Immigration The Lives of German Turks

[Tutkun Arnaut]

The way the Germans treat these Near Eastern people is on a different scale than anything you see in other western European countries. It's just a fact.

As a young teen age girl I myself was verbally abused (today it would be a hate crime as well as sexual harassment) by a German Swiss government official for asking a question in Italian. Since it "is" after all one of the national languages of Switzerland, I thought I was being polite. When I switched to English there was a turn about. If you're wondering how I know what he said, it went the rounds of the Italian community within minutes, and reached my maternal aunt, whom I was visiting.

Italian migrants in general were horribly treated in Switzerland, and in Germany too. It's only within the last few decades that it's been bearable in Germany, but that's because they have even more "exotic" people upon which to unleash their zenophobic feelings, or even perhaps closer, discomfort and dislike of anyone more "southern", or "darker".

This has nothing to do with German-Americans, of course.

As for America, any such comparison is an absurdity. Leaving aside the fact that any such behavior would get you arrested, if someone did something like these people describe, deny entrance to a club, deny an apartment, taunt on the street, the person doing this would be attacked at least verbally by most people in hearing distance. Some would do more than that. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO COMPARISON. PERIOD.

You can believe anything you want, but that's the reality.

How would you behave if In place in Italy you are from, suddenly 1 million Germans come looking to settle and work? I am sure you would not be happy, no matter how blond and pale they are! You would feel someone is robing your country and your culture! European countries pour and rich have their distinct cultures, deeply rooted in history and mentality. You view European cultures with American eyes.

 

[bicicleur 2]

it is very subjective :

what question did they ask?
to whom did they ask this?
from those 500 responses, how did they select the 6 or 7 they publish in this article?

it is written for those who want to believe this stuff

 

[Ailchu]

Matadworf, Angela? should i make a new thread with my links? you know it really needs to be adressed but it's not just a german thing. i understand that incident with the swiss guy(post office or governement official?) hurt you deeply. it was disgusting, certainly. racism is racism after all. i already wrote this in another thread but just for understanding, not for justification, in 1970 there were 6 million people in switzerland 500'000 of them were italian migrants. back then people were way more nationalistic, certainly also in italy. from reading the things you write about your father, i'm not sure if he was really different. swiss people back then also didn't like the germans. after googling i found that in zurich in 1995 (there were 90'000 german nationals in switzerland at that time and probably quite a lot of them in zurich) the germans were the most disliked group after people from yugoslavia, arabs, turks. with a distance though. but for comparison 11% of the poll participants disliked the germans. only 1% disliked the italians.

those who feared there could be an effect on swiss culture because of italian migration, well they were right. modern swiss are more mixed and more open towards further migration and cultural exchange. many politicians have an italian background. it was a hurdle that had to be overcome to get away from nationalism. and many more are still lying ahead.

and why think that this is representative of all swiss or germans, especially a few decades later? there was an english teenager raped by an italian barkeeper recently in switzerland. should she take this guy as a representative for the italian mentality? its an individual experience not the rule.


anyways i really don't like it when people point at germany or switzerland blaming them for racism but without any self reflection about their own country where it might be no better or even worse.

 

[Angela]

Ailchu, please check your facts.

Most Italian migrants left Switzerland, and not only because things improved back home.

I don't base my opinions solely on what happened to me. The experience of Italian workers in Switzerland and Germany was not a happy one.

In Germany, where there are still a lot of Italian residents, it got a lot better after the fifties, sixties and seventies, but there are new "exotic" people to dislike.

I'm sorry, as I said before I totally understand not wanting to be overrun by undocumented, unskilled workers. That's the case now with the migration to Germany and Italy. It was not the case with the migrations of Italians to Switzerland and Germany after the war.

 

[Ailchu]

Ailchu, please check your facts.

Most Italian migrants left Switzerland, and not only because things improved back home.

I don't base my opinions solely on what happened to me. The experience of Italian workers in Switzerland and Germany was not a happy one.

In Germany, where there are still a lot of Italian residents, it got a lot better after the fifties, sixties and seventies, but there are new "exotic" people to dislike.

I'm sorry, as I said before I totally understand not wanting to be overrun by undocumented, unskilled workers. That's the case now with the migration to Germany and Italy. It was not the case with the migrations of Italians to Switzerland and Germany after the war.

yes of course i understand that too. but racism is never justified. beeing against migrants yes, beeing racist no.

back then the people were different. you probably know from your father. especially those who still experienced WWII. it wasn't about uneducated or undocumented migrants, but it really was about nationality, identity. and also ethnicity. that's why there was racism.
if it really is just about undocumented and unskilled migrants now, why is there still racism? it means we still have people with the mentality from back then and it is still about ethnicity.

about the italian migration, i don't know how many left or stayed. fact is that at the time with the highest aversion towards italians the italian migration was at a peak. sure most italians who went to switzerland have left it again but still not few stayed.
googling gave me these numbers: in 2010 there were around 300'000 italian nationals with only the italian citizenship in switzerland and in 2017 around 200'000 people had the swiss together with the italian citizenship.

 

[Aaron1981]

It's unfortunate that someone would be treated as lesser because they look different. The only exception I took to the article was the half-Dominican who had a clear grudge on her back. The reality is Germans are white people, or the natives are white people. Just as Italians are Italians, Ukrainians are Ukranians and Chinese are Chinese. I'm pretty sure that I would be treated as a foreigner, and lesser (by some, not all) if I moved to Yemen, Iran, China, or even Japan. It's an unfortunate human trait, and not restricted to whites, or Germans in this instance.

I'd hate for people to blow all these stories out of proportion and assume it's common for all Germans to think this way. These are unfortunate human experiences where a minority of people are prejudiced. Then again, I can't speak first hand, nor have I visited Germany to see it first hand.

 

[Angela]

All I can tell you is that I've been all over the world, and I've never been treated as I was in German Switzerland.

There was even a small incident in Munich airport just when we were changing planes. I guess the last name was enough, or perhaps it had to to with my husband. I don't know.

Maybe I just have bad luck.

It sure does leave a bad taste in your mouth, though.

Not going back to either place any time soon.

All of that said, I treat each and every person I encounter as an individual, and judge them accordingly. One of my closest friends, for example, is the daughter of post war Bavarian immigrants, and her mother is an exceedingly lovely person.

One can't use bad experiences with a few members of a group to prejudge all the others.

 

[bicicleur 2]

the worst I have been treated was after a long night flight landing in JFK airport, New York

it was by a big black lady who was bullying me because it took me some time to find the strips to prove that the lugguage I had taken was actualy mine

I had a very bad night on the plane, but her night must have been terrible, the mood in which she was adressing me

 

[Angela]

Well, hopefully she didn't comment on the size of your body parts, and you weren't fourteen years old.

Or maybe she told you to go back to Belgium and get out of her country?

And if she had done either of those things let's hope that the people around who heard it would intervene.

 

[bicicleur 2]

no she didn't, but that wouldn't have been more unpleasant as it already was
they shouldn't let people like that walk around in uniforms as if they own the place
I can't imagine that happening in Belgium
and I can't help it, but I got the impression she picked me because of my looks
the excuse was that she was doing her job, but you could feel the hate and the anger, it was very obvious

I was arriving from South America, I guess she couldn't know I was Belgian, I could as well have been American
but there was surely something about me she didn't like

 

[Ailchu]

these incidents really aren't representative of a whole people. it's just the nationalists and racists among them and those are everywhere the same. ethnicity is still way too important for the identity of many people.

is the aversion towards migrants really just based on facts or is it also again because of identity/ethnicity? we litterally have far right groups all over europe now who call themselves the "identitarians". people talk about "genocide" or "population replacement". everything fueled by politics from populists, who blow the problem out of proportion. the possibility that identity has nothing to do with ethnicity, that all populations are just mixes, and that the populations just merge is not getting into their dense heads.
science and history aside, the most important aspect of pop gen is to remove this illusion of identity. since this illusion is one of the main reasons against migration, many call you pro-imigration, or i also already heard anti-german/european, as soon as you act against it even though that doesn't have to be the case.

