The Chalcolithic, Swastika, and pre-proto-Indo-Europeans in Mesopotamia

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In, as far as I know, all of the most ancient sites associated with copper metallurgy, swastikas have been found. I will be focusing on Mesopotamia here, but it is worth noting the presence of Swastikas, metallurgy and primitive writing script in the Chalcolithic Balkans.

The spread of the Swastika in Mesopotamia can be mapped from the Halaf culture in Upper Mesopotamia, through Mesopotamia during the Hassuna and Samarra cultures, and down to the Ubaid culture by the Persian Gulf. Later, the Ubaid culture is replaced by that of the Uruk period.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Mesopotamia_Período_6.PNG

As an example, here is some pottery from the Samarra period, clearly with the Swastika motif:

https://i.imgur.com/4vqvJk7_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

We can also work backwards to complete this migration story. Maykop was formed by settlers from Leyla Tepe, which itself was likely formed from late Ubaid settlers (pre-Uruk). Presuming Maykop was the source of CHG and R1b to Yamnaya, we can trace the movement of R1b from Halaf all the way to Yamnaya.

This makes sense archaeologically, but does it make sense in other ways?

It, as mentioned, explains the spread of the Swastika across Mesopotamia (the Swastika would have been picked up by J2 tribes, and spread through things like the Kura-Araxes expansion to e.g. the IVC)

It explains the presence of shared words with Semitic languages, such as the word for bull.

It agrees with the recent Yamnaya-like R1b found near Azerbaijan (where the Gutians were likely from).

It explains the CHG found in Yamnaya (R1b would have inevitably mixed with J2 women on the way to the Steppe).

mtDNA found in these regions are very R1-like, for example U4 and H3a.

Amongst other things.

In this migrational chain of Halaf to Maykop (then to Yamnaya), assuming the presence of Swastikas in Halaf to be indicative of R1b (and Maciamo has other reasons to suspect R1b was present in that rough area, check his entry for R1b on the main page), and assuming Maykop is R1b (highly likely, especially given the recent result from Iranian Azerbaijan), we now have two knotted ends of the rope. I cannot see how this idea can be wrong.

And for the final reminder to those who doubt the presence of R1b in this period, not least as culture-bearers, may I refer you to the plethora of naturally red-haired mummies of Ancient Egypt.

Perhaps, despite not inventing farming, these gingers imposed themselves in a hierarchical system similar to the Indo-Europeans themselves.

And I fully realize this will sound ridiculous to some, but then again, it also seems ridiculous that an Egyptian, probably the greatest ever, could look like this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...ses_II_mummy_in_profile_(colored_picture).jpg

And my final disclaimer against the mods - this isn’t Nordicism. There would be little to no Northern European genetic component involved.
 
In, as far as I know, all of the most ancient sites associated with copper metallurgy, swastikas have been found. I will be focusing on Mesopotamia here, but it is worth noting the presence of Swastikas, metallurgy and primitive writing script in the Chalcolithic Balkans.

The spread of the Swastika in Mesopotamia can be mapped from the Halaf culture in Upper Mesopotamia, through Mesopotamia during the Hassuna and Samarra cultures, and down to the Ubaid culture by the Persian Gulf. Later, the Ubaid culture is replaced by that of the Uruk period.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Mesopotamia_Período_6.PNG

As an example, here is some pottery from the Samarra period, clearly with the Swastika motif:

https://i.imgur.com/4vqvJk7_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

We can also work backwards to complete this migration story. Maykop was formed by settlers from Leyla Tepe, which itself was likely formed from late Ubaid settlers (pre-Uruk). Presuming Maykop was the source of CHG and R1b to Yamnaya, we can trace the movement of R1b from Halaf all the way to Yamnaya.

This makes sense archaeologically, but does it make sense in other ways?

It, as mentioned, explains the spread of the Swastika across Mesopotamia (the Swastika would have been picked up by J2 tribes, and spread through things like the Kura-Araxes expansion to e.g. the IVC)

It explains the presence of shared words with Semitic languages, such as the word for bull.

It agrees with the recent Yamnaya-like R1b found near Azerbaijan (where the Gutians were likely from).

It explains the CHG found in Yamnaya (R1b would have inevitably mixed with J2 women on the way to the Steppe).

mtDNA found in these regions are very R1-like, for example U4 and H3a.

