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Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

Wonomyro said:
It is impossible to identify Dacians as we don’t have any reference point like an ancient autosomal Dacian sample, nor a single haplogroup. Therefore we can’t state that Romanians are “mostly Dacians”. We simply don’t know.
Click to expand...

We have a Thracian reference, Balkans Iron Age I5769 from Dzyulyunitsa in Northeastern Bulgaria. Considering that Dacians lived on both shores of the Danube and then retreated into the mountains, it is safe to assume that they are really similar autosomally.

Who is Balkans I5769 closest to today? Albanians, even though they too have inflated Eastern Hunter Gatherer ancestry, which after the Iron Age could have come mostly with the Slavs. There aren't many other candidates.

Everyone in the Balkans, together with mainland Greeks, are best modeled as 3-way mixtures of this Thracian, late Bronze Age Greeks and the medieval Slav from Bohemia.

I even created a calculator for this, Balkans K4

[TABLE="width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD]Thracian + Greek[/TD]
[TD]Slavic[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[TD]92%[/TD]
[TD]6%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[TD]87%[/TD]
[TD]13%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bulgarian[/TD]
[TD]70%[/TD]
[TD]30%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Macedonian[/TD]
[TD]65%[/TD]
[TD]35%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Romanian[/TD]
[TD]65%[/TD]
[TD]35%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Serbian[/TD]
[TD]60%[/TD]
[TD]40%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Montenegrin[/TD]
[TD]60%[/TD]
[TD]40%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Moldovan[/TD]
[TD]50%[/TD]
[TD]50%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bosnian[/TD]
[TD]45%[/TD]
[TD]55%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Croatian[/TD]
[TD]35%[/TD]
[TD]65%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Slovenian[/TD]
[TD]30%[/TD]
[TD]70%
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
This is the old flag of Muntenia:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Coat_of_arms_of_Wallachia_Voivodship.png
It was never called Wallachia, but Muntenia, because most land is composed of mountains.

Oltenia comes the river Olt.
Together they were composing Tara Romaneasca.


However, this is off-topic.

The intention of the author that opened this thread is to find out about the Aromanians ancestry, not about the Romanians ancestry.
Would be really interesting to see some deep clades analysis of the Aromanians paternal lines.
I am really curious what kind of R1B they have and what kind of I.
 
JajarBingan said:
We have a Thracian reference, Balkans Iron Age I5769 from Dzyulyunitsa in Northeastern Bulgaria. Considering that Dacians lived on both shores of the Danube and then retreated into the mountains, it is safe to assume that they are really similar autosomally.

Who is Balkans I5769 closest to today? Albanians, even though they too have inflated Eastern Hunter Gatherer ancestry, which after the Iron Age could have come mostly with the Slavs. There aren't many other candidates.
Click to expand...
What's the yDNA of that Thracian? Provided that they extracted yDNA.
 
Fatherland said:
What's the yDNA of that Thracian? Provided that they extracted yDNA.
Click to expand...

They didn't.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/v...V8&ll=43.35697442893692,27.23581197103931&z=8

The Early Neolithic settlement of Dzhulyunitsa-Smardesh is located in north central Bulgaria,near the slanting northern slopes of the Pre-Balkan, where it is conterminal with the Danubianplain. This area is part of the Middle Yantra river valley which belongs to the Lower Danubecatchment. The site is situated on the first unflooded terrace, in a field called Smardesh, at analtitude of between 70 and 77 m. It is 4 km south of the current location of the Yantra and 2-3km west of its tributaries - the rivers Stara and Zlatarishka. The Early Neolithc site occupies approximately 10 hectares, decreasing in its final phase to ~0.5 ha.4,5 Dzhulyunitsa-Smardeshhas been excavated from 2001 up to present, revealing that the terrace was inhabited throughall periods. Graves were unearthed dating to the Late Iron Age, Early Bronze Age, LateChalcolithic and Early Neolithic. The Late Chalcolithic graves probably belong to anecropolis situated SE of the Chalcolithic settlement.

* I5769 / No 8 (Iron Age, grave 9)Sub-adult female. This Iron Age burial was found in an oval pit in sq. 3611. The skeleton inflexed position and is turned to the east. Orientation of the body is SE-NW, with the head toSE. The grave inventory consists of ornamental beads and 21 metal (probably copper)ornaments smaller than 5 mm.
 
