Teal people found: Caucasians!

[Tomenable]

LMAO, Samara? Are you serious??

Yes, the earliest evidence of domestication of horses comes from Samara culture.

And what advantages do horses provide (that allow for hunters to conquer farmers) - see the history of Native North Americans during the 1600s and the 1700s, when horse-riding buffalo hunters & gatherers raided and bullied sedentary farmers without horses.

 

[Athiudisc]

Currently available Ancient samples of R1b haplogroup (in total 45+ samples) and R1a haplogroup (in total 71+ samples) suggest, that both R1b-M269/L23 and R1a-M198/M417 could initially increase in numbers (demographic expansion) in the Volga steppe. If not counting R1b-V88 Iberians, the oldest known samples of R1a and R1b come from exactly the same prehistoric peoples and cultures - from EHGs and from Khvalynsk culture (= the best candidate for the earliest PIE culture according to M. Gimbutas).

Roughly from that area, they could later expand territorially, roughly at the same time, but along distinct routes.

I like it.

 

[Fluffy]

why is it that every paper that comes out gets distorted by fabrication about ydna R1 ??

the paper has 2x J and 1 x I ydna
lets not have R1 fantasy dreams as per usual

when you find CHG in a per with R1 .........then we can talk about it

Yes I agree with this. Enough is enough.

 

[Tomenable]

Nobody needs a CHG with R1 because there is R1 in EHGs, and that even before they got admixed by "Teal".

As I wrote you don't need Y-DNA to acquire someone's autosomal admixture.

One can safely have sons with any woman without risk that one's son may not acquire one's Y-DNA...

Again let me remind you that Proto-IEs were 1) patriarchal and 2) polygynous:

Maternal side of their ancestry did not matter to them (women just "provided wombs" for little PIE fetuses):

 

[Goga]

Yes, the earliest evidence of domestication of horses comes from Samara culture.

And what advantages do horses provide (that allow for hunters to conquer farmers) - see the history of Native North Americans during the 1600s and the 1700s, when horse-riding buffalo hunters & gatherers raided and bullied sedentary farmers without horses.

I heard that they found traces of domestication of horses in Arabia thousands of years before the steppes. Nobody knows for sure wherethe domestication of horses took place. But we all know for sure that the Neolithic revolution and that first domestication of animal took place in West Asia.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14658678



+ first domestication of horses has nothing to do with Proto-Indo-European. It was only important when Indo-Europeans from Yamnaya invaded Europe with horses. But that was long after the domestication of horses. :

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14658678




I think that domestication of horse predate PIE.

 

[Goga]

Nobody needs a CHG with R1 because there is R1 in EHGs, and even before they got admixed by "Teal".

As I wrote you don't need Y-DNA to acquire someone's autosomal admixture.

One can safely have sons with any woman without risk that one's son may not acquire one's Y-DNA...

So what that there is R1 in EHG? There is also J in EHG and J is not native to EHG..

 

[Goga]

" Saudis 'find evidence of early horse domestication'

Saudi officials say archaeologists have begun excavating a site that suggests horses were domesticated 9,000 years ago in the Arabian Peninsula "


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14658678



I'm sure that early horse domestication in Arabia spread from the Iranian Plateau not long after the Neolithicrevolution !!!!



+ first domestication of horses has nothing to do with Proto-Indo-European! It was only important when Indo-Europeans from Yamnaya invaded Europe with horses.
[SUB][/SUB]

 

[Tomenable]

There is also J in EHG and J is not native to EHG.

What does it even mean to be "native to EHG" or to other tribe ???

J could be so widespread, that it could be "native" in many places.

How long does a lineage need to live in a place, to be "native" there?

Saudi officials say archaeologists have begun excavating a site that suggests horses were domesticated 9,000 years ago in the Arabian Peninsula "

Who knows maybe they did, but it did not spread outside of the Arabian Peninsula to the rest of the world.

A genetic study on horses found out, that all modern male horses descended from western part of the Eurasian steppe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse#Genetic_evidence

A study published in 2012 that performed genomic sampling on 300 work horses from local areas as well as a review of previous studies of archaeology, mitochondrial DNA, andY-DNA suggested that horses were originally domesticated in the western part of the Eurasian steppe.[22] Both domesticated stallions and mares spread out from this area, and then additional wild mares were added from local herds; wild mares were easier to handle than wild stallions. Most other parts of the world were ruled out as sites for horse domestication, either due to climate unsuitable for an indigenous wild horse population or no evidence of domestication.[23]

So if any horses were domesticated in Arabia, they never become successful, but died out or got wild again.

I'm not sure if you realize, but the same thing can be invented in more than one place. For example agriculture did emerge more than once - in several populations indepentedly from each other. EEFs never brought agriculture to the Americas or to China.

 

[Goga]

What does it even mean to be "native to EHG" or to other tribe ???

J could be so widespread, that it could be "native" in many places.

How long does a lineage need to live in a place, to be "native" there?

Sure at that time J was maybe already native to EHG. But my point is that R1 in EHG could be also originally from the same place as J before R1 ended up in NorthEastern Europe.


It's not anymore about thesis, antithesis, synthesis or sifts of paradigm. We’re talking here about bits and bytes. Computer era, era of globalization, the world is becoming a huge village. And computers are telling us that PIE came from the South, not North.


