MOESAN
Elite member
- Messages
- 5,933
- Reaction score
- 1,327
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Brittany
- Ethnic group
- more celtic
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b - L21/S145*
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H3c
I know a conquest and the control of power by a foreign people can leave very few remains or almost nothing. But every conquest and power didn't have the same input, and I never heard Longobards had been expelled of Italy. I know also that dominant foreign elites and the subsequent admixture they bring can be swept off some generations after by differences in demography and also that what we find in sepultures are not always the reflexion of reality. I said it before in other threads. I was not too assertive and I'm ready to accept your arguments. But I should be happy to see more Italian MA anDNA of everywhere. Perhaps have you some new papers at hand?To be clear I am not saying that we can say with certainty that precisely zero Italians in Italy today carry any German ancestry. I just don't see it autosomally represented whatsoever. If you want to argue from Y dna then you are arguing for far less than 1% of the Italian genome, from a place of ignorance of what the whole of ancient Italy's Y-dna looked like to begin with. It is a very weak argument and avoiding the autosomal results only really validates my original statement. Our proof of significant German introgression will necessarily be found in the commonality and numerical dominance or absence of of their profiles in the EMA and so far we have absolutely zero outside of 1st to 2nd generation Langobard specific burials.
On the flip side we have the moors who controlled sicily for roughly 300 years and yet sicilians today show total continuity with the Imperial profile with seemingly no north african influence from that era onward. Realistically we're even looking at a scenario in which Roman sicily had its north african punic profile reduced compared to the modern day. The same phenomenon can be said for the Imperial Romans of Gaul and Brittania, who do not appear to have affected the local profiles despite roman domination and their esteemed social status for hundreds of years. Like most people, I think you far overestimate the degree of foreign population intrusion for genetic permanence to take place. Another clear example are the Carthaginians in Sardinia, whose profile remained commonplace well into the Roman era, but today has all but disappeared in favor of more rural local elements that have existed since the neolithic. The urban graveyard effect is a very real and potent phenomenon. The reality is that it is deleterous to intrusive genetic profiles in most cases. There are exceptions of course but they typically necessitate mass migrations. You should perhaps start looking at things from a less dated and simplistic perception where it is assumed conquest equates to a permanent and significant admixture. Reality is much more nuanced and statistically fertility rates are what dominate population genetics over time instead of social status.