The Chalcolithic, Swastika, and pre-proto-Indo-Europeans in Mesopotamia

Personally, I don't find this Ubaid to Steppe hypothesis that ridiculous (the red hair part excepted). Tribes of mesolithic R1(b) could have hunted their game in vast expanses of land between the Caspian, the Urals, and the Altai, neighboring Q people to the east, and I people to the west. Some of those tribes may have got around the south Caspian (cp the now-famous R-Z2103) then back up to the Steppe (where more R1b cousins were already waiting for them). What happened on the way remains for us to guess, but they did pick their CHG somewhere along the trail, didn't they ?

What baffles me, though, is this : Ubaid and neighbors BUILT extensive, and elaborate, houses, of clay bricks and timber. It's a bit strange to imagine people going through this comparatively "developed" stage and then ending up roaming the steppe in bark-covered wagons north of the Caucasus.

Perhaps the R1b newcomers just stopped by without mixing much. In the more densely populated areas, they remained "cultural outsiders" alongside more sedentary pops. They grazed their cows, perhaps feared or fearing, and moved on. That would have been before writing emerged anyway, so no records of their stopover were kept, and they went unremembered. They picked elements of culture, left a few of theirs, but only conquered and mixed when they got to more sparsely populated areas in the marches of the Caucasus.

This does not rule out the possibility that some Mesopotamian influences reached Maykop independently, eg through Leila Tepe. "Innovations" like the Leila Tepe kurgans later became popular on the steppe.

@ToBe : In my opinion, the true neolithic and copper age sailors were not R1b, but J2a - from Turkey to Crete, then to Sicily, Tuscany, Southern France, Spain...
Yeah. I don't know anything about those cultures but if you're thriving where you are and worked hard to build up your territory, why would you pack things up, leave and go back to square one with weaker technology? Why leave it all behind?
 
Yeah. I don't know anything about those cultures but if you're thriving where you are and worked hard to build up your territory, why would you pack things up, leave and go back to square one with weaker technology? Why leave it all behind?
True. It could simply be expansion, or it could be the pressure from foreign tribes. We can't know. But that doesn't disprove anything and really it's clutching at straws, as we know this sort of thing happened to Yamnaya itself.

Also the weaker technology bit isn't true - Maykop was extremely advanced for example, especially in metallurgy.
 
I also don’t believe these R1b guys developed agriculture themselves, so do I see them as stupid?

For every Eurasian culture, it all traces back to the Middle East. Why should the Amerindians be any different? What made them emerge out of hunter-gatherers, as they had been for a great deal of time, roughly at the same time (roughly in a very broad sense, but in the grand scheme of human history, the agricultural revolution is relatively recent) as the ENF?

This is just not true, nor is it a historically sound argument. You need to demonstrate that it must have happened, not that it "could've happened" this way. Unless you have at least a modicum of evidence that there was Eurasian-American contacts, let alone in South America and not in North America (which is much closer to Asia), this kind of argument is based on a complete phallacy which is basically "if something was true for one continent (Eurasia is just one landmass) then it must be true for the entire world".

Also, you're wrong that in Eurasia it all traces back to the Middle East. The East Asian Neolithic was, until any strong amount of contrary evidences are found, developed independently and based on different plant domesticates and techniques. Not even in Eurasia, which is one easily interconnected mass, does agriculture seem to have been created just once. In West Africa and in Papua New Guinea, there are also significant evidences that agriculture may have been developed from scratch, independently, with different domestication and cultivation processes, even though we can't be sure that they hadn't learned about the existence of some peoples who lived as farmers and emulated them. And that's in the Old World, easily linked to the Middle East.

And you want us to assume that both agriculture AND metallurgy (you know those two inventions in the Americas appeared thousands of years apart from each, right?) came with the same group of Near Eastern explorers? How on earth would they have done that feat if we all know that agriculture started in the Americas in Peru, in the Pacific Coast, and spread initially along the Andean region and the adjacent coast, so the Canary Current couldn't have played absolutely no role in that development for the obvious fact that that region can't be reached at all by the Atlantic ocean? There are so many holes in your "story" that it's even tiresome to address all of them.