Just let it go, time to move on. People can’t beat hard science especially this very rationalistic era with advanced computers around.

 

[Tomenable]

Yes but EHGs were hunters, not farmers.

So if J or R1a or R1b migrated from the south, they did that long before farming.

And computers are telling us that PIE came from the South, not North.

Then you must apparently fix your computers.

 

[Tomenable]

But we all know for sure that the Neolithic revolution and that first domestication of animal took place in West Asia.

We all know for sure that the Neolithic revolution took place several times independently from each other - for example in West Asia, in China, in the Americas. Who was first is irrelevant, what's relevant is that West Asians didn't bring agriculture to entire world. There were several groups of hunter-gatherers around the world, who domesticated distinct animals and started to grow distinct plants.

Do you seriously think, that West Asians migrated to the Americas and to China, teaching local hunters how to farm ???

No, in those places (and in several other places) local hunters came up with similar ideas, resulting in similar innovations.

West Asians were the first ones to do such things, but they were not the only ones who did such things.

 

[Goga]

Who knows maybe they did, but it did not spread outside of the Arabian Peninsula to the rest of the world.

A genetic study on horses found out, that all modern male horses descended from western part of the Eurasian steppe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse#Genetic_evidence



So if any horses were domesticated in Arabia, they never become successful, but died out or got wild again.

I'm not sure if you realize, but the same thing can be invented in more than one place. For example agriculture did emerge more than once - in several populations indepentedly from each other. EEFs never brought agriculture to the Americas or to China.

I'm sure that the horse domestication spread into Steppes during the Neolithic era.

BUT, BUT. BUT, who cares? Horse domestication has nothing to do with PIE. Horses don't speak a human language.

PIE is younger than horse domestication..


It was only important, long after horse domestication occurred, when Indo-Europeans from Yamnaya invaded Europe by horses. It was one of the reasons why Indo-Europeans spread that fast in Europe.

 

[Tomenable]

I'm sure that the horse domestication spread into Steppes during the Neolithic era.

The steppes was where wild horses originally lived, and they were domesticated by groups of local hunters (such as Botai culture).

 

[Goga]

Then you must apparently fix your computers.

Or you should come back into the real world of computers from your dream world. You can get very sick if you stay in your dream for some time. If you stay to long in your matrix, you will be never able to come back into reality; our common shared real world of computers.

 

[Tomenable]

Goga it is you who keep ignoring evidence that seems uncomfortable for your "Iranid race made everything" theory. I work with evidence not with wild statements such as "surely R1 came from Iranian Plateau even though there is no aDNA to support this".

Even IF that came from Iranian Plateau, then another question is WHEN did R1 come from Iranian Plateau.

If it came from there more than 10,000 years ago then those people were not yet speakers of Proto-Indo-European.

Obviously everyone came from the south at some point, because people originated in Africa, not in Greenland...

But aren't we talking about the origins of PIE community ??? Other threads are for migrations which took place waaaay back.

 

[Goga]

The steppes was where wild horses originally lived, and they were domesticated by groups of local hunters (such as Botai culture).

There're also steppes on the Iranian Plateau and Arabian Peninsula. Your knowledge of topography seems also not to be very strong.


Horses could migrate from the Iranian Plateau into the Steppes and even fatser that humans...

 

[Tomenable]

There're also steppes on the Iranian Plateau and Arabian Peninsula.

Uhm... , these are deserts, semi-deserts or arid plains rather than places full of long and juicy grass, which is ideal for horses.

Horses could migrate from the Iranian Plateau into the Steppes and even fatser that humans...

OK I give up. Every fu... I mean every living thing migrated from the Iranian Plateau !!!

Are you happy now that you are the cradle of everything? But together with Sub-Saharan Africa. The two greatest regions.

BTW, I'm not claiming that PIEs emerged near the Baltic Sea. You are the one arguing that "my homeland = PIE homeland".

 

[Goga]

Goga it is you who keep ignoring evidence that seems uncomfortable for your "Iranid race made everything" theory. I work with evidence not with wild statements such as "surely R1 came from Iranian Plateau even though there is no aDNA to support this".

Even IF that came from Iranian Plateau, then another question is WHEN did R1 come from Iranian Plateau.

If it came from there more than 10,000 years ago then those people were not yet speakers of Proto-Indo-European.

BINGO!


Actually, West Asian auDNA is spread all over the world. From Africa into India and even as far as China. It's the most widespread auDNA in our reality. And now they found out that CHG has to be native somewhere around the Caucasus. So, auDNA science supports that West Asian auDNA is the most influential one

How old is R1b in Africa, the most distant

 

[holderlin]

Once again, SAMARA??? Joke of the day!


Please, try better next time..

I guess I will waste some time to inform you, if you're a real person, which is hard for me to believe, that Yamnaya is descended from DnieperDonets/Samara->Khvalysnk/StrednyStog. The denial is getting absurd. The genetics supports this as well, quite clearly.

The only argument for a Southern homeland at this stage is that it's "still possible". Which I guess I could agree with, however extremely improbably at this point.

Like I said before, if Maykop is the home of these elusive all teal R1a and R1b dudes then I might have to revise my opinion.

 

[Tomenable]

Actually, West Asian auDNA is spread all over the world. From Africa into India and even as far as China

ush: ...

OK everyone is West Asian. Good night, it's late here. :grin: