Genetic study The Picenes and the Genetic Landscape of Central Adriatic Italy in the Iron Age.

[torzio]

Well, no, it's not up to archeology but a question of just looking around modern Northern Italians (and those further south too, of course) and seeing how few actually look Scandinavian or North German, even the few genuine blonds in Italy.

well the Ezzelini family where a bavarian family ruling in Vicenza province and east of this into the Treviso province,

then we have the german Scalinger family ruling Verona province, the italian renamed them to La Scala ( italians have a habit of changing peoples surnames ( cognome ) to make them more italian based

there is plenty of austro-german populace in north italy after the collapse of the western roman empire

BTW ...Austrians formed circa 1000AD from Bavarian people

 

[torzio]

In defense of Hype, he doesn't claim for some germanic etnic replacement in northern Italy, just a 10-15% admixture. I believe their autosomic contribution to be a bit lower than that, more like 5-10% depending on the region, but I dont' see it as a big deal.
I would like to point out, however, that modern northern italians don't quite fall on a cline between imperial roman and germanic. The few samples from Bardoncecchia and Turin rather seem to suggest a cline from a tuscan-like imperial cluster in Turin and a more italic-like rural population in Bardonecchia.

I suggest you split north-Italians into west and east ...................with west more French ( provencal ) and east more Austrian , especially south-tyrol and belluno province Veneto

 

[Ghurier]

Well, no, it's not up to archeology but a question of just looking around modern Northern Italians (and those further south too, of course) and seeing how few actually look Scandinavian or North German, even the few genuine blonds in Italy.

Just to say that this is a very bad argument
Blonds hair gene is recessive.
Let imagine you inject ~20% of Blond hair genes in a purely dark-haired population.
After merging, you expect to have ~4% (=0.2^2) peoples with blond hairs.

If you assume Blond hair comes (only) from Germans (note that it is most likely incorrect) ... then the phenotypes of Northern Italians are favoring a very big injection of Germanic-DNA.

 

[Vitruvius]

Just to say that this is a very bad argument
Blonds hair gene is recessive.
Let imagine you inject ~20% of Blond hair genes in a purely dark-haired population.
After merging, you expect to have ~4% (=0.2^2) peoples with blond hairs.

If you assume Blond hair comes (only) from Germans (note that it is most likely incorrect) ... then the phenotypes of Northern Italians are favoring a very big injection of Germanic-DNA.

The idea that blondness is some sort of trait exclusive to Germanic ancestry is a far worse argument as you have indeed noted this idea to be incorrect. I don't see Vallicanus advocating that precisely 0 blondes existed in IA Italy and this is a very loaded assumption to make which is rejected by both artistic and genetic evidence. Blondes have always existed in Italy as a minority phenotype from the ancient era and likely also the bronze age.

If you read the study of the thread you would do well to note that 20% of the Picenes already tested positive for blonde hair (and 30% for light eyes) which most definitely invalidates any type of claim that blondness in modern Italians can be used as proof of non Italian admixture. This also doesn't take into account sexual selection which can change visible phenotypes such as hair color in a homogeneous population very drastically over time. The iron age Italian hair colors were not at some sort of starting point of 0% blondness by any means. This is without getting into the nuance of precisely what shades we are considering blonde vs non-blonde which will muddle the data even more, making cross comparisons difficult.

Also this map you posted with its percentages is not one simply counting blondes, but specifically "blonde types" which is defined as "blonde hair and light eyes" in parenthesis. People with blonde hair alone are in Italy are going to be higher than what is pictured.

 

[Vallicanus]

Just to say that this is a very bad argument
Blonds hair gene is recessive.
Let imagine you inject ~20% of Blond hair genes in a purely dark-haired population.
After merging, you expect to have ~4% (=0.2^2) peoples with blond hairs.

If you assume Blond hair comes (only) from Germans (note that it is most likely incorrect) ... then the phenotypes of Northern Italians are favoring a very big injection of Germanic-DNA.

As Vitruvius pointed out ,this map only shows light-eyed blondes while the number of blondes in Italy,regardless of eye colour, is higher.

Maybe I expressed myself poorly.
What I should have written was that remarkably few modern Italians look Scandinavians or North Germans, regardless of hair colour.

 

[Ghurier]

What I should have written was that remarkably few modern Italians look Scandinavian or North German, regardless of hair colour.

Still ... you don't expect such a thing from a 5-20% injection of Germanic DNA ~1500 years ago.
Not sure what you try to prove with such argument.
I'm also not convinced that Longobard themselves looked Scandinavian by ~500 CE.