Amongst other things.

In this migrational chain of Halaf to Maykop (then to Yamnaya), assuming the presence of Swastikas in Halaf to be indicative of R1b (and Maciamo has other reasons to suspect R1b was present in that rough area, check his entry for R1b on the main page), and assuming Maykop is R1b (highly likely, especially given the recent result from Iranian Azerbaijan), we now have two knotted ends of the rope. I cannot see how this idea can be wrong.

And for the final reminder to those who doubt the presence of R1b in this period, not least as culture-bearers, may I refer you to the plethora of naturally red-haired mummies of Ancient Egypt.

Perhaps, despite not inventing farming, these gingers imposed themselves in a hierarchical system similar to the Indo-Europeans themselves.

And I fully realize this will sound ridiculous to some, but then again, it also seems ridiculous that an Egyptian, probably the greatest ever, could look like this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...ses_II_mummy_in_profile_(colored_picture).jpg

And my final disclaimer against the mods - this isn’t Nordicism. There would be little to no Northern European genetic component involved.

Hail the gingers !!!! our ancient masters who imposed themselves on us in a hierarchical system, who wouldn't want that ...
 
Hail the gingers !!!! our ancient masters who imposed themselves on us in a hierarchical system, who wouldn't want that ...

The ginger bit was a joke lol - I’m not ginger by the way, I’ve got brown hair and blue eyes.

But seriously - give me a flaw. Of course, we need more evidence before it can be confidently said to be true, but there’s nothing wrong with this theory. In fact, it makes a lot of sense.
 
If you think it’s so ridiculous, provide arguments against it.

Against what ? the imposing, we couldn't resist .. those ginger bastards overwhelmed us, and then took our women .. and then took them again and made us watch (it was hot) and then imposed the caste system.

Our lovely ginger dictators ..
 
Against what ? the imposing, we couldn't resist .. those ginger bastards overwhelmed us, and then took our women .. and then took them again and made us watch, and then imposed the caste system.

Our lovely ginger dictators ..

A similar story occurred in India, yet that’s widely accepted.

If it wasn’t for the Swastika, I would have guessed all these cultures (Halaf, Samarra etc.) would be J2 (pred.). But with that, and also Halaf basically perfectly superimposing itself on Maciamo’s prediction of the Middle Eastern R1b’s pre-migration homeland, I’m sold. Plus the red-haired mummies.

I mean, Ramses II was a ginger, and Tutankhamun was probably R1b-M269
 
A similar story occurred in India, yet that’s widely accepted.

If it wasn’t for the Swastika, I would have guessed all these cultures (Halaf, Samarra etc.) would be J2 (pred.). But with that, and also Halaf basically perfectly superimposing itself on Maciamo’s prediction of the Middle Eastern R1b’s pre-migration homeland, I’m sold. Plus the red-haired mummies.

I mean, Ramses II was a ginger, and Tutankhamun was probably R1b-M269

Hey what's wrong with J2 people if they wanted to join the Swastika club ? we demand social justice here
 
Hey what's wrong with J2 people if they wanted to join the Swastika club ? we demand social justice here

Well they did join the Swastika club, but they weren’t Indo-European. It’s just a good luck symbol, probably something to do with the Sun, it’s not some mystical symbol of Aryan powaaaa
 
God will somebody just argue against this or state agreement, it’s pretty rubbish if an idea remains in isolation - I could just be nuts
 
God will somebody just argue against this or state agreement, it’s pretty rubbish if an idea remains in isolation - I could just be nuts

No man you're a genius, don't listen to them.

I state agreement, HAIL GINGERIA
 
Where did you make the link between man who carry one haplogroup called R1b and being ginger or more generally light-haired? I'm sure it's not R1b or J2 that determine one's hair color, nor is R1b as a whole consistently correlated with high frequency of light hair even nowadays, let alone 6000-5000 years ago. Because there are supposedly many red-haired elite mummies in Egypt? (by the way did they make DNA tests on them to even affirm that so confidently? Henna-colored hair was pretty common fashion in Egypt, and then there is also the obvious fact that hair tends to lighten as it starts to decompose) I'm really lost on some of your assumptions, they're making huge leaps from the premise to the conclusion, and the necessary explanations are lacking. Much of it seems, if I understood you correctly, to rely on the undemonstrated speculation that there is something particularly "Indo-European" about light hair.