IE,traditional Romanian blouse for women and girls,the word comes from Latin linea(linen):


http://www.almanahonline.ro/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/ie-cu-margele3.png

https://www.invietraditia.ro/wp/wp-...-maro-cu-maneca-scurta-model-18-3-870x870.jpg

Woman dress,the Arges finest,it is found on the Thraco-Illyrian tombstones from the Zagreb museum,according to specialists:


http://artainromania.ro/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/45_42-137x300.jpg


http://amfostacolo.ro/FOTO/GENUINE/d005/5895/6240_21965_1.jpg
 
mihaitzateo said:
This is the old flag of Muntenia:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Coat_of_arms_of_Wallachia_Voivodship.png
It was never called Wallachia, but Muntenia, because most land is composed of mountains.

Oltenia comes the river Olt.
Together they were composing Tara Romaneasca.
Click to expand...
Very true, I think that Walahia is a name given by strangers to this place.I have not heard anywhere in Romania nickname like :petrified:Wallachian. Ancient inhabitants called themselves Români or Rumâni. Even my grandparents used to call themselves Rumâni.
In Romania is no Walah... or Valah surname. But is full of surnames like Munteanu, Olteanu, Moldoveanu and Ardeleanu.
 
About some Pan-Balkanic Latin words

Latin major,maiorem,has the sense to big*(in size),large,great, in both Dalmatian(maur) and Romanian (mare),while the Western Romance languages have kept other meanings.


Romanian etymology was disputed,but I already proved,probably on this thread, ,because we have the expression "fata mare", literally ,"a big girl",that means a virgin,reached to maturity, and maiorem in Romance is connected to adulthood, here we got to the common point with Western Latin,before the sense split.


Overgeneralization of "bigger,more important" in the Balkans, Danube area and Illyricum comes from the apearance,in these frontier zones of the military commanders,that took the political control to become the so-called Illyrian Emperors, who moved the Capital to Sirmium,Constantine saying "Serdica is my Rome", Galerius claiming that the Empire should be called Dacian.



The Balkanic word is attested by Procopius in the Iron Gates area,on the Danube,Mareburgu(Big Fortress)**,the same form with the Romanian,very different from Dalmatian.


http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Procopius/Buildings/4B*.html



*the same sense with the Italian grande
**to be compared with Burgualtu,High Fortress.
 
Last edited:
JajarBingan said:
Most land is flat.
Click to expand...
If you think Muntenia is lowlands, how about Netherlands : ) ?
Depends what you are understanding by most. If you understand by most more than 50% and flat what is below 100m altitude,that is possible.

Here is the physical map of Muntenia:
http://www.locatiicazare.ro/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/hartaTURISTICA-muntenia.jpg
Is very possible that 50% or more from the land of Muntenia is lowlands/plains.
Depends what is considered plains,now. Ploiesti is considered in the plains or in the hills?
Pitesti? I think Pitesti is considered to be in the hills.
The origin of the name comes from the mountains:
https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntenia#Originea_numelui

If you go from Bucharest to Giurgiu, you will notice that even in these "flat lands" some villages are having hills near them.
Not even Bucharest is on pure flat land, we have Dealul de la Universistate :) , Dealul de la Sincai/Tineretului metro station , dealul de la Cotroceni and so on :) .
https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dealul_Spirii
:)
https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dealul_Mitropoliei
:) :)
https://dreamtrips.ro/2011/05/palatul-cotroceni.html

So as you can see, Bucharest is not actually in pure flat lands but in a small hills area!
Did not number the hills from Bucharest to check if there are 7 as in Rome, but who knows ;) .


@Dreptul Valah:
Mate this thread is supposed to be about the Y DNA of the Aromanians.
No one is contesting the fact that our language is Latin.
 