 

[Ghurier]

As Vitruvius pointed out ,this map only shows light-eyed blondes while the number of blondes in Italy,regardless of eye colour, is higher.

And that's even worst :
In a "two-recessive-gene" system ...
With a 20% injection of light-eyes blond-hair peoples among dark-eyes dark-hair peoples ...
You expect ~0.2^4 = 0.16% of light-eyes blond-hair post merging of populations.

The fact that some peoples expect to find "Scandinavians" among modern italians because of ~1500 years old Germanic DNA injection is really disturbing me.
This is like total non-sense.

 

[torzio]

north-italians look north Italian and will always look like North-italians ...............with a much high percentage of blonde and reddish hair than other parts of Italy .

Also blue, green and grey eyes are of higher percentage in North Italians than other parts of Italy

considering that eye colour is directly attributed to ones parents, while skin and hair are are not, then its easier to define via eye colour

My paternal eye colour have all been either blue or green eyes ...............myself green, like my father and Grandfather, while my fathers brother and sister where blue eyes via my grandmother side ( their mother )
my wife blue eyes...........parents blue and grey
all my children are blue eyes blue dominate green when mixing as green comes out of blue eye group)

 

[Vallicanus]

And that's even worst :
In a "two-recessive-gene" system ...
With a 20% injection of light-eyes blond-hair peoples among dark-eyes dark-hair peoples ...
You expect ~0.2^4 = 0.16% of light-eyes blond-hair post merging of populations.

The fact that some peoples expect to find "Scandinavians" among modern italians because of ~1500 years old Germanic DNA injection is really disturbing me.
This is like total non-sense.

You are the one talking nonsense.

What do you expect Gothic or Longobard descendants in Italy to look like exactly?

 

[Vallicanus]

north-italians look north Italian and will always look like North-italians ...............with a much high percentage of blonde and reddish hair than other parts of Italy .

Also blue, green and grey eyes are of higher percentage in North Italians than other parts of Italy

considering that eye colour is directly attributed to ones parents, while skin and hair are are not, then its easier to define via eye colour

My paternal eye colour have all been either blue or green eyes ...............myself green, like my father and Grandfather, while my fathers brother and sister where blue eyes via my grandmother side ( their mother )
my wife blue eyes...........parents blue and grey
all my children are blue eyes blue dominate green when mixing as green comes out of blue eye group)

If you read Livi and Biasutti you will see that the North Italians of the Alps and Pre-Alps are the blondest in Italy but parts of Central italy like Tuscany and Umbria are lighter-haired than the North Italians of the Po Valley, particularly Emilia-Romagna.

 

[Ghurier]

You are the one talking nonsense.

What do you expect Gothic or Longobard descendants in Italy to look like exactly?

Do you believe they only reproduced within themselved as some isolated populations ?
Going there,
-Can you identify me who are descendents of WSH in modern Europe ?
-Who are descendents of EEF ?
-Who are descedents of WHG ?

Point is, we are all descendents of these 3 components.
Similarly, modern Northern Italians are all descendents of all the sources of DNA in north Italy.

Thus, North Italian have a part (somewhere between 5-20% most likely) inherrited from Germanic tribes, and the rest inherited from other sources. If you try to find scandinavians in north-Italy ... you have strong mis-understandings about how DNA works !

End of discussion for me. This discussion is not "scientific", I just wanted to check !

 

[Vallicanus]

-Can you identify me who are descendents of WSH in modern Europe ?
-Who are descendents of EEF ?
-Who are descedents of WHG ?

Point is, we are all descendents of these 3 components.
Similarly, modern Northern Italians are all descendents of all the sources of DNA in north Italy.

Thus, North Italian have a part (somewhere between 5-20% most likely) inherrited from Germanic tribes, and the rest inherited from other sources. If you
Do you believe they only reproduced within themselved as some isolated populations ?

Going there,


try to find scandinavians in north-Italy ... you have strong mis-understandings about how DNA works !

End of discussion for me. This discussion is not "scientific", I just wanted to check !

You have just pulled the 5-20pc figure for Germanic inheritance out of your hat.
No science there.

 

[Ghurier]

You have just pulled the 5-20pc figure for Germanic inheritance out of your hat.
No science there.

Nope,
This is just the range at ~68% of considence that you can deduced from Y-DNA injection level between 0 and 600 CE under the assumption of an unbiased migration of both males and females.