Besides, for very obvious reasons that I won't bother discussing exactly because of their being self-evident, there is no way the American Neolithic would've been triggered at circa 5000 BC by an expansion that supposedly was just beginning around that time or even later (as per your hypothesis focused on Halaf/Hassuna-Samarra) in the Middle East itself, but that's not even my main point, which is: how the heck would agriculture be spread in South America by a Middle Eastern population, yet they brought absolutely no domesticated plant to the Americas, and agriculture there had nothing to do with the food staples and techniques used in the Middle East and instead was completely based on local plants that had to be domesticated and even artificially developed from scratch (e.g. potato, maize)? Did Native Americans depend on an "idea", that can obviously happen, along thousands of years, in any sufficiently complex and dense tribal population, brought to them by foreigners who somehow made no direct economic impact at all, instead relying entirely on plants that they didn't even know and had been known and gathered by the American natives for milennia? That's just nonsense.

Oh, and it's not just that. Did you notice that, apart from those still very controversial and highly inconclusive samples of Chincohorro mummies, there is absolutely no sign of European-like or more broadly West Eurasian-like ancestry at all in any part of the Americas, much less so in South America, among ancient Pre-Columbian samples and full-blooded Amerindians these days? Of course you did, but the Chinchorro mummies somehow (maybe because they're supposedly oh so European) seem to matter much more than hundreds and thousands of other data. We are now led to believe that somehow the Chinchorro mummies represent this "original" farmer and metal-working population, they just vanished from history elsewhere and later, and curiously enough all the great civilizations of the Americas were created by 100% native hunter-gatherer ancestry. Funny, those explorers were apparently very unsucessful there.

So, let's recap everything that was speculated in this thread about the Americas: R1b explorers came from West Asia to South America along the Canary currents, but nonetheless they miraculously arrived in the Pacific coast, spread agriculture AND metallurgy from there (two highly advanced technologies for the Amerindian natives that would've given these explorers and their allies an extremely important competitive advantage) and left some European DNA in a few Chincorro mummies... and, well, and they basically, unlike any other pioneer farmer and metal-working population, vanished without a trace in South America or North America and were completely replaced by those primitive hunter-gatherers to whom they so kindly taught agriculture and metallurgy. Is that even remotely believable?

Since you like to make comparisons about Eurasia and the Americas as if the dynamics were necessarily the same everywhere, let's just investigate this basic thing: where in Eurasia did a population that brought farming AND metallurgy to some region fail to expand, spread ther genes and leave some long-term genetic influence in the regional population, instead being completely engulfed by the earlier hunter-gatherer population to the point that they had virtually zero genetic impact in the very region where they were so advanced, and their males apparently had no advantage at all over the hunter-gatherer aboriginals, leaving virtually no sign of R1b in Pre-Columbian South America and North America (R1b, instead, is found among tribal Native Americans only in the northeastern part of North America). Honestly, it sounds completely unrealistic - and to say that there is a "mountain of evidence" based on one myth and a few mummies that haven't even had any conclusive study by a reknown professional lab of paleogenetics (sorry, Genetiker) is, frankly, just wishful thinking.

You ask if metallurgy and agriculture could've spread in the Americas except by influence of other people. Of course it couldn't. The problem is that you seem to be forgetting that an indigenous American population could well have been and most probably was that "other people" who influenced others and spread those innovations that actually were developed more than once in the history of humankind because they're in fact not as "unbelievable" and impossible to be conceived as you seem to think. Unless you demonstrate to me not only that long-distance navigation between the Middle East and PACIFIC (yes, that's where agriculture and later metallurgy appeared and spread from here in the Americas) South/Meso America, but that and how it is conceivable that an advanced foreign civilization left a huge cultural/ideological impact but somehow brought no Middle Eastern food staples and had no big genetic expanion in the continent, it all sounds like a very wild speculation, even more so than the other points you claim.

