The Chalcolithic, Swastika, and pre-proto-Indo-Europeans in Mesopotamia

[IronSide]

People go on about this idea of the White gods (mainly in the context of Amerindians), but a lot of it can be substantiated. But it’s not like they would have invented civilisation - only spreading it (R1 explorers, yo).

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Not an argument, and did you read what I wrote? They were explorers, just as they have been in other accepted parts of history. I know it sounds kooky, but can you explain those mummies? You can’t, and your attitude is consistently trollish, so I’m no longer responding to you unless you become serious.

If I was still at school, where there were many Indians, and told them a (at least relatively) light-pigmented people had invaded India, brought with them Sanskrit and Hinduism, and set up the caste system, they’d see me as a retarded neo-Nazi with a fetish for Whites. Yet that’s what happened.

And they would be genetically very different to any modern European, anyway.

tl;dr Leave this thread

 

[Ygorcs]

As for associating R1b with red hair - I think that's especially fair given that back then, everybody was a little less mixed. R1b tribes would have had lots of female R1b lines (the equivalent, obviously they don't carry Y DNA), unlike today, where R1b tribes have progressively snatched EEF women.

The problem is that virtually all most ancient populations that have been analyazed and found to have an appreciable ammount of R1b haplogroups were overwhelmingly brown-haired and not blonde or, which is even rarer, ginger - and that includes the pretty unequestionably Indo-European Yamnaya. Thus, it seems to me that you simply took as a preconceived dogma that R1b people must've originally have had something to do with ginger or more generally lighter haid, even in the absence of any strong evidence leading to this conclusion. I don't think this kind of thing, first establishing what you want to be true and only then trying to find something that backs it up while perhaps neglecting what does not fit that narrative. Another problem is that we know that there were probably some percenage of light-haired people among EEF populations (including some samples from Anatolia) and in SHG populations of Northern Europe - none of which was associated with high proportion of R1b men or admixture with West Asian lineages (CHG-like?). In fact, the first population (among those we've analyzed) where light hair seems to have been really common, maybe prevalent, was the Globular Amphora Culture, made up mostly of EEF (and even the probably Indo-European peoples they interacted with, CWC, had very little R1b in them).

I still cannot see anything that makes your assumption at least plausible, much less likely. You may be right on some points, but this supposed correlation with ginger hair or even blonde hair is very weak, and there is also not many evidences to presume, without further, more enlightening genetic findings, that there was any great immigration of R1b-majority people in the Middle East as early as the Late Neolithic, much less this completely speculative, dare I say even somewhat fanciful idea that they became a highly hierarchic political/cultural elite in a caste-like system, yet they somehow managed to rule Egypt and be not just politically prestigious, but also culturally more advanced (metallurgy and so on), but still left virtually no linguistic impact at all, not even a strong substrate in the local language.

 

[Ygorcs]

As for swastikas, I'd be a little wary of associating all the spreads of this motif with just one expansive people in a particular culture, location and period. There are swastika motifs (of course there are variations in the specific format of the image) found as far away as Pre-Columbian Native America. Also, swastikas are archetypical symbols that may spread much faster than genes or even ethnicities through partial absorption of prestigious cultural elements of foreigners, especially if they were near to them. Greeks adopted a much more profoundly transformative thing, the alphabet, yet they didn't turn Phoenicians because of that. Now, I don't deny that there may be some cultural association with a real genetic/ethnic expansion, but I don't think we can safely say that expansion happened the way you propose (hierarchy, caste-like system, creation of metallurgy etc.), and was as influential in the long term (in terms of genetics and language) as you might think, especially if you're talking of decidedly non-IE regions like Copper Age Egypt, Sumer or Levant.

 

[Ygorcs]

Not an argument, and did you read what I wrote? They were explorers, just as they have been in other accepted parts of history.

