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Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

Another thing, Corsica has 49% R1B, which is very likely mostly R1B-M269.
Sardinia has a history which is based on the reality, that Roman Empire conquered them.
No idea if the current Sardinian language is related to old Sardinia language.
EDIT:
New genetic testing shows without any doubt that Romans/Latin speakers were very,very clearly from the Celto-Italic people and spread R1B:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Italy#Y-DNA_genetic_diversity
In the village of Garfagnana from Tuscany, R1B is 76.2%.
Also, there is significant I1 in Italy, from the Germanic people that mixed with Italo-Celtic Romans and gave modern Italy population.
In two villages from Lazio, it was recorded I1 of 35% and 28%.
So, we Romanians clearly speak a Celto_Italic language, but we do not have so much R1B as someone would expect.
Another paternal line that should have belonged to original Italic Romans seems to be J2.What branch I have no idea.
Now J2 is quite diverse in Europe.
 
Dreptul Valah said:
For the realities in the Byzantine Empire, I present this specific scientific evidence;and I don't want to be over interpreted.


The Romanians have inherited the words for body parts from both Latin and Dacian,almost all from those intimate ,both for men and women also,except for the word for woman's genitalia,pizda,which is Slavic.


The anthropologic and ethnographic evidence suggests a clear continuity on the female part,with many Dacian and Latin elements preserved, like dress articles with specific names,cooking tools,products,and mythology,Zana(Diana;a fairy),Sanziana,Sanziene(Sancta Diana),women names,inherited in Romanian.


My opinion is that during the existence of the military Vlach category in the Byzantine Empire,the Romanians had some access to women from different ethnic groups, most numerous were the Slavs.


That's why the Slavic term became a "fashion" in the Romanian communities, not to mention that their women have always been appreciated for beauty and gallantry.


It is extremely interesting Orel's etymology for the Albanian word,pidh;according to him,although it ultimately has a Slavic etymology,it doesn't follow the phonetic rules,zd doesn't become dh in Albanian.

But,the thing is,that the Albanian dh is the same with the Romanian z,dz,for example


A modhullue,R madzare,mazare
A dhalle,R dzer,zer



In other words,the Albanian pidh was borrowed from the Romanians,more specifically, Daco-Romanians, because in Aromanian ,p switches to c,chizda.
Click to expand...

Any scholar who supports this supposed borrowing of Albanian from Romanian or just your personal conclusion?
 
LABERIA said:
Any scholar who supports this supposed borrowing of Albanian from Romanian or just your personal conclusion?
Click to expand...
It's my idea;Orel decided that the Albanian word comes somehow from Slavic,because the IE root,compound, meaning, can only be found in the Balto-Slavic languages.


And he says:"However,when preceded by voiced consonants,*zd was dissimilated to ts,th",it should've been pith,if it was a direct borrowing.
 
mihaitzateo said:
(...)
Our language is clearly part of the Celto-Italic group, but , very very weird our Y DNA ,for the moment, seems distant from the Y DNA of Celto-Italic speakers.
Spain,France,Belgium,UK and the Republic of Ireland, all have over 50% R1B-M269 .
Italy got 39% R1B,totally, but if you take the Celto-Roman areas, like the Center and the North, there you find 53% R1B in Tuscany or 49.5% R1B in North Italy.

Netherlands and South Germany are also having significant R1B-M269.

Our I2-a seems that it might be clustering with Sardinia I2-a, but are quite different branches.
We have some kind of I2-din,but most of it is not similar with the I2-din found in ex-Yugos.
Click to expand...

Yes. Because I think Y-haplogroups are not a good sign of genetic kinship. Under certain conditions, these haplogoups can change radically very quickly inside the same "ethnic" group, leaving only minimal signs of change in the initial autosomal baggage.
I have exposed here:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ps-frequencies?p=551805&viewfull=1#post551805
And that probably can explain many things. Like diferent groups which looks close autosomaly but having diferent Y-haplogroups.
 
gidai said:
I think Y-haplogroups are not a good sign of genetic kinship. Because, under certain conditions, these haplogoups can change radically very quickly inside the same same "ethnic" group, leaving only minimal signs in the autosomal baggage. I have exposed here:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ps-frequencies?p=551805&viewfull=1#post551805
And that probably can explain many things. Like diferent groups who look close autosomaly but having diferent Y-haplogroups.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you !!


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum
 
gidai said:
Yes. Because I think Y-haplogroups are not a good sign of genetic kinship. Under certain conditions, these haplogoups can change radically very quickly inside the same "ethnic" group, leaving only minimal signs of change in the initial autosomal baggage.
I have exposed here:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ps-frequencies?p=551805&viewfull=1#post551805
And that probably can explain many things. Like diferent groups which looks close autosomaly but having diferent Y-haplogroups.
Click to expand...
Maybe the old people of Romania were related to Sardinians.
And Dacians were bearing R1B-M269 clades and also other HGs like J2 and I do not know, maybe even some R1A.
Dacians conquered and assimilated the people from the area.
There is a peak of R1B in SE Romania, here R1B peaks over 20%.
 
