The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations.

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Ailchu said:
it would be a lot clearer if we had the genotypes. looked through the supplements but couldn't find them. if they were not homozygous for 45A2 their ***mentation probably was darker than regular modern people from near east.
Click to expand...


A smart person explained to me how and why the authors predicted the dark skin for the 3 samples.


Looking at the supplements, the studied ones (the EBA Kou01, Pta08 and MBA Log02) are AA on rs1426654 (SLC24A5) but CC and CG (overwhelmingly GG in contemporary Europeans) on rsrs16891982 (SLC45A2). But they checked other alleles that contribute to ***mentation as well, which the HIrisPLex model is based on. Check the Nuclear capture part of the supplement for more information. Either way, I believe that category implies dark-skinned by contemporary pan-European standards, obviously not by global standards.
Click to expand...
 
ThirdTerm said:
The three BA samples carried SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 typical among modern Europeans today. However, these individuals also carried OCA2, which is common among East Asians, and ASIP, which is associated with darker skin color in African Americans. This may be why the study's authors reached the following conclusion.
Click to expand...

if i understand it correctly, looking at the table of genotypes only 1 individual was heterozygous with the derived allele of SLC45A2 associated with light skin. the other 2 were homozygous with the ancestral allele.
 
real expert said:
A smart person explained to me how and why the authors predicted the dark skin for the 3 samples.
Click to expand...


i could imagine their skin color might have been similar to what we find in egypt today. if there was still ongoing selection for light skin in greece because of the change in nutrition then it is also likely that there was a similar selection throughout the near east and north africa. so when the ancient greeks compared their skin color to the northern barbarians and the egyptians then probably we should consider that those 2 groups were also darker ***mented than modern ones.
 
Phenotyping the ancient world: The physical appearance and ancestry of very degraded samples from a chalcolithic human remains-“Therefore, the aim of the present work was the molecular study of a very critical sample, a Chalcolithic (3480 ± 30 YBP) individual found in Asturias, Northern Iberia, intending to discover a possible geographical ancestry for these remains, and the inference of a group of feasible EVCs (hair, skin and iris ***mentation).Given that ancient DNA is often highly damaged, two different methodologies were used in order to determine the biogeographical ancestry of the individual: mitochondrial DNA (HVR-I and -II) and Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms typing. Despite the antiquity of the samples, the genetic information recovered proved of great value. We could determine that the individual had a European ancestry, blond hair, light skin color and brown eyes. Such outcome reveals that it is possible to obtain not only biogeographical but also phenotypic information from a very critical sample"

This sample comes from the Bronze Age in Asturias (northern Spain) and corresponds exactly to the Griffin warrior dating in Greece. As you can see, this gentleman had fair skin, blond hair and brown eyes, however we have a perfectly preserved mummy from the Argar culture (southeastern Spain) that was buried with his son (4-5 years old). Both have black hair with large braids that reached the waist in the case of the man- During the Bronze Age the phenotypes were very varied but light skin was already a fixed feature for all European regions
 
Sometimes I think no one reads my posts, so I just won't bother in the future. Don't read the papers, don't read the supplements or look at the tables, don't do your research or at least follow the links I post. Believe whatever nonsense you hear on other sites where the morons also don't do their homework.

I said that two of the samples were completely ancestral for SLC45A2 and one, the Cretan one, was heterozygous. I said it innumerable times. That makes it highly unlikely they were fair.

I know that this latest Hirisplex is for use all round the world. THAT's why I linked to the paper with PICTURES of the skin color for each designation used. THERE IS NO GUESSWORK involved.

I guess, as always, no one can even be counted on to click links. These are the skin colors in the Hirisplex system.

nRGjGIw.png


Is it finally clear what they mean???
 
Ailchu said:
if i understand it correctly, looking at the table of genotypes only 1 individual was heterozygous with the derived allele of SLC45A2 associated with light skin. the other 2 were homozygous with the ancestral allele.
Click to expand...