I sincerely hope you're not implying that a complex set of socio-cultural behaviors and contingent attitudes and practices (generally summed up as "being explorers") are not passed on seamlessly and unchanged through a certain Y-DNA haplogroup, especially when you yourself say that those first R1b tribes were most probably very different, autosomally and even in terms of Mt-DNA distribution, to any modern Europeans (and West Asians, I'd add). That kind of thinking would really make seriously doubt your reasons for all these hypotheses and, more than that, your actual knowledge on this subject.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I sincerely hope you're not implying that a complex set of socio-cultural behaviors and contingent attitudes and practices (generally summed up as "being explorers") are not passed on seamlessly and unchanged through a certain Y-DNA haplogroup, especially when you yourself say that those first R1b tribes were most probably very different, autosomally and even in terms of Mt-DNA distribution, to any modern Europeans (and West Asians, I'd add). That kind of thinking would really make seriously doubt your reasons for all these hypotheses and, more than that, your actual knowledge on this subject.

I know Y DNA doesn’t encode for much given its relatively low mutation rate, which is necessary if it’s to be passed down virtually unchanged from father to son. Selection through the Y chromosome can take place, but it’s going to be a lot rarer than in autosomal chromosomes. I don’t at all think they were explorers because they were R1b, just that there is a correlation between the R1b tribes and that lifestyle. I didn’t mention anything of a genetic component, though I do believe it has over time been somehow selected for. But looking at the history of R1b and R1 tribes in general, can you argue against it?

Also, addressing previous points:

SHG received their light pigmentation from their partial EHG ancestry. As for GAC being so blonde - that one really stumps me, as I think it does everyone. Regardless, there is clearly a correlation between R1b tribes and rufosity - and no, I don’t believe this genetic component is encoded within the Y chromosome! Yamnaya being dark pigmented is unexpected to me, but if this really was the case (as the DNA suggests), I put this down to the CHG these R1b guys must have picked up on their way to the Steppe. I again would have thought there would have been lots of red hair amongst Yamnaya - in fact I am extremely confident of this, but ancient DNA doesn’t seem to be great at picking up red hair for some reason (one example - the British Beakers barely have any red hair, yet are said to have almost entirely replaced the previous Britons to match almost perfectly modern Briton ancestry, which we know to have a lot of red hair). End of story though - there is a very ancient connection, that is evident through examining distributions, between R1b tribes and red hair.

As to the doubt of R1b-folk being involved in some form of hierarchy, I think you’re forgetting what happened in Yamnaya, and later during its expansion into Europe. Check out the Insular Celtic Y DNA profile. Also, and you haven’t fully commented on this, Ramses II DID have red hair, and he almost certainly had pretty fair skin too (or at least I could never imagine someone with red hair and dark olive skin, as the Egyptian portraits suggest his skin would have been).

As for the Swastika - there is a clear correlation with R1 people going back all the way to the Paleolithic Ukraine, but I agree that at the end of the day it is just a symbol, and plenty of non-IE people have used it. My hypothesis starts out with pre-proto-IE though, but I get your point.

And as for the Americas - surely you can see it can’t be a coincidence that they happened to develop the exact same symbol. They clearly saw it from somewhere, and it’s unlikely to be from across the Bering Strait given the earliest in the Americas are actually in South America iirc, but there’s always that possibility - but then the Swastika would have to be ******* old (Ma’lta-ish old).

How do you personally explain the clear Caucasoid red hair on Peruvian mummies though? That is a minor point to everything I believe in, but it’s by far the most fantastical, and if it’s true, the element of disbelief before evidence should be taken away from consideration.

 

[IronSide]

I was wrong to Mr ToBeOrNotToBe .. I bombarded his thread with nonsense, I apologise and ask if my posts can be removed.

Even if you're a tr0ll this was not the right way to address you. And it seems there are some issues you thought with at least the faint smell of logic. But most of the rest is still madness.

Sorry Dr. Eugenics

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I was wrong to Mr ToBeOrNotToBe .. I bombarded his thread with nonsense, I apologise and ask if my posts can be removed.

Even if you're a tr0ll this was not the right way to address you. And it seems there are some issues you thought with at least the faint smell of logic. But most of the rest is still madness.

Sorry Dr. Eugenics

Yeah okay - also I seriously have no idea why my title is Dr Eugenics too, but I can’t be bothered to change anything as I’m typing from a super slow iPad.

