To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[TetaEglantina]

They are culturally and autosomally the same people. I think they were just different clans. And again, you see the same pattern of I2 and G2 in Monteoru and earlier BA Bulgaria.

If that is the case then the Encrusted Pottery people are unlikely to be ancestral to the Urnfield Tollense warriors as they had zero G2a lines

 

[Riverman]

If that is the case then the Encrusted Pottery people are unlikely to be ancestral to the Urnfield Tollense warriors as they had zero G2a lines

That's correct, they were only remotely connected. Just like Pre-Gáva were remotely connected to Pre-Lusatian (like Tollense) and Encrusted Pottery. This explains the different ratios of ancestry plus uniparentals. Actually, to me it looks like Encrusted Pottery was for some reason closer related to Monteoru genetically than to both Pre-Gáva groups and Pre-Lusatians.

 

[Riverman]

Expanding a bit the analysis from above, we see differences by site:
Grobalja = Still the presence of Daco-Thracian patrilineages and ancestry, but a heavily Levantine shifted milieu
Rit and Privoj = By comparison much more Daco-Thracian/Balkan dominated
Timacum minus = also more generally Balkan IA dominated

Therefore the Grobalja group sticks out as a much more mixed Daco-Thracian - Roman - Levantine milieu.

Custom PCA with the samples, the Levantine outlier position of the majority of the samples from Grobalja is obvious:

 

[epirus1000]

E-V13 from Bosnia is the equivalent of Slavs juicing up southern Greece with E-V13. Rrenjet has publicly taken the position that E-V13 and R-Z2705 come from Kosovo and southern Serbia post 9th century AD.

One of rrenjets underlings, has let the cat out of the bag. You can always count on his ego to slip a few things.

A genetic history of the Balkans from Roman frontier to Slavic migrations

Massive samples from Komani culture are and have been analyzed. The final tally is expected to be bigger than what was extracted from Bulgaria to the Reich lab(1,300). That means there was no E-V13 in any noticeable number and zero R-Z2705 before 900 AD or around that time frame.

He also is advertising my theory, Brnjica=R-Z2103(likely R-BY611 for the Morava group). He pretends he is basing it on previous data, but that's false because he opposed the very same assessment in anthrogenica and here, when I proposed it using the arguments he now champions as his own. The spiteful rat has seen preliminary data from BA Serbia, that's why he is coming out publicly making predictions, it's obvious.

Are you implying that Komani would be mostly J2b and the BA Serbia will confirm the E-v13?

 

[Moses 26]

There was no slaves living in Balkans, otherwise Rome was filled with Celtic and Germanic slaves during their peak.

Slavs took advantage of the void left after constant wars happening in Balkans, Balkan tribes desolving, and the peak was Justinian pandemics which totally weakened them. Also, the Avars were pushing the Slavs heavily.

We also forgot the Celtic-Gallic tribes, right before and during Roman invasion, they were a menace all over the place.

Otherwise yeah, a peak Balkan tribe would have crushed the Slavic migrants likely, or the impact would have been just to the north, not too much like it happened.

I am surprised about Romania, it is more Slavic than Bulgaria or Serbia, yet they speak Latin and their territory is huge for Balkan countries standard.

Hi I am new here but why do you think romanians have more slavic then Bulgaria and Serbia I thought on dna test they test pretty close to each other ? Edit from

A genetic history of the Balkans from Roman frontier to Slavic migrations study​

A bit more then Bulgarians but same as serbs or a bit less then them

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Are you implying that Komani would be mostly J2b and the BA Serbia will confirm the E-v13?

BA Serbia will not be E-V13, where are you getting this? E-V13 would only be present in northern Serbia(Vojvodina) in late Bronze Age. Your buddy from rrenjet admitted southern and eastern Serbia will be R-Z2103. He even said it with the following term "it looks like". Which hints that he got a sneak preview from an upcoming study.
In his own words he has omitted central Balkans as having any E-V13 during BA. We now from leaks there was E-V13 in Hungary as far back as 2,000 BC. There is suppose to be a E-V13 also from Bronze Age Slovakia. And there is zero E-V13 from BA Bulgaria, Croatia, Albania, Greece, etc... When considering archeological data and the limited DNA samples so far, it's undeniable that the only coherent explanation is a migration from the channel ware cultures of the Carpathian basin. The matter will be settled within 8 months, a major paper is expected to be published with samples from the Carpathian basin of Romania.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

One thing that does not get any mention in the E-V13 debates. E-V13 has shown up in Iron Age Celts as far as Britain if I recall correctly. So far it is has more presence among Iron Age Celts than Illyrians, and the single sample that is appropriated as Illyrian is questionable because it is on Celtic border zone, but even with that, Celts are equal to and in some regions have more E-V13 than Illyrians. An absurd situation for the proponents of a south-east Balkan homeland of E-V13 expansion.