Dreptul Valah said:
IE,traditional Romanian blouse for women and girls,the word comes from Latin linea(linen): http://www.almanahonline.ro/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/ie-cu-margele3.png https://www.invietraditia.ro/wp/wp-...-maro-cu-maneca-scurta-model-18-3-870x870.jpg Woman dress,the Arges finest,it is found on the Thraco-Illyrian tombstones from the Zagreb museum,according to specialists: http://artainromania.ro/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/45_42-137x300.jpg http://amfostacolo.ro/FOTO/GENUINE/d005/5895/6240_21965_1.jpg
Click to expand...
How do these dresses from the museum are related to the "Thraco-Illyrian tombstones"?
 
Wonomyro said:
How do these dresses from the museum are related to the "Thraco-Illyrian tombstones"?
Click to expand...


They are not only from the museums,women from the country side still use them,those from Arges are considered the most beautiful,but they are found in other places from Wallachia,plus,Moldavia has something close.
In an English study,they spoke about it,there was a picture with a pillar,post,called perhaps Stella,that had a woman drawed with this kind of skirt.

EDIT

The blouses are something different, it has nothing to do with the pieces from the Zagreb museum,I have posted them,because they are worldwide used in fashion,for decades,in the 70's American celebrities and Brigitte Bardot,used to wear them.
@mihaitza
Don't push it.
 
Dreptul Valah said:
They are not only from the museums,women from the country side still use them,those from Arges are considered the most beautiful,but they are found in other places from Wallachia,plus,Moldavia have something close.
Click to expand...
Ok, but what concrete feature of the blouses relates to Thracian thombstones? I've seen similar costumes related to other Slavs. Especially the white-red type in the first image.
 
Wonomyro said:
Ok, but what concrete feature of the blouses relates to Thracian thombstones? I've seen similar costumes related to other Slavs. Especially the white-red type in the first image.
Click to expand...

I have edited the last post to respond at this question.


There are lots of models,many of them geometrical, mostly with straight,straight angle,lines,some of them inherited, others,changed,for fashion.


Usually,most of these shirts had been all white or with little models,this kind is still widely in use.


The blouses,ie,can put some men into difficult situations,because,the woman's neck is very exposed,but the bust isn't that much,so you'll start to ask yourself some questions...and the response has to be quick.


That S-shape model from one skirt,I've seen on pieces,pottery or other,from the Bronze or Iron Age.
 
Last edited:
mihaitzateo said:
This is the old flag of Muntenia:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Coat_of_arms_of_Wallachia_Voivodship.png
It was never called Wallachia, but Muntenia, because most land is composed of mountains.
Oltenia comes the river Olt.
Together they were composing Tara Romaneasca.
However, this is off-topic.
The intention of the author that opened this thread is to find out about the Aromanians ancestry, not about the Romanians ancestry.
Would be really interesting to see some deep clades analysis of the Aromanians paternal lines.
I am really curious what kind of R1B they have and what kind of I.
Click to expand...
I can help you with some deep clades but not specifically with R1b or I!
I have done quite an extensive test on my DNA, I have test with BIG-500!
My subclade is determined as E-Y16729*: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y16729/
You can find my y-str markers, on the E-M35 project!
On the YFULL tree, I don't have a close match, or in other words, I don't share any other snp under Y16729, with the others who belong to the same subclade as me.
However, I do have a very close match on 67 y-str markers with a distance of 4!
I have done some investigations about this match of mine and I found out that he is from USA, however his more distant origin is from South Albania!
This guy declare himself as Greek!
Now the interesting part is, both me and him, have a very specific haplotype which is only shared by Aromanians from Dukasi, Albania and Stip, Macedonia which I found on yhrd.org!
The Aromanians from Stip, are also with origin from South Albania as they came in Stip as refugees only in 18th century!
I already posted about that in this thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26718-Vlach-haplogroups-deep-ancestry/page19?p=544
Two other Italians from North Italy and one Szekely from Romania, also share our specific haplotype, although on minimal markers as the Aromanians do as well.
There is no doubt in me that I form my own branch under Y16729 with these Aromanians and my close y-str67 match!
Also, my paternal origins are from a village in a region, formerly known as Vlacho Meglen!
Vasil Kanchov, the Bulgarian ethnographer, had written for this village that it's a Vlach village which was in late stage of Bulgarization!
I have written about it in this thread of mine: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35552-E-y16729
He also puts this village in the group of Meglen-Vlach villages.
However this a mistake, because by my own research, I have found out that the village itself was formed by refugees from South Albania!
There is a village with a similar name in South Albania, Konckë!
The village is located in the Gyrocastro region and interestingly, I have two close a-dna matches from Thesprotia in Greece, just over the border, not very far away from Konckë!
It is worth mentioning that the difference between me(13) on one side, and my y-str 67 match and the Aromanians (12) on the other side is the marker DYS439 on minimal haplotype!
You can find the Aromanian haplotypes in the Bosh's study of 2006: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x
Also, it's worth mentioning that so far in the Balkans, Y16729 is found only in me, a Bulgarian from Strandza, South East Bulgaria and probably, the Aromanians in question with who I probably form our own branch under Y16729!
It's pitty that this very good thread has been hijacked by some Romanians!
 