And I think all of it has the smell of logic

 

[Ygorcs]

The there's also signs of Swastikas being found in places like Peru as early as 300 AD, it just doesn't make any sense that they developed this independently. There's also the famous red-haired Chinchorro mummies, that Maciamo looked at (via Genetiker's analysis) and claimed the best fit of the European components was in Neolithic Ukraine. I also don't believe they developed farming independently - are we to believe all farming ultimately derives from the Middle East, except for that of the Americas? Because that's currently our best guess (there's debate as to whether Papuans invented their agriculture outside of any foreign influence too, but they're minor players). Is it really the case that after being hunter-gatherers for tens of thousands of years, in the space of a few thousand years farming had been adopted indepently in multiple places?

Also, consider things like metallurgy in South America - I don't believe they discovered that independently either.

But Swastikas and red-haired mummies are the real clinchers of outside influence for me. There's also blue eyed sculptures in all of these very places, but associating blue eyes solely with Indo-Europeans isn't fair. I don't know if the Amerindian mummies have been examined so as to deduce if they have naturally red hair, but whatever the case, the hair is definitely Caucasoid.
There MUST have been a maritime, red-haired people, who spread agriculture to hunter-gatherers in the Americas, or at least if they didn't, they found their way there. Coincidentally, the ancient Greeks associated red hair with the sea, but anecdote doesn't count for much.

Why do you think it just does not makes sense that Native Americans could have developed things like agriculture, metallurgy and even a simple and arguably archetypal, sun-related symbol as a swastika? What is there that is so illogical and unlikely, huh? You just "do not believe" that they could've developed those things or is it based on some concrete evidences, not just some faith or intuition? Let's not even comment much about the obvious fact that those swastikas and supposedly "European" mummies of Peru (you know there is still a lot of controversy and no established consensus in the scientific community about those) are just way too late to explain the development of agriculture in South America, the first signs of which date to as early as 5000 BC. Some mummies and swastikas of the Late Antiquity won't cut it.

I find your readiness to accept the most unrealistic scenarios of ginger Middle Easterners in South America and your unwillingness to believe that Native Americans could have, just like Neolithic East Asians developed agriculture independently, had enough inventiveness and intelligence to find out some ideas and techniques by themselves in more than 10,000 years living in one place a bit... let us say to not be so offensive... suspicious. It's getting really difficult to try to believe that you aren't only speculating too much, but that you are led by a strong confirmation bias mixed with some unsettling doses of bigotry.

 

[Ygorcs]

I know Y DNA doesn’t encode for much given its relatively low mutation rate, which is necessary if it’s to be passed down virtually unchanged from father to son. Selection through the Y chromosome can take place, but it’s going to be a lot rarer than in autosomal chromosomes. I don’t at all think they were explorers because they were R1b, just that there is a correlation between the R1b tribes and that lifestyle. I didn’t mention anything of a genetic component, though I do believe it has over time been somehow selected for. But looking at the history of R1b and R1 tribes in general, can you argue against it?

Well, if you do not think those R1b tribes are related to the CHG admixture, since according to you this one may be the responsible for the dominant dark hair in Yamnaya people, then what do you think they were like (predominantly) in terms of autosomal DNA? The only admixture that is common to Bronze Age Levant, Egypt, Eastern Europe, Southeastern Europe and possibly Central Asia is some kind of CHG or CHG-related ancestry. What does the EHG part of SHG have to do with this narrative of Halaf R1b tribes in the Middle East? There is no appreciable EHG in the ancient Middle East until much later, and there is no significant sign of expansion of EHG admixture in the ancient samples from that region spreading as far south as Egypt. I really don't follow what you're exactly trying to say. You talk about R1b tribes, if such a thing ever existed as one common ethnicity significantly distinct from surrounding cultures, but you don't make it clear what you think those R1b were like genetically. Believing they had a prevalence of a given Y-DNA haplogroup is not enough. They apparently were not CHG nor EEF in your opinion, but they also can't have been simply EHG. Then... Which autosomal admixture do you think they spread to other regions, what they were like autosomally, what specific genetic impact of those R1b tribes can we see as a common feature of the genetic history of regions as far as India, Egypt and North Europe (indicating they may have come from one and the same demographic event)?

 

[davef]

@ToBe
Why do you think the native South Americans weren't capable of a Neolithic revolution? And a good amount of native North American tribes adopted farming as well.