Indeed but someone should have a look
At the genomes of Log4 and Mik15
From what i saw in another thread they were homozygous for the G derived allele of slc45a2
G/G...
 
OMG. They probably weren't used because they didn't have results for too many of the other snps involved. ***mentation is CUMULATIVE.
 
Angela said:
OMG. They probably weren't used because they didn't have results for too many of the other snps involved. ***mentation is CUMULATIVE.
Click to expand...

i failed to understand why people from central / northern europe
are so shocked that those bronze age greeks were not pale like modern day northwest europeans
it isn't shocking for me given where they lived, climate etc.....

so yes autosomally speking they were southern europeans :shocked:
though log2 and log4 resemble more south balkan population than classical med
because of the steppe % they had ...
overall it look like there was continuity in south balkan region ( or those just happen to have the same % of components )


those remains in G25 ( davidski)

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Helladic_MBA:Log02[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #81FF00, align: right"]0.02523331[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #87FF00, align: right"]0.02642431[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #89FF00, align: right"]0.02680568[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8AFF00, align: right"]0.02711457[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8EFF00, align: right"]0.02791138[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #91FF00, align: right"]0.02845305[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #96FF00, align: right"]0.02943631[/TD]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9AFF00, align: right"]0.03011735[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9EFF00, align: right"]0.03103996[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A4FF00, align: right"]0.03223088[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A5FF00, align: right"]0.03232640[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Bergamo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ACFF00, align: right"]0.03374879[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #AEFF00, align: right"]0.03421376[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #AFFF00, align: right"]0.03432588[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B5FF00, align: right"]0.03546127[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B7FF00, align: right"]0.03594062[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B8FF00, align: right"]0.03611853[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BDFF00, align: right"]0.03699253[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C1FF00, align: right"]0.03787082[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C9FF00, align: right"]0.03938887[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C9FF00, align: right"]0.03939264[/TD]
[TD]Rumelia_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C9FF00, align: right"]0.03941018[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian:Central[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D8FF00, align: right"]0.04241476[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Izmir[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DDFF00, align: right"]0.04333878[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Laconia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DEFF00, align: right"]0.04359595[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Northeast
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Helladic_MBA:Log04[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #AAFF00, align: right"]0.03338522[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian:Pelagonia1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B4FF00, align: right"]0.03533605[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B7FF00, align: right"]0.03578505[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian:East2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BFFF00, align: right"]0.03745346[/TD]
[TD]Gagauz[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C1FF00, align: right"]0.03778287[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C2FF00, align: right"]0.03797783[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Northeast[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C6FF00, align: right"]0.03881694[/TD]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C6FF00, align: right"]0.03883212[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C7FF00, align: right"]0.03909755[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C9FF00, align: right"]0.03948434[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CBFF00, align: right"]0.03986721[/TD]
[TD]Romanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCFF00, align: right"]0.03991323[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian:Central[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D0FF00, align: right"]0.04069586[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D0FF00, align: right"]0.04078406[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D3FF00, align: right"]0.04141950[/TD]
[TD]Rumelia_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D4FF00, align: right"]0.04155838[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D7FF00, align: right"]0.04218237[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D8FF00, align: right"]0.04228890[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DCFF00, align: right"]0.04322381[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Bergamo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DEFF00, align: right"]0.04355271[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E2FF00, align: right"]0.04426418[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian:Northwest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E3FF00, align: right"]0.04443579[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian:Southeast[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E8FF00, align: right"]0.04545280[/TD]
[TD]French_Provence[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EDFF00, align: right"]0.04654212[/TD]
[TD]Montenegrin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EEFF00, align: right"]0.04671440[/TD]
[TD]Serbian
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Helladic_EBA:Mik15[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7B00, align: right"]0.07595865[/TD]
[TD]Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5800, align: right"]0.08271601[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5700, align: right"]0.08298441[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5300, align: right"]0.08382109[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4F00, align: right"]0.08448195[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4D00, align: right"]0.08480988[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4700, align: right"]0.08615882[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4500, align: right"]0.08638623[/TD]
[TD]Romaniote_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4100, align: right"]0.08725117[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4000, align: right"]0.08735623[/TD]