@Aspar
with this attitude, you won't stay long here.
And,for Kanchov and other warrior-farmers,I really think it's time to skip some meals.
 
Aspar said:
I can help you with some deep clades but not specifically with R1b or I!
I have done quite an extensive test on my DNA, I have test with BIG-500!
My subclade is determined as E-Y16729*: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y16729/
You can find my y-str markers, on the E-M35 project!
On the YFULL tree, I don't have a close match, or in other words, I don't share any other snp under Y16729, with the others who belong to the same subclade as me.
However, I do have a very close match on 67 y-str markers with a distance of 4!
I have done some investigations about this match of mine and I found out that he is from USA, however his more distant origin is from South Albania!
This guy declare himself as Greek!
Now the interesting part is, both me and him, have a very specific haplotype which is only shared by Aromanians from Dukasi, Albania and Stip, Macedonia!
The Aromanians from Stip,
I already posted about that in this thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26718-Vlach-haplogroups-deep-ancestry/page19?p=544
Two other Italians from North Italy and one Szekely from Romania, also share our specific haplotype, although on minimal markers as the Aromanians do as well.
There is no doubt in me that I form my own branch under Y16729 with these Aromanians and my close y-str67 match!
Also, my paternal origins are from a village in a region, formerly known as Vlacho Meglen!
Vasil Kanchov, the Bulgarian ethnographer, had written for this village that it's a Vlach village which was in late stage of Bulgarization!
I have written about it in this thread of mine: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35552-E-y16729
He also puts this village in the group of Meglen-Vlach villages.
However this a mistake, because by my own research, I have found out that the village itself was formed by refugees from South Albania!
There is a village with a similar name in South Albania, Konckë!
The village is located in the Gyrocastro region and interestingly, I have two close a-dna matches from Thesprotia in Greece, just over the border, not very far away from Konckë!
It is worth mentioning that the difference between me(13) on one side, and my y-str 67 match and the Aromanians (12) on the other side is the marker DYS439 on minimal haplotype!
You can find the Aromanian haplotypes in the Bosh's study of 2006: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x
Also, it's worth mentioning that so far in the Balkans, Y16729 is found only in me, a Bulgarian from Strandza, South East Bulgaria and probably, the Aromanians in question with who I probably form our own branch under Y16729!

It's pitty that this very good thread has been hijacked by some Romanians!
Click to expand...
Aromanians are also calling themselves Machedoni, from Macedonia.
So, it seems is not a legend that they call themselves Machedoni.
Wonder if those North Italians are having their Y DNA from Balkans, also, because this is how it looks to me.
Aromanian is a dialect of Romanian.Is not exactly Romanian language.
As physical look, Aromanians do not look very different from Romanians.
You will not see Aromanian looking Slavic or Germanic.
For Romanians, is not same.
 
mihaitzateo said:
Aromanians are also calling themselves Machedoni, from Macedonia.
So, it seems is not a legend that they call themselves Machedoni.
Wonder if those North Italians are having their Y DNA from Balkans, also, because this is how it looks to me.
Aromanian is a dialect of Romanian.Is not exactly Romanian language.
As physical look, Aromanians do not look very different from Romanians.
You will not see Aromanian looking Slavic or Germanic.
For Romanians, is not same.
Click to expand...

It's only a minimal haplotype so the Italians might not be the same clade at all!
I have 12/12 y-str English matches who belong to totally different clade, S7461!
 
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