If that isn't your view and I misunderstood, i apologize in advance

 

[Ygorcs]

Microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair originally was red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads.^[70] This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the deity Seth, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth."^[71]

Seth, amongst other things, was the storm god of the ancient Egyptians, but tellingly also that of foreigners. Seth was also seen as the same god as the Hittite storm god Teshub, AND was associated with the Hyksos (meaning "rulers of foreign lands").

If Ramses II actually had red hair, which he did, it strongly points to R1b ancestry somewhere along the line. If, like you’ve hypothesised, R1b was involved in Chalcolithic Mesopotamia, it shouldn’t be a surprise that he potentially derives his ancestry from an Asiatic group of invaders.

Why on earth are you trying to substantiate your claim about Halaf culture and Early-Mid Neolithic R1b peoples (you're talking about R1b getting into the steppes, right? That sets a latest date of around 5000 BCE to your hypothesis) by talking about a man and historic migrations of the Late Bronze Age some 4000 years later? That's anachronism at its best (or worst), and it also of course means that you're comparing peoples that were most certainly distinct not just culturally, but also genetically. That would be like believing that the migrations of Syrians in the present Civil War must be strongly correlated and even prove something about the invasions of Assyrians and Amorites in Early Bronze Age Mesopotamia. LOL

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Why do you think it just does not makes sense that Native Americans could have developed things like agriculture, metallurgy and even a simple and arguably archetypal, sun-related symbol as a swastika? What is there that is so illogical and unlikely, huh? You just "do not believe" that they could've developed those things or is it based on some concrete evidences, not just some faith or intuition? I find your unwillingness to believe that Native Americans could have, just like Neolithic East Asians developed agriculture independently, had enough inventiveness and intelligence to find out some ideas and techniques by themselves in more than 10,000 years living in one place a bit... let us say to not be so offensive... suspicious. It's getting really difficult to try to believe that you aren't only speculating too much, but that you are led by a strong confirmation bias mixed with some unsettling doses of bigotry.

I also don’t believe these R1b guys developed agriculture themselves, so do I see them as stupid?

For every Eurasian culture, it all traces back to the Middle East. Why should the Amerindians be any different? What made them emerge out of hunter-gatherers, as they had been for a great deal of time, roughly at the same time (roughly in a very broad sense, but in the grand scheme of human history, the agricultural revolution is relatively recent) as the ENF?

Same goes for metallurgy - in Eurasia it’s clearly spread by influence/people, but the Americas are special?

And the Swastika too, they also happened to use that particular geometric symbol for luck? Think about how many simple geometric shapes are possible to be drawn, and realise the almost infinitely small odds that they widely adopted this design independently, for roughly the same purpose no less.

What about the Chinchorro mummies, with Caucasoid chestnut hair and European DNA, as shown by (the very racist, agreed, but still truthful) Genetiker?

Also consider the mythology describing the Si-Te-Cah, who were described as red-headed, and living on rafts much like the one sailed by Thor Heyerdahl to the Americas, which perhaps was uncoincidentally via the Canary Current, and I’m sure you know how the Spaniards described some of the Guanches (yes, he used some relatively advanced ancient Egyptian sailing technology iirc, but the fact his team managed the trip definitely says something).

There is a mountain of evidence in my favour here, but you respond by claiming I’m being bigoted.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Well, if you do not think those R1b tribes are related to the CHG admixture, since according to you this one may be the responsible for the dominant dark hair in Yamnaya people, then what do you think they were like (predominantly) in terms of autosomal DNA? The only admixture that is common to Bronze Age Levant, Egypt, Eastern Europe, Southeastern Europe and possibly Central Asia is some kind of CHG or CHG-related ancestry. What does the EHG part of SHG have to do with this narrative of Halaf R1b tribes in the Middle East? There is no appreciable EHG in the ancient Middle East until much later, and there is no significant sign of expansion of EHG admixture in the ancient samples from that region spreading as far south as Egypt. I really don't follow what you're exactly trying to say. You talk about R1b tribes, if such a thing ever existed as one common ethnicity significantly distinct from surrounding cultures, but you don't make it clear what you think those R1b were like genetically. Believing they had a prevalence of a given Y-DNA haplogroup is not enough. They apparently were not CHG nor EEF in your opinion, but they also can't have been simply EHG. Then... Which autosomal admixture do you think they spread to other regions, what they were like autosomally, what specific genetic impact of those R1b tribes can we see as a common feature of the genetic history of regions as far as India, Egypt and North Europe (indicating they may have come from one and the same demographic event)?

