T Haplogroup Caucasus

Hamed said:
Very Interesting.It certaintly explaines many things for me.
Theres another factor of haplogroup T in the Caucasus.
In the 7th century AD an arab general by the name of Abd-Rahman ibn Rabiah invaded the caucasus with many men of his tribe(Rabiah Tribe).He was sent by the Khalifa of his time.He conquered South-Caucasus and went up as far as Daghestan.
His descendants and tribes descendants stayed there and even ruled there.
There is also a big arab tribe who ruled Armenia (back then what was called Armenia was a huge part of the caucasus) called Banu Shayban.
Banu shayban and Banu Rabiah are an offshoot of Bani Bakr bin Wail.They are Adnanites(direct descendants of Adnaan....Adnaan is a grands0n of Ishmaeil son of Abraham.
If you go to arab sites for y dna research(you must know arabic) you will clearly see many people of Banu Rabiah and other offshoots of Shaybanis and even smaller tribes descendants of Bakr bin Wael are all haplogroup T.
This might also point out some of the origins of haplogroup T in the caucasus.For me this theory and yours makes alot of sense. I and my brothers look like arab men from the desert.Alot of the men from the caucasus are of fair complexion.
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There are Bani Shaiba added to the tree and are not related to Bani Rabiah, both belong to two completly different lineages.
 
Caucasus said:
Hamed, I think your research is very impressive and insightful. However, I dont believe that Haplogroup T is an Arab Marker. I firmly believe birthplace of T is modern-day Iran (Elamaite-Mede theory is very convincing to me). I think the presence of T in some tribes you mention has more to do with the fact that they have Jewish roots. Even the Gureysh tribe is believed to have a Jewish descent. It is no wonder that there is so much similarity between Judaism and Islam in so many ways despite the hateful rivalry between them. During the reign of Persian-Median Empire, lots of Jews in Babylonian captivity that were set free, and different parts of Persian Empire including Iran, migrated back to build their destroyed temple in Jerusalem. By the way, some of these Persian speaking Jews live in Azerbaijan Republic to this day... The dominance of Haplogroup in isolated Iranian communities like Zorastrians, Bakhtiaris etc further testifies to the pure Iranian origin of this haplogroup. In other words, this T migrated to the rest of the Middle East, Greece, Balkans from modern-day Iran when the Persian Empire was in its heydays and controlled big swaths of lands. Because of Caucasus's proximity to Iran, strong historical ties thought such a long period of time, it comes as no surprise to see relative prevalence of T in Caucasus.
A few villages in Mil-Mughan area of Azerbaijan which may have been established by Arabs when they invaded Caucasus(if I am not mistaken there is a village called Arablar in Kurdemir district). But I have a strong hunch they would belong to J rather than T.
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Actually, there is not found any basally splitted branch in Iran. So, This is rather unlikely.

Zoroastrians and Bakhtiaris belong to different T lineages and are very specific on the tree.
 
Caucasus said:
Hamed, I think your research is very impressive and insightful. However, I dont believe that Haplogroup T is an Arab Marker. I firmly believe birthplace of T is modern-day Iran (Elamaite-Mede theory is very convincing to me). I think the presence of T in some tribes you mention has more to do with the fact that they have Jewish roots. Even the Gureysh tribe is believed to have a Jewish descent. It is no wonder that there is so much similarity between Judaism and Islam in so many ways despite the hateful rivalry between them. During the reign of Persian-Median Empire, lots of Jews in Babylonian captivity that were set free, and different parts of Persian Empire including Iran, migrated back to build their destroyed temple in Jerusalem. By the way, some of these Persian speaking Jews live in Azerbaijan Republic to this day... The dominance of Haplogroup in isolated Iranian communities like Zorastrians, Bakhtiaris etc further testifies to the pure Iranian origin of this haplogroup. In other words, this T migrated to the rest of the Middle East, Greece, Balkans from modern-day Iran when the Persian Empire was in its heydays and controlled big swaths of lands.
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there are ancient T ydna samples that are early Neolithic in Europe ....
2 in Germany and
2 in Bulgaria.....
then there is a Sogdian in Turkmenistan/north Iran.......
a Levant sample stated are originating in north-east Turkey
a north west Moroccan on the atlantic sea that came from Iberia
.
all these are ancient sample
.
.
I have not seen a Elamite nor a Lurs that are ancient .............seen 15% of Kurds that have T .....like the zaza people who originated in Azeri lands and then there are 6% yazidi people
.
IMO I would say T split from haplogroup LT between the Caspian and Aral seas..........also due to T2-PH110 in bhutan which has same split date as T
.
Alpen IIRC states between the Black and Caspian seas
.
whatever the case , T originates north of the Zargos mountains..........you might find the truth before me
 
