They keep cherrypicking ridiculous unproven theories, and yet they choose to ignore scientific genetic facts as you have pointed them.
Were the Croatians originally Slavic?
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They keep cherrypicking ridiculous unproven theories, and yet they choose to ignore scientific genetic facts as you have pointed them.hrvat22
Regular Member
I am realistic.. part of Croats are and Albanian origin .. part of E1b in Croatia came with Vlach while part may be an Illyrian origin...but both are today's Albanians..
There is also Croatian haplotypes in Albanians..especially around Montenegro where they mixed....
I do not know much about Albanian E1b haplotypes but I am convinced that in our region majority E1b V13 are Albanian origin...
hrvat22
Regular Member
I know the origin of Serbian name, but I was too embarrassed to say ...
Yes. I agree. So far Y-DNA is pointing to this direction. I think in the near future we will know much more conclusively with more people being tested and also with ancient DNA samples.
hrvat22
Regular Member
http://www.srpsko-nasledje.rs/sr-l/1998/10/article-1.html
google translate ..
When you examine the origin Šumadia(central Serbia) population, we see that among them there are very few natives people. In Sumadija areas: Kačer, Georgia, Lepenica, Kragujevac Jasenica Smederevo Danube region and Jasenica Kosmaju in villages near Belgrade examined the origin of the genus 8894 with 52,475 houses. Of this number, only 464 species with 3603 home natives, so almost has a population of unknown origin (470 genera with 2464 houses), and the rest of Sumadija population is migrant and immigrant families of a 7960 with 46,408 houses. Sumadiju settled immigrants from almost all parts of our kingdom today, but it has most of the local currency area, the Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, of Sjenica and Novi Pazar, in Kolasin, from Pester and Bihor, from Dalmatia, Lika and other parts of the Dinaric. In a small number of them have to do with Kosovo, Metohija and other parts of South Slavic.
Chronicle of the Priest of Dioclea 1298-1300
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Croatia
Describing Red Croatia, Dukljanin says, that there found these cities: Kotor, Budva, Bar, Ulcinj, Shkodra, Trebinje, Pilot, etc., And also in this area: Hum, Trebinje, Podgorje and Zeta
Shkodër (definiteAlbanian form: Shkodra, for other names see theetymology section), also called Skadar is a city and municipality in northwestern Albania
Trebinje (Serbian Cyrillic:Требиње) is the southernmost municipality and city in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Located inEast Herzegovina, it is part of the Republika Srpska
Ulcinj (Serbian Cyrillic: Улцињ,pronounced [ǔlt͡siɲ]) orUlqin (In Albanian,pronounced [ult͡ɕin])) is the southernmost town in Montenegro.
The Principality of Zeta was a medieval state ruled by the families of Balšić, Lazarević,Branković and Crnojević in succession from the second half of the 14th century until the Ottoman vassalage in 1514. The Serbian crown land of Zeta had become virtually independent during the fall of the Serbian Empire
Budva (Montenegrin: Будва, Budva,pronounced [bûːdv̞a] or[bûdv̞a], Italian andAlbanian: Budua) is aMontenegrin town on the Adriatic Sea.
list of the Bosnian army before the battle of Mohács
http://www.scribd.com/doc/132776360...anske-vojske-pred-bitku-na-Mohaču-1526-godine
Half of the Bosnian army are Croats whic exist in the Drina valley along the Serbian border, in Sandzak in southern Serbia and in Montenegro ... Serbs on this list do not exist ..
Evliya Çelebi (Çelebi), the famous Turkish traveler XVII. Paragraphs,( 1660 and 1661)
Near the town Foča on the Drina River (along the Serbian border), in the old town Prača, it (Çelebi)
"They gave him 50 Croatian young men under arms for companions".
On Gatačko polje (field in eastern Herzegovina along the Serbian border) "gets 300 Croatian gazija (heroes)". Attribute gazija (hero) could be given only to Muslims ...