 

[Hawk]

One thing that does not get any mention in the E-V13 debates. E-V13 has shown up in Iron Age Celts as far as Britain if I recall correctly. So far it is has more presence among Iron Age Celts than Illyrians, and the single sample that is appropriated as Illyrian is questionable because it is on Celtic border zone, but even with that, Celts are equal to and in some regions have more E-V13 than Illyrians. An absurd situation for the proponents of a south-east Balkan homeland of E-V13 expansion.

There is also one sample E-M215 from Southern France La Tene Hallstatt. Very likely E-V13. The full French paper is yet to be published.

 

[mount123]

I made an analysis of the most relevant E-V13 and related (Mezocsat-Late Gáva) samples, including the new ones:

E-V13-New-Commented hosted at ImgBB

Image E-V13-New-Commented hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

As can be seen in the graph, most of the new samples look like recently mixed individuals of North and South Thracian descent, which mixed primarily with "Imperial Roman" or generally East Mediterranean people, but also Illyrians and to a lesser degree with other people.

Therefore I think these are people from a mixed genetic-cultural Roman context, with the more local population being largely hidden from us behind the cremation wall, so to say. But these people come, on average about 1/2, one parent, from these locals of various Daco-Thracian origin. It looks like local elite males had married "Roman" (in the widest sense) wives. That's most evident in the Grobalja group, which represents 50 : 50 mixtures of Daco-Thracian : Imperial Roman/East Mediterranean.

The most South Thracian origin is clearly I15504, he looks like coming straight from the EIA.

We can also see that there is an older more Central-North Balkan cluster formed by the two Himerans and Vekerzug individual from Chotin, Slovakia.

My guess is that the local population of Viminacium before the Celts and Romans will have this exact profile. To me its just logical that the people which assimilated to Roman customs and married Roman partners were more likely to be buried in inhumation graves than locals which abstained from both - cultural adaptation and mixture with the newcomers.

Nice! I see certain people think Aegean_BA and Illyrian_EIA as a two way model should be perfect for some E1b-V13 samples in this paper

 

[Riverman]

Nice! I see certain people think Aegean_BA and Illyrian_EIA as a two way model should be perfect for some E1b-V13 samples in this paper

The Himera and Vekerzug samples are way older and point in a different direction, being much closer to the Mezocsat-locals, which in my opinion would have had E-V13 too, but there was no male from the local population sampled, only a Cimmerian/steppe-related one. In Himera we also find a nearly 100 % Caucasian - together with a R-Z93 with the same profile, therefore we see the huge autosomal range (Mezocsat locals, Vekerzug, Himera North Balkan, Himera Caucasian, South Thracians etc.) already thousand years before these Roman era samples.

 

[Hawk]

Would be interesting to have samples from Dardanii, Macedonians, Epirotans and also Messapii (so far we have Dauni and Iapugii samples) to see how they end up.

 

[mount123]

Whether traditionally on 21st of Dimnor or in exact alignment with each year's winter solstice, I wish all Albanians who celebrate, a lightful Albanian Winter Solstice - Buzmi Bujar. Arbnorë ju deshiroj një festë të mbarë - Me fat Buzmi!



(Cred. 2014 plisi.org)

 

[Aspar]

One thing that does not get any mention in the E-V13 debates. E-V13 has shown up in Iron Age Celts as far as Britain if I recall correctly. So far it is has more presence among Iron Age Celts than Illyrians, and the single sample that is appropriated as Illyrian is questionable because it is on Celtic border zone, but even with that, Celts are equal to and in some regions have more E-V13 than Illyrians. An absurd situation for the proponents of a south-east Balkan homeland of E-V13 expansion.