 

[Guido Anselmi]

The Germans have a different approach to migrants than do Americans, Canadians, Brits and others. The Germans aren't an individualist nation in comparison and are rather collectivist. This is actually a good thing for those wishing to preserve the German nation as is and avoid the difficulties we see elsewhere. i have family that have been in Germany for three generations now and none of them are considered to be Germans by the Germans and they themselves don't consider themselves to be German either. This has led to a respect from immigrant families like mine for their hosts. This is preferable to what we are seeing in the Anglosphere where more and more immigrants are demanding all sorts of things (historical apologies and such) upon entry, decrying 'racism', etc.

 

[Ailchu]

The Germans have a different approach to migrants than do Americans, Canadians, Brits and others. The Germans aren't an individualist nation in comparison and are rather collectivist. This is actually a good thing for those wishing to preserve the German nation as is and avoid the difficulties we see elsewhere. i have family that have been in Germany for three generations now and none of them are considered to be Germans by the Germans and they themselves don't consider themselves to be German either. This has led to a respect from immigrant families like mine for their hosts. This is preferable to what we are seeing in the Anglosphere where more and more immigrants are demanding all sorts of things (historical apologies and such) upon entry, decrying 'racism', etc.

but where is this different? in america an immigrant might be considered american at some point, but ethnically he himself and all the people around him won't call him american. in america nationality and ethnicity are completely decoupled. in europe or elsewhere i know no other place where this is already the case. but the importance of ethnicity is going down continously.

 

[[email protected]]

but where is this different? in america an immigrant might be considered american at some point, but ethnically he himself and all the people around him won't call him american. in america nationality and ethnicity are completely decoupled. in europe or elsewhere i know no other place where this is already the case. but the importance of ethnicity is going down continously.

Ailchu, always be careful asserting what the people of another country think. I believe you meant well and I accept that ethnicity in my country is decoupled, as you say, from nationality (thank God), but we all think of ourselves as Americans. We call our fellow Americans . . . Americans. My ancestors dropped their ethnicity, Dutch, German, Irish and English, as quickly as they could and adopted the “idea” of America, which is the whole point of this country.

 

[Angela]

Ailchu, always be careful asserting what the people of another country think. I believe you meant well and I accept that ethnicity in my country is decoupled, as you say, from nationality (thank God), but we all think of ourselves as Americans. We call our fellow Americans . . . Americans. My ancestors dropped their ethnicity, Dutch, German, Irish and English, as quickly as they could and adopted the “idea” of America, which is the whole point of this country.

I completely agree.

Europeans don't quite get how quickly that happens here.

It's a function, imo, both of the attitude of the Americans and of the new arrivals.

Already by the second generation, and sometimes even in the new arrivals themselves, a new identity is woven. Someone may go to the Scottish games and don a kilt, as they do every summer at a Highlands Game here, but they're Americans first and foremost.

It's the only way for this to work.

I sincerely hope that isn't changing.