As for Ramesses II and his red hair, well, honestly I do not see any reason to suppose that there would still be any significant correlation between R1b-majority tribes (they wouldn't even exist anymore, not in heavily unmixed form, by the Late Bronze Age) and having red hair by the time Ramesses II lived. So I think his red hair is actually a quite irrelevant issue, especially if you end up being correct about your Halaf/Hassuna-Samarra hypothesis, since that would mean that the bulk of that R1b "ginger" expansion would have happened around 3000-4000 years before Ramesses II lived and would have meant a wide dispersal of those peoples and eventually thousands of years of gradual mixing with the natives they conquered. Besides, there were of course later expansions in the same region (Uruk, Semites, Hurrians), diluting that earlier R1b genetic impact in the region. Ramesses II lived in a time when any such relation, if it ever existed, would be masked by milennia of mixing, population displacements, migrations, with the genes fo red hair spreading to other populations, being perhaps subject to local selective sweeps and becoming unconnected with just one specific R1b-dominant population. In other words, that is to say that if Ramesses II was red-haired that of course does not mean he has anything to do with that supposed R1b expansion of a long time before he was born.
 
This is just not true, nor is it a historically sound argument. You need to demonstrate that it must have happened, not that it "could've happened" this way. Unless you have at least a modicum of evidence that there was Eurasian-American contacts, let alone in South America and not in North America (which is much closer to Asia), this kind of argument is based on a complete phallacy which is basically "if something was true for one continent (Eurasia is just one landmass) then it must be true for the entire world".

Also, you're wrong that in Eurasia it all traces back to the Middle East. The East Asian Neolithic was, until any strong amount of contrary evidences are found, developed independently and based on different plant domesticates and techniques. Not even in Eurasia, which is one easily interconnected mass, does agriculture seem to have been created just once. In West Africa and in Papua New Guinea, there are also significant evidences that agriculture may have been developed from scratch, independently, with different domestication and cultivation processes, even though we can't be sure that they hadn't learned about the existence of some peoples who lived as farmers and emulated them. And that's in the Old World, easily linked to the Middle East.

And you want us to assume that both agriculture AND metallurgy (you know those two inventions in the Americas appeared thousands of years apart from each, right?) came with the same group of Near Eastern explorers? How on earth would they have done that feat if we all know that agriculture started in the Americas in Peru, in the Pacific Coast, and spread initially along the Andean region and the adjacent coast, so the Canary Current couldn't have played absolutely no role in that development for the obvious fact that that region can't be reached at all by the Atlantic ocean? There are so many holes in your "story" that it's even tiresome to address all of them.

Besides, for very obvious reasons that I won't bother discussing exactly because of their being self-evident, there is no way the American Neolithic would've been triggered at circa 5000 BC by an expansion that supposedly was just beginning around that time or even later (as per your hypothesis focused on Halaf/Hassuna-Samarra) in the Middle East itself, but that's not even my main point, which is: how the heck would agriculture be spread in South America by a Middle Eastern population, yet they brought absolutely no domesticated plant to the Americas, and agriculture there had nothing to do with the food staples and techniques used in the Middle East and instead was completely based on local plants that had to be domesticated and even artificially developed from scratch (e.g. potato, maize)? Did Native Americans depend on an "idea", that can obviously happen, along thousands of years, in any sufficiently complex and dense tribal population, brought to them by foreigners who somehow made no direct economic impact at all, instead relying entirely on plants that they didn't even know and had been known and gathered by the American natives for milennia? That's just nonsense.

Oh, and it's not just that. Did you notice that, apart from those still very controversial and highly inconclusive samples of Chincohorro mummies, there is absolutely no sign of European-like or more broadly West Eurasian-like ancestry at all in any part of the Americas, much less so in South America, among ancient Pre-Columbian samples and full-blooded Amerindians these days? Of course you did, but the Chinchorro mummies somehow (maybe because they're supposedly oh so European) seem to matter much more than hundreds and thousands of other data. We are now led to believe that somehow the Chinchorro mummies represent this "original" farmer and metal-working population, they just vanished from history elsewhere and later, and curiously enough all the great civilizations of the Americas were created by 100% native hunter-gatherer ancestry. Funny, those explorers were apparently very unsucessful there.