[TD]Maltese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3E00, align: right"]0.08789993[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3D00, align: right"]0.08808007[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Dodecanese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3800, align: right"]0.08892301[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_Germany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3600, align: right"]0.08937307[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3300, align: right"]0.09007834[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Kos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3200, align: right"]0.09016055[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_West[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3100, align: right"]0.09040410[/TD]
[TD]Cypriot_B[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2F00, align: right"]0.09072775[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2D00, align: right"]0.09122491[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2A00, align: right"]0.09179614[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Laconia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2700, align: right"]0.09226700[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2400, align: right"]0.09300389[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2200, align: right"]0.09325521[/TD]
[TD]Tunisian_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2200, align: right"]0.09328802[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1D00, align: right"]0.09437571[/TD]
[TD]Moroccan_Jew
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Cycladic_EBA:Kou03[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF500, align: right"]0.05204134[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Kos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEB00, align: right"]0.05385652[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Dodecanese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE600, align: right"]0.05480986[/TD]
[TD]Cypriot_B[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDC00, align: right"]0.05680599[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD300, align: right"]0.05856668[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCD00, align: right"]0.05971432[/TD]
[TD]Romaniote_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC900, align: right"]0.06059452[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC800, align: right"]0.06078801[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC300, align: right"]0.06180311[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC100, align: right"]0.06216075[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC000, align: right"]0.06230512[/TD]
[TD]Cypriot[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBC00, align: right"]0.06317933[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_Germany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB400, align: right"]0.06476211[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central_Anatolia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB400, align: right"]0.06480381[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB200, align: right"]0.06506609[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFAC00, align: right"]0.06632712[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Izmir[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA800, align: right"]0.06704354[/TD]
[TD]Maltese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA800, align: right"]0.06706089[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA200, align: right"]0.06824511[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9D00, align: right"]0.06931194[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Laconia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9800, align: right"]0.07018232[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8A00, align: right"]0.07288819[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8A00, align: right"]0.07298538[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_Belarussia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8800, align: right"]0.07331913[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Cappadocia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8600, align: right"]0.07365125[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_Poland
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Minoan_EBA:Pta08[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7000, align: right"]0.07794846[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6C00, align: right"]0.07888632[/TD]
[TD]Romaniote_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6800, align: right"]0.07966648[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Dodecanese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6600, align: right"]0.08001202[/TD]
[TD]Cypriot_B[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6400, align: right"]0.08029646[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6200, align: right"]0.08085760[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6000, align: right"]0.08124932[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5D00, align: right"]0.08180170[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5700, align: right"]0.08291480[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5600, align: right"]0.08321596[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Kos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5300, align: right"]0.08375053[/TD]
[TD]Cypriot[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5000, align: right"]0.08429738[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4B00, align: right"]0.08538057[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_Germany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4400, align: right"]0.08657638[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4300, align: right"]0.08690987[/TD]
[TD]Maltese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3C00, align: right"]0.08819190[/TD]
[TD]Tunisian_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3A00, align: right"]0.08870051[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3700, align: right"]0.08913941[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3700, align: right"]0.08930199[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_West[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3400, align: right"]0.08979417[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3300, align: right"]0.08995290[/TD]
[TD]Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2600, align: right"]0.09259749[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Izmir[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2600, align: right"]0.09262980[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_Poland[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2500, align: right"]0.09272088[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Laconia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2400, align: right"]0.09292286[/TD]
[TD]Libyan_Jew

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Last edited:
@Angela, I read all your answers and links with appreciation. The thing is, that I was gathering information and looked if someone found anything we have overlooked yet. And, I looked as the pics, thus I understand what dark skin in that context means.
 
kingjohn said:
i failed to understand why people from central / northern europe
are so shocked that those bronze age greeks were not pale like modern day northwest europeans
it isn't shocking for me given where they lived, climate etc.....

so yes autosomally speking they were southern europeans :shocked:
though log2 and log4 resemble more south balkan population than classical med
because of the steppe % they had ...
overall it look like there was continuity in south balkan region ( or those just happen to have the same % of components )
Click to expand...