Alpanjager, I know you have an extensive knowledge on this issue from the posts. All of my amateur research points to Elam and Zagros mountains that gave rise to T. Where do you think T originated?
 
Caucasus said:
Alpanjager, I know you have an extensive knowledge on this issue from the posts. All of my amateur research points to Elam and Zagros mountains that gave rise to T. Where do you think T originated?
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As pointed by Sile, the most likely origin of T should be somewhere between Wallachian/Danubian Plains in western Black Sea and Caspian Sea, at most pushing a bit further west (taking account L lineage) and further east (taking account Himalaya's T2 off shot) the possible extremes.
 
Sile, it is interesting to know that 15% of Kurds have T. Do you refer to Zazaki Kurds only? I have been surprised to see a low incidence of T among Kurds from reading some of the studies.
 
Caucasus said:
Sile, it is interesting to know that 15% of Kurds have T. Do you refer to Zazaki Kurds only? I have been surprised to see a low incidence of T among Kurds from reading some of the studies.
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the kurdish dna site states between 14 and 15 % ...........they update it every 6 months...........

the Neolithic paper of 2011/12 states 21% for Sason area ...........which is where zaza migrated to
 
Sile said:
there are ancient T ydna samples that are early Neolithic in Europe ....
2 in Germany and
2 in Bulgaria.....
then there is a Sogdian in Turkmenistan/north Iran.......
a Levant sample stated are originating in north-east Turkey
a north west Moroccan on the atlantic sea that came from Iberia
.
all these are ancient sample
.
.
I have not seen a Elamite nor a Lurs that are ancient .............seen 15% of Kurds that have T .....like the zaza people who originated in Azeri lands and then there are 6% yazidi people
.
IMO I would say T split from haplogroup LT between the Caspian and Aral seas..........also due to T2-PH110 in bhutan which has same split date as T
.
Alpen IIRC states between the Black and Caspian seas
.
whatever the case , T originates north of the Zargos mountains..........you might find the truth before me
Click to expand...

Sile, about the ancient sample, can you say how old a sample has to be ... to be ancient?
 
Sile said:
the kurdish dna site states between 14 and 15 % ...........they update it every 6 months...........

the Neolithic paper of 2011/12 states 21% for Sason area ...........which is where zaza migrated to
Click to expand...

In Sasun area were tested only ethnic Armenians.
 
Alpenjager said:
There are Bani Shaiba added to the tree and are not related to Bani Rabiah, both belong to two completly different lineages.
Click to expand...
NO no....I wrote banu Shaybani( not banu shaybah the key owners of kaaba).Banu shaybani are related to Bakr ibn Wael just like banu Rabiah and so many other Adnaanite tribes.
 
Alpenjager said:
In Sasun area were tested only ethnic Armenians.
Click to expand...

Armenians state that they originate from a mix of 2 ancient peoples .....the Hurrian and the Nairi ...........the Nairi from what I gather come from modern Gilan province on the Caspian sea, I think this is azeri lands ........Sason/Sasun is in Kurdish East-Turkey IIRC
 
Hamed said:
NO no....I wrote banu Shaybani( not banu shaybah the key owners of kaaba).Banu shaybani are related to Bakr ibn Wael just like banu Rabiah and so many other Adnaanite tribes.
Click to expand...

I will appreciate if you post Kit numbers when talking about Tribes found in DNA project. This will makes their identification easier.

What is clear here is that the Rabiah T samples and Bakr T samples are completly unrelated.
 
Alpenjager, can you kindly provide a little more info about CTS6507 in terms of its prevalence in different parts of the world or anything else you wanted to share?
Thanks
 
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