I’m not speculating on what these guys where, but I’d suspect similar to Neolithic/pre-Neolithic Ukraine.

Also, the Copper Age was well before the Bronze Age.

SHG has nothing to do with these R1b guys, obviously. It’s not like they all spread from Scandinavia, and only Eastern Norway and Western Sweden remains pure.

I dont believe EHG is the final word on red hair, don’t link anything I’m saying to EHG.

Basically, there isn’t enough genetic evidence to say yet. But you don’t need genetics to attempt to track migrations (see my post above). Phylogeny is one way to do this with a relative lack of ancient samples, and it’s the best understanding I could possibly utilise at this stage.

@ToBe
Why do you think the native South Americans weren't capable of a Neolithic revolution? And a good amount of native North American tribes adopted farming as well.

If that isn't your view and I misunderstood, i apologize in advance

Check my post above

 

[ROS]

Overcoming the negative that reminds us of the esvastica of World War 2, we must recognize that it is a symbol, possibly representing the sun, and that it extends from India to the Iberian Peninsula, it is possible that it is correlated with R1B? or with the Indo-Europeans? Indian connection with the Iberian peninsula through the steppe or anatolia? or a mixture of the two that gave rise to the centum and satem languages?

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Why on earth are you trying to substantiate your claim about Halaf culture and Early-Mid Neolithic R1b peoples (you're talking about R1b getting into the steppes, right? That sets a latest date of around 5000 BCE to your hypothesis) by talking about a man and historic migrations of the Late Bronze Age some 4000 years later? That's anachronism at its best (or worst), and it also of course means that you're comparing peoples that were most certainly distinct not just culturally, but also genetically. That would be like believing that the migrations of Syrians in the present Civil War must be strongly correlated and even prove something about the invasions of Assyrians and Amorites in Early Bronze Age Mesopotamia. LOL

I agree, I did realize this by the way, but I can’t type everything. But it just shows that R1b was present in West Asia for a long time. But I agree, just because it was around around the time of Ozymandias, doesn’t mean it was during the Copper Age. I’ve outlined my argument about this in previous posts on this thread, you haven’t truly addressed my strong points.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Overcoming the negative that reminds us of the esvastica of World War 2, we must recognize that it is a symbol, possibly representing the sun, and that it extends from India to the Iberian Peninsula, it is possible that it is correlated with R1B? or with the Indo-Europeans? Indian-Iberian peninsula connection through the steppe or anatolia? or a mixture of the two that gave rise to the centum and satem languages?

It massively predates the Indo-Europeans, but is best associated with them. The oldest Swastika is in Paleolithic Ukraine, and there are many in the Copper Age Balkans and Copper Age Mesopotamia.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Would kill for an update of opinion by @Maciamo (does this @ thing work?), if he can be arsed to read my comments lol

 

[hrvclv]

Personally, I don't find this Ubaid to Steppe hypothesis that ridiculous (the red hair part excepted). Tribes of mesolithic R1(b) could have hunted their game in vast expanses of land between the Caspian, the Urals, and the Altai, neighboring Q people to the east, and I people to the west. Some of those tribes may have got around the south Caspian (cp the now-famous R-Z2103) then back up to the Steppe (where more R1b cousins were already waiting for them). What happened on the way remains for us to guess, but they did pick their CHG somewhere along the trail, didn't they ?

What baffles me, though, is this : Ubaid and neighbors BUILT extensive, and elaborate, houses, of clay bricks and timber. It's a bit strange to imagine people going through this comparatively "developed" stage and then ending up roaming the steppe in bark-covered wagons north of the Caucasus.

Perhaps the R1b newcomers just stopped by without mixing much. In the more densely populated areas, they remained "cultural outsiders" alongside more sedentary pops. They grazed their cows, perhaps feared or fearing, and moved on. That would have been before writing emerged anyway, so no records of their stopover were kept, and they went unremembered. They picked elements of culture, left a few of theirs, but only conquered and mixed when they got to more sparsely populated areas in the marches of the Caucasus.

This does not rule out the possibility that some Mesopotamian influences reached Maykop independently, eg through Leila Tepe. "Innovations" like the Leila Tepe kurgans later became popular on the steppe.