So, let's recap everything that was speculated in this thread about the Americas: R1b explorers came from West Asia to South America along the Canary currents, but nonetheless they miraculously arrived in the Pacific coast, spread agriculture AND metallurgy from there (two highly advanced technologies for the Amerindian natives that would've given these explorers and their allies an extremely important competitive advantage) and left some European DNA in a few Chincorro mummies... and, well, and they basically, unlike any other pioneer farmer and metal-working population, vanished without a trace in South America or North America and were completely replaced by those primitive hunter-gatherers to whom they so kindly taught agriculture and metallurgy. Is that even remotely believable?

Since you like to make comparisons about Eurasia and the Americas as if the dynamics were necessarily the same everywhere, let's just investigate this basic thing: where in Eurasia did a population that brought farming AND metallurgy to some region fail to expand, spread ther genes and leave some long-term genetic influence in the regional population, instead being completely engulfed by the earlier hunter-gatherer population to the point that they had virtually zero genetic impact in the very region where they were so advanced, and their males apparently had no advantage at all over the hunter-gatherer aboriginals, leaving virtually no sign of R1b in Pre-Columbian South America and North America (R1b, instead, is found among tribal Native Americans only in the northeastern part of North America). Honestly, it sounds completely unrealistic - and to say that there is a "mountain of evidence" based on one myth and a few mummies that haven't even had any conclusive study by a reknown professional lab of paleogenetics (sorry, Genetiker) is, frankly, just wishful thinking.

You ask if metallurgy and agriculture could've spread in the Americas except by influence of other people. Of course it couldn't. The problem is that you seem to be forgetting that an indigenous American population could well have been and most probably was that "other people" who influenced others and spread those innovations that actually were developed more than once in the history of humankind because they're in fact not as "unbelievable" and impossible to be conceived as you seem to think. Unless you demonstrate to me not only that long-distance navigation between the Middle East and PACIFIC (yes, that's where agriculture and later metallurgy appeared and spread from here in the Americas) South/Meso America, but that and how it is conceivable that an advanced foreign civilization left a huge cultural/ideological impact but somehow brought no Middle Eastern food staples and had no big genetic expanion in the continent, it all sounds like a very wildspeculation, even more so than the other points you claim.

You skip over all my strong points and attack my weak ones that don’t actually compromise my strong ones, but okay, I’ll try and answer...

I based my answer of the spread of Eurasian agriculture on various maps I’d seen (from reliable sources), but a quick Google search yields many other maps that indeed show the Papuans and East Asians independently came up with agriculture. This indicates a split opinion, and I don’t know enough about this particular area to comment, but I will just say - why does agriculture all around the world seem to spring up at roughly the same time all at once (humans had been hunter-gatherers for many tens of thousands of years, yet only in the space of 5,000 years suddenly multiple peoples learnt agriculture? And why only in four locations, why not a lot more (in this multiple inventions theory, it’s in the Middle East, East Asia, Papua New Guinea and the America’s (some seem to split the Americas into three separate inventions in North America, Mesoamerica, and South America respectively)))? This is a valid question that puts doubt into the idea of multiple inventions of agriculture, BUT, I agree, it is very far from evidence. I see that as likely, but it’s just a calculated hunch based on the line of questioning I outlined above - nothing more, so yes, point taken.

Agriculture and metallurgy seems to be separated by about 1,000 years based on recent speculation, more conservatively at roughly 2,000 years or more. Now assuming (!) this idea of foreign influence is correct, this leaves two possibilities - either we are missing archaeological evidence, or there have been multiple crossings of the Pacific/Atlantic. Again, just speculation. Agreed.

BUT, you still have to explain the Chinchorro mummies (there are other mummies, but these are the best) and the Swastikas. That’s the only hard evidence I really have, and you’re right, I was speculating heavily, and I admit that.

But clearly partially Caucasoid mummies, with potential DNA evidence (Genetiker’s analysis has rarely been incorrect) that match no modern European profile (ruling out contamination), and the Swastika is enough evidence for me. This kind of topic, based on truth or simply misunderstanding, is too controversial to be held to scientific scrutiny, so we won’t ever have scientific consensus, but until the mummies and the Swastika can be accounted for, I will continue to believe in some form of pre-Norse contact with the Americas. They could have spread from South East Asia, as not only have very old subclades of R1(b?) been found in that area, but Genetiker’s analysis showed Indonesian admixture in the mummies.