What does the Illyrians have in common with the idea of a south-east Balkan homeland and expansion point for E-V13?
Based on language and other things among the rest, the Thracians and the Illyrians were totally unrelated people.
Plus, they weren't even neighbours for the most part and the only border they shared seems to be along Morava.
Unfortunately, we lack samples from exactly this area from the BA and the IA(most samples from Serbia from these periods come from far north).

The fact is, the process of spread of the Thracians can be followed archaeologically with the Stamped Ware and it's starting point is Bulgaria towards Romania and north-east. On the territory of Romania and the lower Danube these Thracian people interacted heavily with the La Tene Celts and the Scythians.

Now, I'm not denying any theories, I just think it's absurd to waste any energy about this and will leave it for the time to resolve this issue. We will get new samples in future that will help us to narrow down the territory where the origin is.

However you have to remember that even before the Stamped Ware from the EIA, most of the cultures in BA Bulgaria had more in common with the cultures from the Carpathian Basin and the lower Danube than say those from the West Balkans. Accordingly, movements way before the EIA of people and ideas from the regions in question are expected.

 

[Hawk]

What does the Illyrians have in common with the idea of a south-east Balkan homeland and expansion point for E-V13?
Based on language and other things among the rest, the Thracians and the Illyrians were totally unrelated people.
Plus, they weren't even neighbours for the most part and the only border they shared seems to be along Morava.
Unfortunately, we lack samples from exactly this area from the BA and the IA(most samples from Serbia from these periods come from far north).

The fact is, the process of spread of the Thracians can be followed archaeologically with the Stamped Ware and it's starting point is Bulgaria towards Romania and north-east. On the territory of Romania and the lower Danube these Thracian people interacted heavily with the La Tene Celts and the Scythians.

Now, I'm not denying any theories, I just think it's absurd to waste any energy about this and will leave it for the time to resolve this issue. We will get new samples in future that will help us to narrow down the territory where the origin is.

However you have to remember that even before the Stamped Ware from the EIA, most of the cultures in BA Bulgaria had more in common with the cultures from the Carpathian Basin and the lower Danube than say those from the West Balkans. Accordingly, movements way before the EIA of people and ideas from the regions in question are expected.

Worth noting that the Stamped-Ware cultural complex represented by Psenicevo, Insula-Banului and Babadag mainly, their origin is supposed to be Southern Carpathia and Northern Bulgaria.

And there is, there is relations to Gava Culture, but to what degree that relationship is, it is unknown at the moment, but i expect Gava to show E-V13, just not sure to what degree.

 

[Hawk]

Something that came to my attention is one particular Celtic group from Yorkshire called Arras Culture. They are unique from other Celtic groups in Britain in that their burials consist of burials with chariots and horses.

Arras culture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Other examples of chariot and horse burials come from Thracians: https://www.livescience.com/60678-thracian-chariot-on-reddit-explained.html

And interesting enough the Iron Age E-V13 from Croatia contains horse skeletons in the burials.

Sveti Križ Brdovečki (Holy Cross near Brdoveć) is a village on a hill at a height of 310m above sea level, located 30km west of Zagreb, near the Croatian-Slovenian border, directly above the confluence of the Sutla and Sava rivers. In October 2001, Adam Tursan came across a bronze helmet while digging foundations for a garage next to his house in Tursanova Street, which is located at the above site. The foundations dug for the garage by workmen measured 6 × 4 meters. The spot where the helmet was found was in the center. Other grave goods were discovered after cleaning the area. Other than skeletal remains of the deceased, the grave contained the skeleton of a horse, items of horse equipment (a bit, phalerae), several pieces of pottery, a rectangula bronze belt buckle, and several other bronze and iron finds that were removed together with the surrounding earth and that cannot yet be described with certainty. The (possible) weapons, horse equipment, and costume accessoires indicate the prominent social status of the deceased, buried in the Hallstatt D phase. Although it is not possible to fully evaluate the value and richness of the objects found in the grave prior to their final restoration and analysis, it can be statet with certainty that this is a find whose importance and significance will place Sv. Križ among the most prominent Hallstatt sites in Croatia.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/297359166_The_find_of_an_equestrian_grave_of_iron_age_at_sv_Kriz_Brdovecki_Croatia

Now, i am not implying that Arras Culture (usually connected with Parisii tribe) should have E-V13, possibly it could have some, who knows. But the overall Hallstatt connection of E-V13 is beyond doubt. Stamped-Ware Psenicevo, Insula Banului and Babadag are labelled also as the Hallstattization of the region when they expanded their domains. Likely Eastern Hallstatt or South-Eastern Urnfielder groups.