There are some words here,with exactly the same spelling and accents like in Romanian:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxGPNIN2RIs


From 4:13,


"Cine,ieu?", that's" Who,me?",the other one responded "io",pronounced very different than in standard Italian,but the same as the Romanian word.


ieu-the popular form for I/me,in Wallachia


io-the same meaning, north of the country

"Ca pecurari suntu",that's Romanian for " They are like shepherds."
 
LABERIA said:
Any scholar who supports this supposed borrowing of Albanian from Romanian or just your personal conclusion?
Click to expand...



I don't think it's the case to be more Catholics than the Pope when it comes to dirty words,because the manliness has to be expressed also sexually,in any kind.*


Still,for the Romanian countryside society, this is a private thing,where people in isolated groups talk about it,the tone is manly,harsher, rougher,than usually, but quite serious and relaxed,surely not over explicit.



The other situation is when people get angry,but again it's only about wrath and force,not on writing anatomy manuals,we do have this word,aprig,from Latin apricus,it also means angry,tensed, and like etymology says heathen.



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/aprig




https://books.google.ro/books?id=wB...age&q=traditional hungarian sexuality&f=false



Since this is strictly a man thing,we are very harsh with women that try to use these words...


*any kind means different ways,not any situation
 
Last edited:
To the Northern European populations,like Germanics or Slavs(ancient Romans included),manliness is generally a very static thing,they are mostly Judgers,and sexuality included comes as a burden that they have to carry, look what it happens when it drops:


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bocskairadio.org/en/marry-hungarian-woman/amp/



While for the Paleo-Balkanics it was about the intensity and attitude, these are Perceivers qualities, as I already explained.


On the loose personality test,I surely scored both Sensing and Intuition the most,equally, I'm a Perceiver.
 
Last edited:
The Vikings,Celts,Paleo-Balkanics, were all Perceivers, look what it happened, when they caught the heavily organized Judgers on their very big blind spot,see The Eagle, 9th Legion.
 
Last edited:
While the Perceiver is a natural leader with many followers, the Judger compensates with heavy training and indoctrination.



From the first category, Spartacus, somehow knew that he's,let's not be modest here, better,that's why didn't stop to make big goals,targets.



Teuta,a typical character for the more dominant Perceivers,since these can have a very high adversity or repulsion to Judgers,she plays a common game here,pretending to be "weaker"," her government had no right to try to stop people from engaging in it",very similar to Decebalus,in the Dacian Wars.


In reality ,these more dominant P's can mentally reach where no Judger dreams,that's why


http://inyourfacewomen.blogspot.com/2012/10/queen-teuta.html?m=1


a very different type of leader is Genghis Khan,many J's had a very harsh childhood.
 
The Old Romanian word for grapes,aua,is still used in Wallachia, namely Oltenia,suggesting a weaker Slavization at the hierarchical levels in the area.



Another Wallachian term is branca,a hand,from Latin branca,very productive,the compounds are used for physical activities, meaning, to push somebody, to plunge,to dive.



Since in Latin branca is the word for paw,foot,the semantic shift proves the existence in Dacia and on the Danube of local Paleo-Balkanic soldiers,used for keeping the Frontier, scouting,tracking.



The third Wallachian word is paranga,a perch,a bar on which two people carry a weight, from Latin phalanga(that wereused for transporting siege weapons), see the Parang mountains,located on an area that belonged to Litovoi.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parâng_Mountains


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/branca#Latin



https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/auă#Romanian




https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/părângă
 
Even in the 18th ,19th c. Old Romanian names were extremely common among the local Wallachian lords,like Viezure,Bucur(Bucuresti),Serban,etc.
 
Dreptul Valah said:
Even in the 18th ,19th c. Old Romanian names were extremely common among the local Wallachian lords,like Viezure,Bucur(Bucuresti),Serban,etc.
Click to expand...

What is the meaning of the name Bucur, any ethymology available?
 
mihaitzateo said:
Maybe the old people of Romania were related to Sardinians.
And Dacians were bearing R1B-M269 clades and also other HGs like J2 and I do not know, maybe even some R1A.
Dacians conquered and assimilated the people from the area.
There is a peak of R1B in SE Romania, here R1B peaks over 20%.
Click to expand...

Where are your sources?

The Thracians were "related" to modern Sardinians only by having shared loads of Farmer ancestry, near Mycenean levels. That was pretty typical for those parts of Europe who had the numbers to absorb the Indo-European migrants without getting altogether genetically replaced by them.