Besides, many people (including Reich, based on some DNA evidence) accept the Polynesians made it, so I don’t see why it’s so outrageous a more advanced group from Western Eurasia could have. But Swastika and mummies, basically. Other things (e.g. local legends and Colonial reports) should really be considered too, but they’re no way near as strong as these two points.
 
You skip over all my strong points and attack my weak ones that don’t actually compromise my strong ones, but okay, I’ll try and answer...

Of course, my dear. That's what is to be expected in any debate about a certain hypothesis: the strong points that seem plausible or correct are accepted or at least assumed to be worthy of being considered correct until more evidence is found, but the focus must be on the weak and probably incorrect points because if they are too many and too then the whole hypothesis needs to be reformulated and improved. If a hypothesis has strong points but is also full of holes and even some very evident missteps, then it's not a good hypothesis - not yet. Are you trying to present your hypothesis, discuss it and hopefully improve it to make it closer to the truth and a more serious contender, or are you just trying to receive uncritical compliments and naive acceptance of everything you say? Sorry, but that probably won't happen here. You have some really nice points in your hypothesis as far as the earliest period of Middle East Neolithic cultures is concerned, but after that there is a lot of baseless speculation, leaps of logic and even wrong assumptions. You can improve on what you have if you make a self-critical review of your hypothesis and get rid of undemonstrated speculations and some biases.
 
Besides, many people (including Reich, based on some DNA evidence) accept the Polynesians made it, so I don’t see why it’s so outrageous a more advanced group from Western Eurasia could have. But Swastika and mummies, basically. Other things (e.g. local legends and Colonial reports) should really be considered too, but they’re no way near as strong as these two points.

What's your source that they accept the Polynesians made it? AFAIK the latest genetic studies have ruled that possibility out. What was really found out and confirmed by the latest and more advanced analysis of ancient and modern American DNA is that there is a Melanesian (Onge-related) element in some parts of South America, but only in the Amazon and not in the Pacific Coast, which is where we'd expect any direct contact with Polynesians. Of course, that minor Melanesian element is also very distinct from the Polynesian DNA makeup. Also, a recent study on the ancient DNA of the Polynesian population of Easter Island again debunked that hypothesis because they found absolutely zero Native American-related ancestry in those early individuals (unlike modern natives of Easter Island, what indicates that the Native American introgression happened after European colonization). As for R1 in Southeast Asia, the haplogroup P is assumed to have appeared in Southeast Asia, and some very old subclades may have been found, but it just can't be those Neolithic R1b explorers from the Near East exactly because they are very diverged and old subclades that are dozens of thousands of years apart. So, again, there is no direct correlation at all.
 
What's your source that they accept the Polynesians made it? AFAIK the latest genetic studies have ruled that possibility out. What was really found out and confirmed by the latest and more advanced analysis of ancient and modern American DNA is that there is a Melanesian (Onge-related) element in some parts of South America, but only in the Amazon and not in the Pacific Coast, which is where we'd expect any direct contact with Polynesians. Of course, that minor Melanesian element is also very distinct from the Polynesian DNA makeup. Also, a recent study on the ancient DNA of the Polynesian population of Easter Island again debunked that hypothesis because they found absolutely zero Native American-related ancestry in those early individuals (unlike modern natives of Easter Island, what indicates that the Native American introgression happened after European colonization). As for R1 in Southeast Asia, the haplogroup P is assumed to have appeared in Southeast Asia, and some very old subclades may have been found, but it just can't be those Neolithic R1b explorers from the Near East exactly because they are very diverged and old subclades that are dozens of thousands of years apart. So, again, there is no direct correlation at all.

That was a tidbit in what I wrote, point being you can't explain the Swastika and Chinchorro mummies as they're solid evidence.

All it shows without further evidence is that they were elites in the society, or just outsiders, as "commoners" wouldn't have been mummified.

Almost everything else is speculative, but that these (presumably R1b) folk were there - I think there's enough evidence to accept it.

But if you disagree, feel free to explain the Swastika and the Chinchorro mummies, as they're my two strongest pieces of evidence.
 
That was a tidbit in what I wrote, point being you can't explain the Swastika and Chinchorro mummies as they're solid evidence.