 

[Johane Derite]

What does the Illyrians have in common with the idea of a south-east Balkan homeland and expansion point for E-V13?
Based on language and other things among the rest, the Thracians and the Illyrians were totally unrelated people.
Plus, they weren't even neighbours for the most part and the only border they shared seems to be along Morava.
Unfortunately, we lack samples from exactly this area from the BA and the IA(most samples from Serbia from these periods come from far north).

The fact is, the process of spread of the Thracians can be followed archaeologically with the Stamped Ware and it's starting point is Bulgaria towards Romania and north-east. On the territory of Romania and the lower Danube these Thracian people interacted heavily with the La Tene Celts and the Scythians.

Now, I'm not denying any theories, I just think it's absurd to waste any energy about this and will leave it for the time to resolve this issue. We will get new samples in future that will help us to narrow down the territory where the origin is.

However you have to remember that even before the Stamped Ware from the EIA, most of the cultures in BA Bulgaria had more in common with the cultures from the Carpathian Basin and the lower Danube than say those from the West Balkans. Accordingly, movements way before the EIA of people and ideas from the regions in question are expected.

Sure, but stamped ware doesn't appear in Moesia where this is most definitely a Tharcian zone lingusitically, instead its channelled ware, which strongly supports riverman's argument.

 

[Riverman]

It wouldn't be a bad idea to say that, based on this simulation, he could have came from the southeastern part of the Chernogorovka complex (Cimmerian) or at least from some area of influence. It's already known that the Chernogorovka (multi)cultural complex shows strong material and genetic influences from the late Bronze Age Caucasus / Koban-Tersk (with obviously some minor Iran_N / Iran_ChL-related ancestry), Belozersk / Srubnaya-Alakul horizon and the Altai cultures (Karasuk / Mezhovskaya as well as its predecessors like Okunevo and Chemurchek).

Even though this individual apparently shows no influence from the late Bronze Age Western Steppe or the Altai, we must remember that some comrades here like Riverman have made some consistent links between E-V13 and the (Thraco-)Cimmerian expansion that is directly linked to the Chernogorovka complex. We also have the E-V13 sample KNT001 from a Kangju-Saka warrior from Kazakhstan who, in addition to having an Eastern Iranian genetic profile, appears to have came from a culture related to Novocherkassk complex (Chernogorovka continuity) as well as the (Scytho-)Sarmatians.

@Riverman

In this context it should mentioned that we got new modern Iranian samples, and with one recent branch connected to the English (could go either way), we again have two very old E-V13 branches, like Sea Peoples or Cimmerian old, no newer Thracian, Roman etc. settlers in the Near East. All of them come from Western Iran, but from different ethnicities.

That's the paper:

High incidence of AZF duplications in clan-structured Iranian populations detected through Y chromosome sequencing read depth analysis - Scientific Reports

The ampliconic region of the human Y chromosome consists of large duplicated sequences that can undergo non-allelic homologous recombination (NAHR), resulting in structural rearrangements that may cause infertility, especially when they occur in the azoospermia factor b/c (AZFb/c) region...

www.nature.com

In total there are 87 samples, of which 6 are E-M78, including

3 x E-V13 (E1b1b1a1b1a)

R009
Bakhtiari
Shahrekord, Chahar Mahal Bakhtiari Province, Iran
Nomadic
33,26
E1b1b-M78
E1b1b1a1b1a

R082
Persian
Tehran, Tehran Province, Iran
Sedentary
44,45
E1b1b-M78
E1b1b1a1b1a

R087
Azeri
Tabriz, East Azerbaijan Province,Iran
Sedentary
41,25
E1b1b-M78
E1b1b1a1b1a

According to Capsian, these are the subclades determined by theytree:

E-V13
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y62522/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y93395/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-S7461/

About 3,4 % is not that shabby for Iran, if just counting Western Iran, the percentage would be even higher in this sample.