Also, how on earth such a powerful, technologically advanced (copper metallurgy, a huge novelty at that time), hierarchically dominant, economically and politically prized population did not manage to spread a huge and common language family in the ancient world from Europe to India and Egypt? Or do you believe those were already the Indo-Europeans even though their languages were not attested in the Middle East (where all the 1st inscriptions are found) until milennia later, and their language most probably started to diverge (at least if you take exception to Anatolian and maybe, not certainly, Tocharian) only during the Bronze Age?
 
About Ramesses II, come on, that pharaoh is supposed to have died when was around 90 years old! Do you really think he still had his natural hair at that age? If he did, he was not only lucky, but also virtually miraculous. LOL. I really hope they make a thorough DNA analysis on this mummy to see if he had the derived genes for lighter hair, though that proves little to nothing about your hypothesis, since the mutations for blonde and red hair are much much older than this supposed spread of swastika-bearing Near Easterners and was by then certainly found, even if in low proportions, in lots of different populations and ethnicities.
 
About Ramesses II, come on, that pharaoh is supposed to have died when was around 90 years old! Do you really think he still had his natural hair at that age? If he did, he was not only lucky, but also virtually miraculous. LOL. I really hope they make a thorough DNA analysis on this mummy to see if he had the derived genes for lighter hair, though that proves little to nothing about your hypothesis, since the mutations for blonde and red hair are much much older than this supposed spread of swastika-bearing Near Easterners and was by then certainly found, even if in low proportions, in lots of different populations and ethnicities.
Yeah he was ancient when he died so clearly that isn't his natural colour, but his hair is still naturally red. You only need a microscope to find this out, I don't know the details, but I know that they confirmed he was naturally ginger.
As for associating R1b with red hair - I think that's especially fair given that back then, everybody was a little less mixed. R1b tribes would have had lots of female R1b lines (the equivalent, obviously they don't carry Y DNA), unlike today, where R1b tribes have progressively snatched EEF women.
I don't believe there is anything Indo-European about these people, but I believe like Maciamo they would later mix with R1a foragers to create such a language (and the shared words with proto-Semitic, and even shared mythologies (both believe in a world tree bearing a fruit granting immense power that is tended to by either a snake or dragon, as but one example) suggest that their Urheimat's can't have been far apart).
And the Swastika is clearly related to the Indo-Europeans, one way or another (either by pots or people), they all trace back to them. The oldest Swastika is in the Ukraine, on mammoth ivory iirc, which matches the hypothesis of R1 people being mammoth hunters. Swastikas seem to be especially associated with the R1b branch, considering it has been found in Africa (from V88 tribes) but also in Mesopotamia before ever being found on the Steppe, as far as I know.
 
About Ramesses II, come on, that pharaoh is supposed to have died when was around 90 years old! Do you really think he still had his natural hair at that age? If he did, he was not only lucky, but also virtually miraculous. LOL. I really hope they make a thorough DNA analysis on this mummy to see if he had the derived genes for lighter hair, though that proves little to nothing about your hypothesis, since the mutations for blonde and red hair are much much older than this supposed spread of swastika-bearing Near Easterners and was by then certainly found, even if in low proportions, in lots of different populations and ethnicities.
The there's also signs of Swastikas being found in places like Peru as early as 300 AD, it just doesn't make any sense that they developed this independently. There's also the famous red-haired Chinchorro mummies, that Maciamo looked at (via Genetiker's analysis) and claimed the best fit of the European components was in Neolithic Ukraine. I also don't believe they developed farming independently - are we to believe all farming ultimately derives from the Middle East, except for that of the Americas? Because that's currently our best guess (there's debate as to whether Papuans invented their agriculture outside of any foreign influence too, but they're minor players). Is it really the case that after being hunter-gatherers for tens of thousands of years, in the space of a few thousand years farming had been adopted indepently in multiple places?

Also, consider things like metallurgy in South America - I don't believe they discovered that independently either.