Foča (Serbian Cyrillic:Фоча) is a town and a municipality in Bosnia and Herzegovina on the Drinariver, in the Republika Srpska entity. Previously it was called Srbinje
Ottoman Turkish historian Aali (1542nd-1599th), a native of Gallipoli
As for the tribe of Croats, who is attributed to the Bosna River, their importance is reflected in the happy disposition; They are known in Bosnia and at the current river be called.
Niketas choniates (Gr. Νικήτας ὁ Χωνιάτης, around 1155-1217), also known as Nikita Akominat
..- speaking of Stefan Nemanja(ruler of Raska) and his activities between 1160 and 1173. Whatever., says of him: "Not knowing the right measure, began to conquer Croatia and himself seizing control of Kotor"
Kotor (Serbian Cyrillic:Котор, pronounced [kɔ̌tɔr];Italian: Cattaro) is a coastal town inMontenegro.
etc..etc..etc..
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hrvat22
Regular Member
I think that both J2 and R1b in our area are Albanian origin or Vlach, Arbanas...at least most of them...
For Croats it is about 24% of the population with E1b, for the Serbs is about 35% of the population..
Needs to see all these haplotypes and their movements ... in Croats is possible that they brought part of R1b from the West, so in the future we will know more...
How can you mix chronicle of priest of Dioclea and Andministrando de imperio when the first never mention any Slavic migration and consider them natives,while others does tell us migration of Serbs and Croats,but none mentioned Albanians nearby,your idea betrayed you,i think you find someone with who you can share opinion,legacy of whom Pavelic?
enjoy your talk.hrvat22
Regular Member
How can you mix chronicle of priest of Dioclea and Andministrando de imperio when the first never mention any Slavic migration and consider them natives,while others does tell us migration of Serbs and Croats,i think you find someone with who you can share opinion,legacy of whom Pavelic?
Porphyrogenitus says that Serbs come from Bojka to a small village in Greece and from there they settling a half Balkans. That is not physically possible..
The genes of today's inhabitants our area do not confirm Porphyrogenitus story of Serbs and their arrival in the Balkans because there is no haplotype wich is coming from Lusatian Serbia or eastern Germany to Greek and from Greek into eastern Dalmatia ..For that reason, or the original Serbs extinct or were created from Croats and other..This is logic..
hrvat22
Regular Member
Large number of Croats and Vlahs in the Turkish time converted to Islam and Orthodoxy and later became Serbs and Bosnians but haplotypes remain same or White Croatian and Albanian origin..
Part of Croats became Serbs after coming to this area when they fell under Byzantine influence and later Serbian influence...but most of them became Serbs after departure of Turks from Balkans when Orthodox Croats and Vlahs become Serbs...
And then as Serbs (or rather as Orthodox because many did not know the term Serbia) they move to Serbia and Vojvodina, but they still have White Croatian or Croatian haplotype origin and Albanian or Vlach..
Ike
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Are you claiming that Orthodox church, which was crumbling down under Ottomans ( even on the territories which were Serbian before the Muslim the invasion), had the power to convert Catholics in Bosnia and Croatia? If they couldn't do it while Serbia was free and powerful European empire in 14th century, how was that possible under Ottoman terror?!
Vlachs maybe, but how did Croats become Orthodox? Turks let Orthodox priests run around and convert people into Orthodoxity? Did they build orthodox churches while doing it? Give us some examples of Orthodox Croats before they "became Serbs".
As I told you, the migrations went other way. Serbs and other Christians fled to Bosnia and Dinaric mountains, while Croatians run towards Zagorje, Austro-Hungary, Venice ...
hrvat22
Regular Member
Serbs fought for Turks and it is logical that Orthodox Church has retained a part of their privileges...
Turkey main enemies are Catholicis and Western Europe with which they are in conflict, not with allies Serbs...That is why Croats converted to Islam and Orthodox Christianity or fleeing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nicopolis
How Serbs remained Orthodox?
Pećka patrijaršija
During the Ottoman rule had enormous significance for the preservation of religious autonomy and Orthodox identity.
https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pećka_patrijaršija
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchate_of_Peć
Village in Croatia and Dalmatia .... same customs, same songs, same language, same dance, the same instrument, half village are Catholic Croats half are Orthodox Serbs ... and such examples there are hundreds of villages .