Come on, kingjohn, once again, nobody here is shocked that BA Greeks were not pale as Northern Europeans, but totally surprised at the fact, that these Greeks turned out to be very dark to black. That’s all and we can be puzzled. Anyway in which forum did you see that the samples homozygous for the G derived allele of slc45a2 G/G. If that was the case how can they be predicted as very dark to black?
 
Ailchu said:
i could imagine their skin color might have been similar to what we find in egypt today. if there was still ongoing selection for light skin in greece because of the change in nutrition then it is also likely that there was a similar selection throughout the near east and north africa. so when the ancient greeks compared their skin color to the northern barbarians and the egyptians then probably we should consider that those 2 groups were also darker ***mented than modern ones.
Click to expand...

What you say seems plausible. However, we have Egyptian mummies who had definitely a light skin tone. Also, Egyptians depicted beige or whitish looking Libyans. And Ancient Greeks didn't exaggerate when they talked about their pale Northern neighbors. Here is a depiction of a Thracian.

Thrace-ostrusha.jpg
 
real expert said:
Come kingjohn, once again, nobody here is shocked that BA Greeks were not pale as Northern Europeans, but totally surprised at the fact, that these Greeks turned out to be very dark to black. That’s all and we can be puzzled. Anyway in which forum did you see that the samples homozygous for the G derived allele of slc45a2 G/G. If that was the case how can they be predicted as very dark to black.
Click to expand...




in apricity ( but it is based on anlaysis of a dude from anthrogenica)
From Michalis Moriopulos

rs16891982
(C;C) - generally non-European, but if European, 7x more likely to have black hair
(C;G) - if European, 7x more likely to have black hair
(G;G) - Generally European; Light skin; Possibly an increased risk of melanoma

Pta08 Minoan (C;G)
Kou01 Cycladic (C;C)
Kou03 Cycladic (C;C)
Mik15 EBA Helladic (G;G)
Log02 MBA Helladic (C;C)
Log04 MBA Helladic (G;G)

rs12913832
(A;A) - brown eye color, 80% of the time
(A;G) - brown eye color
(G;G) - blue eye color, 99% of the time

Pta08 Minoan (A;A)
Kou01 Cycladic (A;A)
Kou03 Cycladic (A;A)
Mik15 EBA Helladic (A;A)
Log02 MBA Helladic (A;A)
Log04 MBA Helladic (A;A)



they were not that dark just nt pale like north euro
they were like the sardinian you posted earlier :thinking:
6e821a6a5c886c2857669fc0c131149e.jpg


[COLOR=var(--g-colorGray0)]
​
​
[COLOR=var(--g-colorGray300)]
[/COLOR]









[/COLOR]




 
kingjohn said:
in apricity ( but it is based on anlaysis of a dude from anthrogenica)
From Michalis Moriopulos

rs16891982
(C;C) - generally non-European, but if European, 7x more likely to have black hair
(C;G) - if European, 7x more likely to have black hair
(G;G) - Generally European; Light skin; Possibly an increased risk of melanoma

Pta08 Minoan (C;G)
Kou01 Cycladic (C;C)
Kou03 Cycladic (C;C)
Mik15 EBA Helladic (G;G)
Log02 MBA Helladic (C;C)
Log04 MBA Helladic (G;G)

rs12913832
(A;A) - brown eye color, 80% of the time
(A;G) - brown eye color
(G;G) - blue eye color, 99% of the time

Pta08 Minoan (A;A)
Kou01 Cycladic (A;A)
Kou03 Cycladic (A;A)
Mik15 EBA Helladic (A;A)
Log02 MBA Helladic (A;A)
Log04 MBA Helladic (A;A)



they were not that dark just nt pale like north euro
they were like the sardinian you posted earlier :thinking:
6e821a6a5c886c2857669fc0c131149e.jpg


[COLOR=var(--g-colorGray0)]
​
[COLOR=var(--g-colorGray300)]
[/COLOR]









[/COLOR]
Click to expand...