We don't know what haplogroups Dacians might have beared. The only Thracian that is available is a female.
But it's clear that someone has to fill the void for E-V13, J2a1 and J2b2, for which the source populations are currently unknown.

My bet for J2a1 are on Minoans and late Myceneans (they are confirmed J2a1), who might have spread it further North to Romania, via Hellenised Thracians and Greek settlements.
J2b2 seems to peak in Albanians, but I'm not familiar enough with the situation to assert whether that's a bottleneck or the source for the proper origin.
In Romania the split between J2a1 and J2b2 seems to be roughly 80/20.

E-V13 peaks in Kosovars, but given the number of samples, that's most likely a false signal. Otherwise, it's found at high levels in Bulgarians, Albanians and then Serbs. That looks to me like something Thracian/Dacian (however I'm also leaning towards R1b-Z2103 for the Dacians at least), but that's all speculation without data.

R1a and I2a are pretty self-explanatory. The varieties in Romania and the Balkans (R1a-CTS1211, R1a-M458, R1a-Z92 and I2a-CTS10228) are quite new and almost certainly attributable to the Slavic migrations of the early medieval period. Interestingly, Moldova is the outlier, where there is a noticeable presence for the Iranic/Scythian R1a-Z93.

Compared to the rest from the above R1b hasn't been studied properly, but Maciamo suggests that the majority of the available R1b samples in Romania are of the Z2103 variety. This draws a parallel to R1a-Z93, because they both seem to have an Iranic connection.

However, if we were to look at YFull for R1b, then there are 10 samples from Romania:
2x R-Y14300 (Z2103 Iranic)
R-V3476 (ZZ12 Yamnaya? spread across Europe)
R-DF13 (L21 Celtic)
R-L2 (U152 Italic)
R-Z9 (L48 Germanic)
R-Y23373 (Z2103 Iranic)
R-Y19860 (Z2103 Iranic)
R-Y11410 (Z2103 Iranic)
R-BY16680 (PF7562 looks Eastern European, but also present in Armenians)

So, even if the sample size is too small, the distribution amounts to 50% Scythian/Iranic, 10% Italic, 10% Celtic, 10% Germanic, 10% Eastern European and 10% all purpose).

-----------------------------

For regional breakdowns of haplogroups in Romania, you may use this repository:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oc6XHFXRaZI4LBs28q4NnESRdCs8_35M8NNxZ5kyhKU/edit?usp=sharing
 
Last edited:
I have written previously my opinion, regarding I2-din:
Goths and Thracians lived together and mingled. People of Thraco-Gothic ancestry were assimilated somehow by the migrating Slavs.
After Slavs assimilated these people and stood in the current SW Ukraine and Hungary land,for a period of time, they migrated in the current of ex-Yugoslavia.
All ex-Yugos are scoring heavily East Balkanic admixture and some or significant Pannonia admixture.
Goths appeared in the lands of Romania around 250 AD or so.
However, Thracians were living North of Romania also.Goths migrated slowly, so Goths and Thracian lived North of Romania.
Later it seems they have been assimilated by the Slavs.
These Slavic speakers moved to the lands of ex-Yugo and from these Slavic speakers that mingled with locals appeared the South Slavs.

Romania I2-din is different from ex-Yugo I2-din.
Another thing, neither Romanians, neither ex-Yugos score much NE European admixture, neither much Baltic admixture.
So, actually neither the Goths neither the Slavs did not left too much genetic.

If Thracians mingled with Goths and adopted different things from Goths and later, were assimilated by a Slavic elite, does that make I2-din Gothic or Slavic?
I do not think so.
 
mihaitzateo said:
People of Thraco-Gothic ancestry were assimilated somehow by the migrating Slavs.

Romania I2-din is different from ex-Yugo I2-din.
Click to expand...

They were assimilated based on what? Written sources, archaeological data, DNA samples? As far as I'm aware that's just a speculation.
Y3120 encompasses all of I2a1 in Romania and the Balkan countries and it split 2.2k years ago.
That's way too late for Thracians.

Goth was an umbrella term for Northern raiders. We have an Ostrogothic and Gepid sample and they look way too wild for both Germans and Balkan people.