Departure people hundred years ago to America ... the vast majority of people from Croatia and Bosnia with Serbian Orthodox names stated that they Croats under race..
Croatian reporter from eastern Herzegovina populated by Serbs...
He says this....
Popovo polje( filed ) eastern Herzegovina, when Orthodox Church arrived in the 14th century offered peasants the land if they switch to Orthodoxy, all seselj family refusedand and leave for Croatia , except one....These Seselj family who accepted Orthodoxy and remains in eastern Herzegovina have descendant today in Serbia and he is called Vojislav Seselj, an ultra nationalist and proponent of Greater Serbia...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrapH2_IdXI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vojislav_Šešelj
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Ike
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Do you even listen to yourself? You're saying that Croats converted into Orthodox faith in fear of Muslims? How does that help?
Battle of Nicopoli and has nothing to do with conversion. Serbian prince was not an ally, but a Turkish vassal and had to support him in that battle. Long after that Serbia fell under Ottoman rule, then Bosnia, then Croatia. That was 100-200 years after battle of Nicopolis. If there was any conversion, it happened in those times. And in those times, Serbs, Bosnians and Croatians were the same in the eyes of Ottomans. None of them was their ally.
Did you hear that Ottomans let people stay Christian if they pay extra tribute called harac?
Read your own links:
"... 1577. godine Mehmed-paša Sokolović, veliki vezir (premijer) Osmanlijskog carstva poreklom iz pravoslavne hercegovačke porodice, je ponovo ustanovio Pećku patrijaršiju..."
".. In 1577, Mehmed Pasha Sokolovic, the Grand Vizier (Prime Minister) of the Ottoman Empire originally from Orthodox Herzegovina families, reestablished the Pec Patriarchate ..."
Really? They arrived with the land and offered it from their trucks?
Maybe plausible for the borderland and Popovo Polje, but how is there then so many Orthodox people in the western parts of Yugoslavia? Serbian Orthodox church had no influence in those parts of Ottoman empire. It was way out of their realm even in the time Slavs were free.
http://i.imgur.com/NQ80o5u.jpg
hrvat22
Regular Member
All or most of Vlachs in the territory of Bosnia and Croatia are Orthodox and someone had to take care of them and Serbs too, that is Serbian Orthodox Church.. Parts of Croats converted to Orthodox Christianity but most to Islam..
It is proof that Serbian Orthodox Church functioned in Turkish empire, especially in Bosnia and Serbia and neighboring countries, and had support from Turks..
16th and 17th centuries
Half of the Bosnian army are Croats whic exist in the Drina valley along the Serbian border, in Sandzak in southern Serbia and in Montenegro ... Serbs on this list do not exist ..
http://www.scribd.com/doc/132776360...anske-vojske-pred-bitku-na-Mohaču-1526-godine
Evliya Çelebi (Çelebi), the famous Turkish traveler XVII. Paragraphs,( 1660 and 1661)
Near the town Foča on the Drina River (along the Serbian border), in the old town Prača, it (Çelebi)
"They gave him 50 Croatian young men under arms for companions".
On Gatačko polje (field in eastern Herzegovina along the Serbian border) "gets 300 Croatian gazija (heroes)". Attribute gazija (hero) could be given only to Muslims ...
etc, etc...
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Ike
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Not good enough explanation. There was 44% of Serb Orthodox people, in the period when Ottomans went out of Bosnia. If those were all Croatians to start with, why would they convert into Orthodox and not Muslim faith? You think that not a part, but half of people of Bosnia converted from Catholic into Orthodox during 15-19th century? But for what reason to convert from one Christian into another Christian? They would gain nothing from converting from Catholic into Orthodox faith, and it would be a futile move. Do you believe that Catholic under ISIS would come through better if they convert into Orthodox faith?
But before it was closed for like 150 years.