Interesting information that seems to support what I was assuming. But that's not what this genetic study concludes. On the contrary, these BA Greeks are predicted as darker than modern Europeans including Sardinians, even darker than many modern Middle Easterners who are “intermediate”. Besides, how reliable is apricity?
 
real expert said:
What you say seems plausible. However, we have Egyptian mummies who had definitely light skin tone. Also, Egyptians depicted beige or whitish looking Libyans. And Ancient Greeks didn't exaggerate when they talked about their pale Northern neighbors. Here is a depiction of a Thracian.

Thrace-ostrusha.jpg
Click to expand...
Mine is just an addendum that likely the choice of Thracians isn't a good choice: though they are referred to by Greeks as read-haired it is very unlikely that the Thracians could have looked different from the Greeks, since there is no reason to think of any substantial genetic, hence phenotypic, difference between them besides a probable "clinal difference" (maybe a tiny bit more steppe in Thracians).

That woman depicted has the skin tone of every woman I've seen in south Italy, in fact it has already been noted in this thread that Greeks referred to "pale skinned" when talking both about northern barbarians and their women, which means that Greeks' untanned natural skin was of the approximate same hue (as their women's).

I do not know if there is the need to make it explicit, but the fact that a woman whose hue is perfectly in the normal range for southern Europeans has been brought as an example of pale northeners (though even geographically the Thracians weren't "northeners" in any conceivable way given they are not even "central south Europe", at around Rome's latitude) makes me think it cannot at least do any harm: Southern Europeans' skin tone is universally, untanned, pinkish, with few that can be milk white (here in Italy called "Mozzarelle", who can't tan usually), even in Sicily where I live (at least "even" if I speak keeping in mind the stereotypes that many Americans have about Sicilians).
For this reason I find it a bit perplexing to see someone talk about how a predicted phenotype for skin tone's being from dark to black as "southern European" and how they are surprised that people find it odd.
My idea is that it is likely wrong, or if it is genuine, then we are seeing the period in which the Europeans' skin tone was beeing selected for and so a few individuals displayed its absence.
 
real expert said:
Interesting information that seems to support what I was assuming. But that's not what this genetic study concludes. On the contrary, these BA Greeks are predicted as darker than modern Europeans including Sardinians, even darker than many modern Middle Easterners who are “intermediate”. Besides, how reliable is apricity?
Click to expand...


they can be wrong
unless we have a time machine we can't know exactly how did they look
we can in assume based on the derived/ ancesteral snp's
given that all of them were slc24a5 derived i think they couldn't be that dark ...


p.s
aprcity generally speaking not that reliable but since it is based on anlaysis of anthrogenica user that is there
for years
and know a thing or two i say in this case it is relaible
 
kingjohn said:
i failed to understand why people from central / northern europe
are so shocked that those bronze age greeks were not pale like modern day northwest europeans
it isn't shocking for me given where they lived, climate etc.....

so yes autosomally speking they were southern europeans :shocked:
though log2 and log4 resemble more south balkan population than classical med
because of the steppe % they had ...
overall it look like there was continuity in south balkan region ( or those just happen to have the same % of components )
Click to expand...

Regardless of whether or not what this study claims about the skin color of these Bronze Age samples from northern Greece is correct, in my opinion it is quite wrong to make a comparison between a population of 3500 years ago and those of today, a similarity of ancestral components does not imply much else, it does not imply that a population of 3500 years ago was completely similar to those of today with a similar ratio of ancestral components. Because other factors may have come into play over 3000 years, such as the skin colour of the modern population may also be due to sexual selection mechanisms that have taken place over the last 3000 years. We don't know yet.