[TABLE="class: json-to-table, width: 1184"]
[TR]
[TH="class: jsl, bgcolor: #F3F3F3"][/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Input[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Group[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Name[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Details[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Fit[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]1[/TD]
[TD]Gepid_Serbia_ACD:VIM_2[/TD]
[TD]Germany_Medieval_ACD[/TD]
[TD]AED_1108[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]5.426[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]2[/TD]
[TD]Gepid_Serbia_ACD:VIM_2[/TD]
[TD]Tatar_Lipka[/TD]
[TD]Tatar_Lipka2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]5.803[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]3[/TD]
[TD]Gepid_Serbia_ACD:VIM_2[/TD]
[TD]Tatar_Lipka[/TD]
[TD]Tatar_Lipka5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]6.01[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]4[/TD]
[TD]Gepid_Serbia_ACD:VIM_2[/TD]
[TD]Tatar_Lipka[/TD]
[TD]Average[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]6.155[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]5[/TD]
[TD]Gepid_Serbia_ACD:VIM_2[/TD]
[TD]Tatar_Lipka[/TD]
[TD]Tatar_Lipka3[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]6.306[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]6[/TD]
[TD]Gepid_Serbia_ACD:VIM_2[/TD]
[TD]Tatar_Lipka[/TD]
[TD]Tatar_Lipka4[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]6.714[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]7[/TD]
[TD]Gepid_Serbia_ACD:VIM_2[/TD]
[TD]Tatar_Lipka[/TD]
[TD]Tatar_Lipka6[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]6.926[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]8[/TD]
[TD]Gepid_Serbia_ACD:VIM_2[/TD]
[TD]Tatar[/TD]
[TD]tatars5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]7.434[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]9[/TD]
[TD]Gepid_Serbia_ACD:VIM_2[/TD]
[TD]Tatar[/TD]
[TD]tatars1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]7.496[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



[TABLE="class: json-to-table, width: 1184"]
[TR]
[TH="class: jsl, bgcolor: #F3F3F3"][/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Input[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Group[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Name[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Details[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Fit[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]1[/TD]
[TD]Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1[/TD]
[TD]Turkish_Istanbul[/TD]
[TD]Average[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]4.539[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]2[/TD]
[TD]Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[TD]B_Crete-2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]4.592[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]3[/TD]
[TD]Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1[/TD]
[TD]Turkish_Kayseri[/TD]
[TD]Kayseri24402[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]4.659[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]4[/TD]
[TD]Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1[/TD]
[TD]Armenia_ChL[/TD]
[TD]Average[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]4.741[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]5[/TD]
[TD]Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[TD]Average[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]4.797[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]6[/TD]
[TD]Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1[/TD]
[TD]Armenia_ChL[/TD]
[TD]I1632[/TD]
[TD]BCE:4115 [/TD]
[TD]4.833[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]7[/TD]
[TD]Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1[/TD]
[TD]Turkish_Kayseri[/TD]
[TD]Kayseri24392[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]4.836[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]8[/TD]
[TD]Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi_Jew[/TD]
[TD]ashkenazy3e[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]4.839[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]9[/TD]
[TD]Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD:KER_1[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central_Anatolia[/TD]
[TD]G25003[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]4.848[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


mihaitzateo said:
Another thing, neither Romanians, neither ex-Yugos score much NE European admixture, neither much Baltic admixture.
Click to expand...


Based on what?

[TABLE="class: json-to-table, width: 1184"]
[TR]
[TH="class: jsl, bgcolor: #F3F3F3"][/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Model[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Sample[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Details[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Fit[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Mongols Et Al.[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Pre-Slavic Greek World K4[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Pre-Slavic Thracian World K4[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Slavic Migration[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]1[/TD]
[TD]Mongols et al. +Pre-Slavic_Greek_World_K4 +Pre-Slavic_Thracian_World_K4 +Slavic Migration[/TD]
[TD]Romanian:Average[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1.3414[/TD]
[TD]0.83[/TD]
[TD]10.83[/TD]
[TD]45.83[/TD]
[TD]42.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]2[/TD]
[TD]Mongols et al. +Pre-Slavic_Greek_World_K4 +Pre-Slavic_Thracian_World_K4 +Slavic Migration[/TD]
[TD]Serbian:Average[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1.7051[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]9.17[/TD]
[TD]42.5[/TD]
[TD]48.33[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="class: json-to-table, width: 1184"]
[TR]
[TH="class: jsl, bgcolor: #F3F3F3"][/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Model[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Sample[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Details[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Fit[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Map[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Balkans IA[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Baltic IA[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Gepid Serbia ACD[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F3F3F3"]Ostrogothic Crimea ACD[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]1[/TD]
[TD]Balkans_IA +Baltic_IA +Gepid_Serbia_ACD +Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD[/TD]
[TD]Romanian:Average[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1.986[/TD]
[TD]Open Map[/TD]
[TD]48.33[/TD]
[TD]32.5[/TD]
[TD]6.67[/TD]
[TD]12.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: jsl"]2[/TD]
[TD]Balkans_IA +Baltic_IA +Gepid_Serbia_ACD +Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD[/TD]
[TD]Serbian:Average[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1.9248[/TD]
[TD]Open Map[/TD]
[TD]46.67[/TD]
[TD]36.67[/TD]
[TD]3.33[/TD]
[TD]13.33[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
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