The fact that the church was given a simple right to exist, didn't mean they had any actual influence. What facts do we have about the impact of Pecka Patrijarsija west of Drina valley during those couple of centuries? How many triburaties they had? What was their income? How many churches have they built?
Do you really believe that Serbian Christians who have already been burdened with extra taxes for just being Christians, had the money to support the conversion policy (even if it existed) of the Orthodox church outside of Serbia? Do you realize that they were not in the situation to even help themselves. People had no money to feed themselves or to build the church for themselves, and you're proposing Serbians had a Religious Ministry of Foreign Affairs with a budget.
There are no Serbs on this list, which is logical. Serbs usually weren't involved in the Ottoman army.
hrvat22
Regular Member
I'm not saying that all Croats converted to Orthodoxy but part, large part Orthodox Christians in Bosnia are Vlach....Haplotypes of Serbs from Bosnia say that not me...
The Patriarchate of Peć had jurisdiction to Zagreb and not to Drina river..
According to the Turkish official figures in 1528/30. in today's Bosnia and Herzegovina there were about 220,000 Muslims, or about 34%, about 360,000 Catholics, or about 57%, and Orthodox Christians, mostly non-Slavic Vlachs, about 55,000, or 9%. In 1624, in Bosnia there were 450,000 Muslims, or 67%, Catholics 150,000, or 22%, and the Orthodox, mostly Vlachs, 75,000 or 11%
Except the Turkish violence, Catholics in Bosnia were exposed to pressures of Orthodox religious leaders, and as such are a few examples. "Suspicion of allegiance of Catholics prompted the Port on new measures, and Peć patriarch gave a firman, which in Bosnia undergoing its jurisdiction Zimije. These name (zimije) was officially designated all Christian subjects of the Ottoman Empire, whether Roman or Greek ceremony..
In 1779, Metropolitan of Herzegovina tries to subdue Catholic of Trebinje, Blagaj, Mostar, Ljubuski ad Duvno; but in court he denied as well as the Bishop of Mostar, who in 1781 invited the friars of Mostar to court for the same things. "Except these examples there were previous attempts Orthodox priests to put under its control the Franciscans, Catholics ad non-believers.
Court decision in the first half of September 1567, rejecting the request of the Serbian Patriarch, royalty and Orthodox representatives from Gabela to the Franciscans ad Catholic people are paying the wedding ad the other giving.
Drinopolje, June 9, 1675. Ferman of Mehmed IV., Who at the request of Dubrovnik deputies Marina Kaboge protected Catholics of Bosnia and Herzegovina against the prosecution of the Peć patriarchy and its followers of Eastern ceremony..
Catholics in Sarajevo asking Pope Innocent XII., That over the French envoy in Constantinople obtain a firman, which would be protected against the Orthodox, who wanted to force them to submit to the authorities of Peć patriarch. "" Dubrovnik, 29 January 1693. Francis Ricciardi, a member of St. Congregation de Propaganda in Dubrovnik, recommended St. Congregation Catholics of Sarajevo in their fight with the patriarchs of Pec.
Ahmed II. orders, to Catholics in Herzegovina that have to pay Metropolitan Peć Simeon wedding and other fees.
From these few examples, it is seen which pressures were exposed Catholics in Bosnia and Herzegovina during the Ottoman rule. Some converted to Islam, some have adopted Orthodoxy because of the lack of Catholic priests, then constant pressure, blackmail ad harassment from across Drina Orthodox leaders.
The defeat of the Bosnian beglerbeg Hasan Pasha Predojevića near Sisak (Croatia). 1593, where was killed a flower Muslims of Bosnia and Herzegovina, resulting shift in the Turkish conquest of Croatian and Western Christian
countries.
Bosnia is the year 1606, had to sign a peace on the Žitva torogo in Hungary, where for the first time Croatia returned her some conquered areas.
These local people(Bosnian Muslim) knew,that Croatian Catholics are happy for the victory of Christians and their brothers free Croats, so after returning from military g. 1606 began to do great violence against local Catholics ad their pastors Franciscans..