 

[Ailchu]

I believe you meant well and I accept that ethnicity in my country is decoupled, as you say, from nationality (thank God), but we all think of ourselves as Americans. We call our fellow Americans . . . Americans. My ancestors dropped their ethnicity, Dutch, German, Irish and English, as quickly as they could and adopted the “idea” of America, which is the whole point of this country.

that's what i ment. see, your ancestors didn't just drop their ethnicity and changed it to "american". you write "English/German" as your ethnic group. but everyone is relatively easy american because the term "american" has 0 to do with ethnicity.
that is not yet the case with most other nationalities. the term "german" still has next to it's nationality meaning an ethnic meaning. if we say someone is german we not only imply that he has the german nationality we also still imply a bit that he might be "ethnic german". this is also the case in america where if you refer to someone as lets say italian you still imply that he is of italian ethnicity and not just an italian national.
or in the countries itself you will never be regarded as fully german or fully italian, by people who look at the ethncity. those people will call you fully german only because of culture. they would not call you ethnic german, italian without further explanation. and those who say you are fully german do not look at the ethnicity, also not at their own, they really don't care about it anymore. that's what i ment with ethnicity becoming less and less important in europe.
but calling someone ethnic german or ethnic french when he isn't would make no sense for everyone because either you look at the origins of a person, or you completely ignore them and remove the genetic concept of ethnicity from your mind and from the words "german" or "french" etc.

it hopefully keeps changing in the future and comes closer to how the term "american" is handled but it's not yet the case in most european countries. and here i think germany, at least the western part, is not really behind in this process compared to other countries in europe. rather the opposite. the one that is furthest is maybe france.

 

[Jovialis]

these incidents really aren't representative of a whole people. it's just the nationalists and racists among them and those are everywhere the same. ethnicity is still way too important for the identity of many people.

is the aversion towards migrants really just based on facts or is it also again because of identity/ethnicity? we litterally have far right groups all over europe now who call themselves the "identitarians". people talk about "genocide" or "population replacement". everything fueled by politics from populists, who blow the problem out of proportion. the possibility that identity has nothing to do with ethnicity, that all populations are just mixes, and that the populations just merge is not getting into their dense heads.
science and history aside, the most important aspect of pop gen is to remove this illusion of identity. since this illusion is one of the main reasons against migration, many call you pro-imigration, or i also already heard anti-german/european, as soon as you act against it even though that doesn't have to be the case.

According to who?

Yes, people exist on a gradient of different source populations. In fact that helps to assign a genetic component to ethnicity, that are roughly within a range of those specific percentages; down to a sub-regional level.

 

[Jovialis]

According to who?

Yes, people exist on a gradient of different source populations. In fact that helps to assign a genetic component to ethnicity, that are roughly within a range of those specific percentages; down to a sub-regional level.

Ethnicity is sort of like drink mixology.

You don't just take random ingredients, and say that it is the same as a specific kind of cocktail.

 

[[email protected]]

that's what i ment.

Ailchu, thank you. I tried very hard to make my point above without causing offense. I'm glad I succeeded.

To your point, perhaps we need to move everyone to someplace new so they can start over without the weight of ethnicity. As an American it's easy to overlook the advantage we had by starting fresh. In fact, Americans tend, I think, to regret our lack of ethnicity (not realizing how this could divide us). I think too that Europe's problem is unique in that in many cases we're talking about not a multi-ethnic society, but a bi-ethnic one (i.e. Sweden). I believe that's far more difficult to manage.

Perhaps we simply need to figure out how to create new loyalties. This reminds me of how ancient Athens (or was it Rome?), in their early democracy, created new voting blocs to cut across the old tribal lines.

 

[Angela]

Actually, the Roman Empire lasted as long as it did precisely because it erased "ethnic" or tribal identification and put "Roman" identity in its place.

First it was the Latin tribes, then Greek southern Italy, then northern Italy, then anyone who obtained citizenship, and finally everyone in the Empire.

In the following thread there's a discussion of how Northern Italians within a generation or two were fighting to be called "Roman" and bragging about their superiority to those unfortunates who were not born on the Italian peninsula, which was seen as the epicenter at that early time.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-Roman-Era?highlight=Northern+Italy+Roman+Era

Paul of Tarsus proudly demanded to be tried by Roman law because he was a Roman citizen.

They got some things right.

That's how to convert the conquered: be inconclusive, and treat them equally.