@ToBe : In my opinion, the true neolithic and copper age sailors were not R1b, but J2a - from Turkey to Crete, then to Sicily, Tuscany, Southern France, Spain...

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Personally, I don't find this Ubaid to Steppe hypothesis that ridiculous (the red hair part excepted). Tribes of mesolithic R1(b) could have hunted their game in vast expanses of land between the Caspian, the Urals, and the Altai, neighboring Q people to the east, and I people to the west. Some of those tribes may have got around the south Caspian (cp the now-famous R-Z2103) then back up to the Steppe (where more R1b cousins were already waiting for them). What happened on the way remains for us to guess, but they did pick their CHG somewhere along the trail, didn't they ?
What baffles me, though, is this : Ubaid and neighbors BUILT extensive, and elaborate, houses, of clay bricks and timber. It's a bit strange to imagine people going through this comparatively "developed" stage and then ending up roaming the steppe in bark-covered wagons north of the Caucasus.
Perhaps the R1b newcomers just stopped by without mixing much. In the more densely populated areas, they remained "cultural outsiders" alongside more sedentary pops. They grazed their cows, perhaps feared or fearing, and moved on. That would have been before writing emerged anyway, so no records of their stopover were kept, and they went unremembered. They picked elements of culture, left a few of theirs, but only conquered and mixed when they got to more sparsely populated areas in the marches of the Caucasus.
This does not rule out the possibility that some Mesopotamian influences reached Maykop independently, eg through Leila Tepe. "Innovations" like the Leila Tepe kurgans later became popular on the steppe.
@ToBe : In my opinion, the true neolithic and copper age sailors were not R1b, but J2a - from Turkey to Crete, then to Sicily, Tuscany, Southern France, Spain...

I don't see why the red hair bit can't be true, but it's a small detail. But, for example, try to explain how Ashkenazim (like my grandfather and brother as two examples) can have such high levels of red hair? If Ashkenazim ORIGINALLY derive a lot of their ancestry from the Kura-Araxes expansion, which I strongly suspect given the Y DNA patterns, that clearly aligns with the idea of R1b once being prominent in the region.
R1b1 would probably have stemmed from Anatolia by the way, not Iran.
Also, the Ubaid point you made isn't an issue - in the later but similar Uruk period, as I mentioned earlier on, clear social divisions were made between the peasant farmers (Wikipedia's words not mine) and herders (and also fishermen apparently). Also, as I said earlier on, in the ancient Middle East the rulers and heros were associated with taming animals. Maykop, similar to Uruk, was predominantly sedentary, as another counterpoint, yet Yamanya wasn't I don't believe. Also, horses were present in Maykop but not prominent at all as compared to things like pigs and cattle - unlike in Yamnaya, where the horse is much more common.
I imagine the pastoral elite of Maykop moving on to the Steppes, and leaving the "peasants" behind. They would have imposed their rule onto whoever they subjugated (EHG), who would become the new "peasants" and provided a lot of the food. Such a class system is entirely natural from invasion and it's constantly seen among IE expansions. I think the population of Yamnaya not in Kurgans would have been more "peasant" like, and so more EHG and less CHG than those in the kurgans (unless there has also been DNA taken from plenty of non-kurgan samples). The Y DNA being so overwhelmingly R1b, yet the CHG-like admixture being roughly 50%, helps to explain the admixture event being male dominated. This idea of subjugated peasants reminds very strongly of the Spartans and the helots, but also pretty much everywhere the I-E imposed their rule. Of course, there was always mixing - mainly through taking "peasant" women.
These R1b guys could have either moved on to the Steppe of their own will, and the power vacuum that formed lead to the Kura-Araxes expansion, or the K-A expansion could have forced them onto the Steppes. I'm undecided on this.
tl;dr R1b pastoralists (and probably metallurgists) originally from Anatolia subjugated farmers from Halaf to Maykop, and later the EHG in Yamnaya. This subjugation basically continued during the Yamnaya expansion. Why they moved about isn't fully clear, but when they moved, the culture they left behind would be replaced with that of foreign tribes, or there simply would have been assimilation (as would eventually be the case in Sparta).
Basically, R1b (and later R1a during their expansion period) was the ultimate subjugators of peoples. Should be no surprise there.