In the Gulf Arabs E-V13 is even higher, but a lot of it can be attributed to a recent founder, whereas here the diversity seems to be fairly high as well.

 

[Riverman]

Something that came to my attention is one particular Celtic group from Yorkshire called Arras Culture. They are unique from other Celtic groups in Britain in that their burials consist of burials with chariots and horses.

Arras culture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Other examples of chariot and horse burials come from Thracians: https://www.livescience.com/60678-thracian-chariot-on-reddit-explained.html

And interesting enough the Iron Age E-V13 from Croatia contains horse skeletons in the burials.



Now, i am not implying that Arras Culture (usually connected with Parisii tribe) should have E-V13, possibly it could have some, who knows. But the overall Hallstatt connection of E-V13 is beyond doubt. Stamped-Ware Psenicevo, Insula Banului and Babadag are labelled also as the Hallstattization of the region when they expanded their domains. Likely Eastern Hallstatt or South-Eastern Urnfielder groups.

The safest association we got is with horse burials with cremated remains. That seems to have been a Vekerzug North Thracian speciality. But like always, we can't test those, which just left us with the Vekerzug Chotin sample, as an exception. In Chotin, where such burials (horse and cremation) were in usage, about 50 % of the local population cremated their dead. So we got 50 %, those most closely associated with the Upper Tisza Sanislau group, which being missed out.

Sure, but stamped ware doesn't appear in Moesia where this is most definitely a Tharcian zone lingusitically, instead its channelled ware, which strongly supports riverman's
argument.

There is even more to it, because just like with cremation, the Thracians revert in many regions back to a dominance of channelling, at the expense of the stamped motifs. Therefore channelling and knobs in the Gáva tradition fade never out, especially the cannelure, but other elements being added. And some generations later people which used Stamped Pottery and inhumation, as long as the Cimmerians were a thing, so to say, revert back to old style Channelled Ware and cremation!
What this means is there is a deep rooted, fundamental connection between the two elements of the Thracian culture, which kind of fused in the EIA to the sphere of Stamped Pottery/kantharoi in this Basarabi-Early Hallstatt horizon.

Basarabi as the most important group of the EIA was born in South Western Romania, right at the meeting point of Belegis II-Gáva, Vartop and other Channelled Ware dominated groups, the transitional phenomenon of Kalakacza and the final development to Bosut-Basarabi.
That's why the Gomolava remains are so interesting and relevant, because regardless of which of these groups they belong, most likely is Kalakaczsa, they are all relevant to the topic and to the movements in the area before we know about the historical Daco-Thracian tribes in that area.

 

[Robotnick]

Something that came to my attention is one particular Celtic group from Yorkshire called Arras Culture. They are unique from other Celtic groups in Britain in that their burials consist of burials with chariots and horses.

Arras culture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Other examples of chariot and horse burials come from Thracians: https://www.livescience.com/60678-thracian-chariot-on-reddit-explained.html

And interesting enough the Iron Age E-V13 from Croatia contains horse skeletons in the burials.



Now, i am not implying that Arras Culture (usually connected with Parisii tribe) should have E-V13, possibly it could have some, who knows. But the overall Hallstatt connection of E-V13 is beyond doubt. Stamped-Ware Psenicevo, Insula Banului and Babadag are labelled also as the Hallstattization of the region when they expanded their domains. Likely Eastern Hallstatt or South-Eastern Urnfielder groups.

It's Cuz the Parisii were named after Paris the Trojan. Trojan Elites were largely Dardani, Mysian, Phrygian etc... all of Daco-Thracian stock and exiled across Europe and different parts since the fall of Troy. Doesn't the modern day Paris-area have high E-V13?

Again, I'm joking. But the parallels are fun to think about.

 

[Hawk]

It's Cuz the Parisii were named after Paris the Trojan. Trojan Elites were largely Dardani, Mysian, Phrygian etc... all of Daco-Thracian stock and exiled across Europe and different parts since the fall of Troy. Doesn't the modern day Paris-area have high E-V13?

Again, I'm joking. But the parallels are fun to think about.

And they were all Pelasgian-Illyrian a.k.a Albanian race anyway.