But Swastikas and red-haired mummies are the real clinchers of outside influence for me. There's also blue eyed sculptures in all of these very places, but associating blue eyes solely with Indo-Europeans isn't fair. I don't know if the Amerindian mummies have been examined so as to deduce if they have naturally red hair, but whatever the case, the hair is definitely Caucasoid.
There MUST have been a maritime, red-haired people, who spread agriculture to hunter-gatherers in the Americas, or at least if they didn't, they found their way there. Coincidentally, the ancient Greeks associated red hair with the sea, but anecdote doesn't count for much.
 
I have also thought about a movement Halaf->Hassuna-Samarra->Ubaid->Leyla-Tepe->Maykop->Yamnaya. I didn't know about the swastikas and it reinforces the connection. Besides, Halaf is the region where cattle were domesticated, presumably by R1b people, so the presence of R1b in the region wouldn't be odd. The problem is the timing. R1b-L23 is supposed to have reached the Steppe before 5000 BCE and in that scenario Leyla-Tepe culture is too young. But the others could still work.

Northern Mesopotamia is overwhelmingly J2 today, with also lots of J1 and T1a. But it could very well be that these haplogroups came during the Kura-Araxes expansion from the region of Armenia, and replaced a lot of R1b lineages. It's also possible that only some tribes were R1b, or that through a founder effect it was mostly R1b people that led the migration across the Caucasus, even though R1b wasn't dominant in Halaf, Hassuna and Ubaid. There are many possibilities.


As for Ramses II's red hair, I agree with Ygorcs. It could be discoloration with age. All black hair are reddish when bleached. As for Tutankhamun being R1b-M269, I think it was a hoax. The only source was the PC screen in the lab showed on a Discovery Channel documentary, but people who make such documentaries will just show any lab or any PC screen without caring if it's the actual results being discussed, as they don't expect their audience to pause the screen and run the STR values to verify the haplogroup. The haplotype shown on TV was an Irish R1b-M222, which is impossible for Tutankhamun.
 
I have also thought about a movement Halaf->Hassuna-Samarra->Ubaid->Leyla-Tepe->Maykop->Yamnaya. I didn't know about the swastikas and it reinforces the connection. Besides, Halaf is the region where cattle were domesticated, presumably by R1b people, so the presence of R1b in the region wouldn't be odd. The problem is the timing. R1b-L23 is supposed to have reached the Steppe before 5000 BCE and in that scenario Leyla-Tepe culture is too young. But the others could still work.

Northern Mesopotamia is overwhelmingly J2 today, with also lots of J1 and T1a. But it could very well be that these haplogroups came during the Kura-Araxes expansion from the region of Armenia, and replaced a lot of R1b lineages. It's also possible that only some tribes were R1b, or that through a founder effect it was mostly R1b people that led the migration across the Caucasus, even though R1b wasn't dominant in Halaf, Hassuna and Ubaid. There are many possibilities.


As for Ramses II's red hair, I agree with Ygorcs. It could be discoloration with age. All black hair are reddish when bleached. As for Tutankhamun being R1b-M269, I think it was a hoax. The only source was the PC screen in the lab showed on a Discovery Channel documentary, but people who make such documentaries will just show any lab or any PC screen without caring if it's the actual results being discussed, as they don't expect their audience to pause the screen and run the STR values to verify the haplogroup. The haplotype shown on TV was an Irish R1b-M222, which is impossible for Tutankhamun.

It’ll be interesting to see what comes of ancient DNA from the Middle East, as it’s all a bit confusing as to whether people or pots founded a particular culture. I’d lean towards people, but we don’t know yet. It could easily be various combinations, like in the case of the Beaker folk.

I’m quietly confident that Halaf, Hassuna-Samarra and Maykop have something to do with the R1b that made its way to the Steppe. Ubaid may be involved too, but there’s a possibility the Halaf-Ubaid transition (I’m not sure why they skip Hassuna-Samarra, but I think they’re considered Southern extensions of Halaf) was of a replacement of Halafians with Ubaidians. In my head, the Sumerians are pred. J2, as the Gutians didn’t have their own writing system, and they seem like a pretty good candidate for R1b as well as likely not being related to the Sumerians.

