first take a deep look into the link I provided you. You should find some answers and new questions.

Mostly from somewhere around the Black Sea where most probably are found the roots of some ancient T branches like T1a1a-L208.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-K2/default.aspx?section=yresults

I answered the third question in my last post, the high movility nature could be a major factor. This also is so graphic in the last link I provided you.

Are you participating in the Haplogroup T project ? https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-K2/default.aspx?section=yresults
And you uploaded your results to YFull?


In the https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-K2/default.aspx?section=yresults, I am listed as "unmatched'. Alpenjager, there is a guy from Czech republic he has many numbers who fit mine...