Using Hirisplex itself, a research two years ago based on HGDP samples and 1000 genomes, concluded that in Europe everywhere the two widespread types are pale and intermediate, obviously with pale being more widespread in northern Europe and intermediate in southern Europe, and that in the whole Europe only a minority of Sardinians could belong to the dark type, as the majority of Sardinians belong to intermediate, but not the rest of southern Europeans who belonged to intermediate and pale only and in the research were represented by Spaniards, Basques, northern Italians (Bergamo) and Tuscans. Unfortunately, almost all Balkan and Aegean populations were missing from the study. The dark and dark-black types, along with intermediate as well, were found in the Middle East (Bedouins, Druzes, and Palestinians from Israel), South Asia (Pakistan) and East Asia.
 
real expert said:
Interesting information that seems to support what I was assuming. But that's not what this genetic study concludes. On the contrary, these BA Greeks are predicted as darker than modern Europeans including Sardinians, even darker than many modern Middle Easterners who are “intermediate”. Besides, how reliable is apricity?
Click to expand...

that's because again, you can't just look at these 2 genes. if you look at the table they have genotypes of certain other snp's that have a low frequency in europe nowadays.
though there is something i don't get and maybe someone knows the answer: for some of the genotypes in the table for example rs2378249 the table says "TT" for all samples but in the online database there is not even a T variant in this position. is this because they somehow genotyped the opposite strand for some reason?
 
Leopoldo Leone said:
Mine is just an addendum that likely the choice of Thracians isn't a good choice: though they are referred to by Greeks as read-haired it is very unlikely that the Thracians could have looked different from the Greeks, since there is no reason to think of any substantial genetic, hence phenotypic, difference between them besides a probable "clinal difference" (maybe a tiny bit more steppe in Thracians).

That woman depicted has the skin tone of every woman I've seen in south Italy, in fact it has already been noted in this thread that Greeks referred to "pale skinned" when talking both about northern barbarians and their women, which means that Greeks' untanned natural skin was of the approximate same hue (as their women's).

I do not know if there is the need to make it explicit, but the fact that a woman whose hue is perfectly in the normal range for southern Europeans has been brought as an example of pale northeners (though even geographically the Thracians weren't "northeners" in any conceivable way given they are not even "central south Europe", at around Rome's latitude) makes me think it cannot at least do any harm: Southern Europeans' skin tone is universally, untanned, pinkish, with few that can be milk white (here in Italy called "Mozzarelle", who can't tan usually), even in Sicily where I live (at least "even" if I speak keeping in mind the stereotypes that many Americans have about Sicilians).
For this reason I find it a bit perplexing to see someone talk about how a predicted phenotype for skin tone's being from dark to black as "southern European" and how they are surprised that people find it odd.
My idea is that it is likely wrong, or if it is genuine, then we are seeing the period in which the Europeans' skin tone was beeing selected for and so a few individuals displayed its absence.
Click to expand...

I have no idea why you are fixated on two rare mummies compared to all the others, and not to the way the Egyptians depicted themselves. It's illogical. You don't make judgments about an entire population based on 5%, if even that, of the samples.

If you want to make a big deal of it, it's your prerogative. Imo it is completely illogical and I will not discuss it further.

As for the skin tone of Italians, I have every skin de***mentation allele in the book, and as a result am predicted to be very fair. It's true; can't tan, burn, get sun poisoning, have to wear the lightest skin foundation on the market.

THAT is NOT common even in my part of Italy, far less so in the south. Southern Italians very, very rarely have "pink" undertones. A large percentage have olive undertones, as I showed above, even if they're much "fairer" in the winter.

ONE factor, among others, is that there hasn't been a total sweep for derived SLC45A2 yet.
I
1kLElNh.png


ktUe5fx.png


This all bears out my experience of these people. I've seen some quite dark Portuguese for example.

Keep in mind, however, that this is one snp, not the multiple snps used in the subject paper. OCA2, for example, which is not that common in Southern Europe, affects skin as well as eye color.

Thracians were not Greeks. Period. The ***mentation of one is not the ***mentation of others.
 
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