I’m not at all sure about other players - the Sumerians, at least, certainly seem to be invaders, as they clearly described Ubaidians as non-Sumerian. Shulaveri Shomu also needs to be considered, as it too has links to Halaf. If I could find craniometric analysis of all of these cultures, it would be immensely useful, as despite its lack of precision, I’m a big believer in all that stuff - it’s a physical characteristic that measurably differs among different populations. Whatever the case, all these cultures will very likely be part of some interaction between J2, perhaps J1, and R1b, due to their links to animal husbandry. But anyway...

Firstly, why are the Egyptians flat-out refusing to publish Tut’s Y DNA? Clearly it can’t be an Irish subclade, but it seems a bit suspicious to me, especially considering the following:

That’s incorrect about Ramses II, here is a sourced quote from Wikipedia:

Microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair originally was red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads.[70] This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the deity Seth, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth."[71]

Seth, amongst other things, was the storm god of the ancient Egyptians, but tellingly also that of foreigners. Seth was also seen as the same god as the Hittite storm god Teshub, AND was associated with the Hyksos (meaning "rulers of foreign lands").

If Ramses II actually had red hair, which he did, it strongly points to R1b ancestry somewhere along the line. If, like you’ve hypothesised, R1b was involved in Chalcolithic Mesopotamia, it shouldn’t be a surprise that he potentially derives his ancestry from an Asiatic group of invaders.
 
@Dr. Eugenics

It seems my efforts to trollalize your thread have failed, congrats my swastika loving friend, people are taking you seriously, may the ginger gods guide you to the right path, like they guided the ancient ginger adventurers to the Americas to civilize them or whatever.

Maybe I'm just too cruel? I'll let you be.
 
@Dr. Eugenics

It seems my efforts to trollalize your thread have failed, congrats my swastika loving friend, people are taking you seriously, may the ginger gods guide you to the right path, like they guided the ancient ginger adventurers to the Americas to civilize them or whatever.

Maybe I'm just too cruel? I'll let you be.

I don’t love the Swastika by any means, but it is fascinating. Besides, the Nazis wouldn’t have associated its spread with red haired peoples - the average Ashkenazi Jew is more likely to have red hair than the average German (I see this as relating to the Kura-Araxes expansion, with the KA folk mixing with R1b folk, as outlined above).

But these ideas aren’t mine, and they should be taken seriously because there’s a lot of evidence for them.

People go on about this idea of the White gods (mainly in the context of Amerindians), but a lot of it can be substantiated. But it’s not like they would have invented civilisation - only spreading it (R1 explorers, yo). Civilisation has been clearly associated with farming, and R1b doesn’t have much to do with that.

Importantly, what is known is that in Mesopotamia, there’s plenty of evidence to suggest that there was at least a dual based class system between farmers and herders. This wasn’t thought to be the case originally.

From Wikipedia:

Ubaid culture originated in the south, but still has clear connections to earlier cultures in the region of middle Iraq. The appearance of the Ubaid folk has sometimes been linked to the so-called Sumerian problem, related to the origins of
Sumeriancivilisation. Whatever the ethnic origins of this group, this culture saw for the first time a clear tripartite social division between intensive subsistence peasant farmers, with crops and animals coming from the north, tent-dwelling nomadic pastoralists dependent upon their herds, and hunter-fisher folk of the Arabian littoral, living in reed huts.

If I was to be too simplistic, the identity of the farmers could be assuming to belong to something like G2a, but for the pastoralists and fishermen it’s unclear. Red hair has long been associated with the sea (by the ancient Greeks for example) and it matches with my auburn maritime folk idea (not my idea, but you get the point). But R1b is clearly associated with pastoralism. But, J2 peoples have also been herder types, and have also made great sailing civilizations. I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume the tripartite was between G2a farmers, R1b herders, and J2 fishermen, or some other combination, but the idea of segregation has to be considered! Historically, rulers and heros in ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt were associated with animal taming, so there’s that.

And sorry for the caps, but I believe this is pretty important:

IT WOULD BE FASCINATING IF THERE WAS SOME FORM OF SEGREGATION BETWEEN FARMER AND HERDER/H-G AT PLAY HERE - WE ALREADY KNOW THAT IN THE EARLY FARMER EXPANSION INTO NEOLITHIC EUROPE, BOTH GROUPS MAINLY KEPT TO THEMSELVES.
 

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