When in 1635 Fr. Jerome Lucic-Bogoslavić ordained to the bishop, his opponents reported to Rome that his brothers Hehrem, Alija, and Pervan with their families converted to Islam and that will mix miter and turbans if Jerome to be ordained as bishop. Fr. Jerome was born in Vares central Bosnia..
Therefore his brothers converted to Islam at the earliest g. 1590, when the future Fr. Jerome had gone to school, and probably early 17 century., When other Catholics in Vares converted to Islam.
Others case was recorded in the year 1631, when he was elected leader of the Bosnian Franciscans (Minister provincialis) Fr. Martin Brguljanin from Vares. Then it was reported to the Congregation de Propaganda in Rome, that his almost all relatives converted to Islam..
That a large number of Catholic Croats in central Bosnia converted to Islam in the first two decades of the 17-century, it can be seen from the reports of the Bosnian bishop Franjo Baličević. 1600, from the report of Bishop Marijan Maravić. 1655, and bishop Nicholas Ogramić from. 1672, as well as from reports from Fr Paul Papic. 1623..
June 1, 1635 Sarajevo merchant Ante Matijevic reported to Rome, "that Turks began a violent act [the Catholics], we'll be extinct, if the Lord does not help us
Voynuks: also recruited from the local Christian population (the very term is of Slovenian origin). There are two types - those in Bulgaria, which do not concern us, and "our" Serbian. They performed military service. Cerības (of Christians), Serasker, voynuks begs and sandžakbeg (of Muslims). Since 1530 their position becomes less favorable, because they were reduced to pay taxes (harač). Gradually they crossed the civilian status, and when the 1530 abolished voynuks status in sandžak Smederevo, Krusevac and Zvornik the number of dervendžija is growing.
Voynuk' is derived from 'voynik' which in South Slavic languages means soldier
Such troops are to be found under this name throughout the Balkans — in Albania, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Herzegovina, Macedonia, Serbia and Thessaly ...
Ike
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OK then, lets review this hypothesis.
1. Which would be the Vlach haplotype?
2. What was the percentage of Vlachs and Croats in Bosnia when Ottomans entered 1459. and what was when the Austrians annexed Bosnia in 1878?
3. How many of them (Croats and Vlachs) were Orthodox before Ottomans, and how many after the Ottomans?
Patriarchate of Pec had jurisdiction beyond Bratislava. If Turks conquered Vienna, we would probably have Austria under Patriarchate of Pec.
But what baffles me is that you think Patriarch of Pec had real influence in all those areas. With what did he influence people of Western Balkans? Whom did he send there? Did he have gold, money, land, goods? What did he offer? Do you think that Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople today has any impact in Japan, Andalusia, Bratislava or even Macedonia which is next to his yard?
Exactly. In 1779, which was 15 years before the first Uprise in Serbia, when it was obvious that Ottoman's lost strength and when battle for taxpayers started among Christian churches. And right 20 km to Serbian borders. And he obviously failed. So why do you think it was possible 300 km away, in the times of Ottomans. Who converted people of Western Bosnia into Orthodox and when?
They were under pressure for sure, but all your examples show that the pressure failed, because Pope's influence in Dalmatia was much more stronger than the Patriarch of Pec, which was BTW normal to expect.
hrvat22
Regular Member
Vlach haplotype in Bosnia and Croatia would be E1b V13, possible that some are Illyrian assimilated earlier....We will know when in detail are explore mentioned haplotype and all its mutations, then we will specify the haplotypes..
Possible and types of R1b and J2, we will see in the future..
I do not know, I assume that later was much more Vlach or Serbs which is logical..
Part of Vlach was and Catholics, they are Croats today..but a lot more of them is in today's Serbs..
Serbs and Orthodox majority is not at war with Turks, the main enemies of Turks are western countries and Catholicism, among them are Croatia not Serbia..
After departure of Turks half Balkans remained Orthodox..
Piro Ilir
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So, you mean that the original Slavs of the west Balkans settled firstly in Croatia? Afterward they settled further south?
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