All it shows without further evidence is that they were elites in the society, or just outsiders, as "commoners" wouldn't have been mummified.

Almost everything else is speculative, but that these (presumably R1b) folk were there - I think there's enough evidence to accept it.

But if you disagree, feel free to explain the Swastika and the Chinchorro mummies, as they're my two strongest pieces of evidence.

Well, at best you can say that there were West Eurasian people there. You have no reason, not even the weakest evidence to say they were "your" R1b explorer folks. Especially if, since we're talking of R1b, you take into account the genetic evidence, because to state all of that and frame into one common narrative of "R1b explorers everywhere from Europe to Southeast Asia to Americas", you'd have first to demonstrate one very basic thing: what kind of main genetic makeup (admixtures, but even Y-DNA in the case of the more far-fetched speculations like about Southeast Asia and Americas) this people had, if and how there is a common sign of their supposedly very influential and advanced presence and genetic impact in regions as different as Western Europe and South America, Egypt and Southeast Asia (there is no common thread, you know). It's all too easy to create a lot of scenarios for this adventurous and glorious expansion without even having established what kind of population we must be looking for. If they could have been basically anything (they weren't exactly CHG, nor EHG, nor EEF, nor...), then we can't even test this hypothesis.

By the way, don't rely too much on those Chinchorro mummies: their sample had very poor quality for fine-scale analysis, and even the unreplicated and frankly fringe analysis made by Genetiker estimated that they had a European ancestry more linked to Neolithic Western Europe (that is, basically WHG-admixed ANF - EEF), yet you don't seem to think that EEF was particularly associated with this great "R1b folk".

A few mummies with red hair (not that Chinchorro mummies had it - it was brown -, anyway) are not strong evidence, sorry - and if they were, it would still be a big leap to go from there to create a whole fantastic story about "explorers who first developed metallurgy, created caste-like societies in all the world and sailed as far away as South America to bring the hunter-gatherers agriculture (without any Old World staple, curiously) and metallurgy (thousands of years later, some ships must've been too slow indeed lol) and then vanish in the thin air".

Otherwise, all you're proposing is that this people were somehow so powerful, advanced and strong, yet they vanished without a trace in a huge part of the world they conquered, and all they left were swastikas and some red hair in mummies. Not even the agricultural and metallurgical techniques and products they supposedly spread everywhere show commonalities in all those regions that would allow us to at least speculate about a common origin. Well, as you yourself seem to admit, it seems to me all you've got is an unproven assumption that R1b Middle Eastern folks were particularly more ginger than their neighbors, and swastikas (a very archetypal and, honestly, extremely simple and variable symbol - there are many distinct types of swastika, I hope you know that). That's just very insufficient to make so many categorical assumptions that go against so many other historical evidences and even common sense.
 
It is very enticing to make all sorts of theories about the swastika and it's spread. The reality is that we find the swastika in so many different and widespread cultures, that there is no doubt that the swastika, like the triskelion, is an archetypical and basic geometric figure of humanity.
 
I absolutely don't believe that just because the Swastika is a simple symbol (and yes I know there are variations), it is not unlikely that it was developed across the world independently. We have a lot of variation within the clear I-E sphere too, so that's not really a point.
There are basically infinite simple patterns that one could draw, why this one? And why always used for luck?
Also I still stick by the Chinchorro mummies thing (yes, I know most were chestnut haired - but some had red hair).
I also accept I made a lot of speculation about metallurgy and agriculture, and you're entirely correct there.
But just because there's no smoking-gun evidence that there was pre-Norse contact, doesn't mean that there isn't other evidence strongly pointing in that direction
 
Before we move to para-science.

LETS NOTICE THIS

The 2 oldest Swastikas in the world
ARE NOT IN MESSOPOTAMIA NEITHER IN MUIDDLE EAST.

THEY ARE AT VINCA AND AT UKRAINE (mezine)
in Europe

date from 9000-6000 BC

in fact from ancient to modern they go
Ukraine -> Vinca -> Sintashta

and although Mezine Ukraine's swastika looks like only for decoration
Vinca swastika seems as a symbol and not as decorationthank you
 

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