Keep looking for scandinavians ... good luck

 

[Vallicanus]

Very scientific and precise.
Vaguely between 5 and 20pc Germanic.

Yes,of course, North Italians are a mix but precious little has been inherited from Germanic invaders.

 

[Vallicanus]

Nope,
This is just the range at ~68% of considence that you can deduced from Y-DNA injection level between 0 and 600 CE under the assumption of an unbiased migration of both males and females.

Keep looking for scandinavians ... good luck

You have a talent for complete fiction.

 

[Ghurier]

Very scientific and precise.
Vaguely between 5 and 20pc Germanic.

Yes,of course, North Italians are a mix but precious little has been inherited from Germanic invaders.

As I said before on this topic, it is a very noisy estimator ... I also rounded up the numbers considering the broad error bars.
In fact, yes, this is very scientific, technically you never drop a number alone, in serious science you provide either :
-A number and an error bar
-A confidence interval
I prefer the later when the errors are strgonly asymetric !

 

[Jovialis]

@ihype02

I for one believe Modern Italian cline is indeed IA Italics and LBA Greeks. We see that IA demographics throughout Europe remains relatively stable. The same is true for Italy. Using these ancillary merchants and slaves is a means to propagate the Netflix version of history.

This is what I believe:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771524236433068044

R437 can indeed be modeled like pre-Slavic MBA North Greeks. The same is true for modern-day Apulia.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771645746833494143

Many research papers follow many arbitrary constructions that sometimes deviate from what the actual sources of those samples imply. C6 for example is falsely lumped in with other divergent groups which die away by Late Antiquity. It is not a coincidence that C6 overlaps with LBA Greeks. It is also not a coincidence that North Italians overlap with certain Italics. This canard that there was this great Panmixa is purely based on Urbanites that died away, it's promoted by academics that want to put a liberal slant on history, while giving fodder to a racist agenda.

Frankly I could care less, because the fact exists that Ancient Greeks and Italics plot with modern Italians. Yes there is even qpAdm analysis that verifies it. Moreover there's obviously historical evidence. That should be a trifecta for aDNA. But because these people, Greeks and Romans, were also great and legendary civilizations that stir the hearts of the world, they're a political football. I am sick of it.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1772412566104420729

 

[Vitruvius]

And that's even worst :
In a "two-recessive-gene" system ...
With a 20% injection of light-eyes blond-hair peoples among dark-eyes dark-hair peoples ...
You expect ~0.2^4 = 0.16% of light-eyes blond-hair post merging of populations.

The fact that some peoples expect to find "Scandinavians" among modern italians because of ~1500 years old Germanic DNA injection is really disturbing me.
This is like total non-sense.

You've totally missed the point and this argument you present is absolute nonsense. You are still dead set on the fictional idea that blondeness is some some sort of trait exclusive to Germanic populations when every ounce of evidence has told us otherwise both in the ancient world and now. The very study of this thread has disproven this assumption and you've ignored it in favor of some ludicrous fantasy where exactly 100% of the IA Italian population consisted of people with dark hair and eyes and light features could only be transmitted by exotic, non local populations.

You cannot quantify german admixture by looking at hair color, nor can you deduce it by looking at haplogroups. It is a joke to say you can even qualify it using these methods, when we are still discovering exactly what Northern IA Italics actually looked like on a genetic level (which is pretty extremely modern, based off the Picenes).

Any fool who believes you can guestimate German ancestry by counting blonde heads or blue eyes is just another nordicist clown repeating the same garbage pseudoscience drivel that has been rehashed for the last 200+ years. You can find these traits all over europe in every single country and this has been the case since the bronze age.

 

[Vitruvius]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1772412566104420729

I would like to see a run of moderns using a simple two way source population scenario including picenes and imperial romans if at all possible in the future. I think we both are most definintely on the right track here with this thinking. The German repopulation crowd can continue to draw from clownish ideas like blonde frequencies as a proxy for German admixture if they please. All it proves is how backwards these beliefs are.

If anyone wants me to believe in a whopping 20% exotic german admixture introgression then we better start seeing heaping tons of new German profiles in these EMA studies. They will need a miracle for it based off what is known so far.

 

[ihype02]

Whenever the Germanic admixture in North Italy is 5%, 10% or 15%, I am sure there is a model for every single percentage so we cannot really tell. But fact is that there is 15%-20% Germanic y-dna in there. And another fact is that this admixture is not zero or very close to zero.