Were the Croatians originally Slavic?

What make you think or label,haplogroups with modern day ethnicity,the day when they arose there is no names such is Croat,Albanian etc,which in fact the origin of the very names are disputed and are from Middle Ages,Dalmatians if you read their chronicles most of them never used name such is Croat in self designation instead they did Dalmatian,illyrian,Slovinac-Slav,don't imagine communities such is white Croatia,because it will be what all Slavic speakers descend from white Croats wow, i wrote there is yet research on entire ethnogenesis,language etc..couple researchers on the Slavs even denied the migration recently or at least it was nowhere near as it was prior imagined,let alone they brought all the haplotypes with them,what was Balkans,waste land?
The population during the last time of Roman empire on west Balkans was too rare. This is what I had read, but of course nothing is 100% sure. The population generally always was too rare throughout Balkans, except some areas of the south on the shores.
 
Do you even listen to yourself? You're saying that Croats converted into Orthodox faith in fear of Muslims? How does that help?

Battle of Nicopoli and has nothing to do with conversion. Serbian prince was not an ally, but a Turkish vassal and had to support him in that battle. Long after that Serbia fell under Ottoman rule, then Bosnia, then Croatia. That was 100-200 years after battle of Nicopolis. If there was any conversion, it happened in those times. And in those times, Serbs, Bosnians and Croatians were the same in the eyes of Ottomans. None of them was their ally.



Did you hear that Ottomans let people stay Christian if they pay extra tribute called harac?




Read your own links:

"... 1577. godine Mehmed-paša Sokolović, veliki vezir (premijer) Osmanlijskog carstva poreklom iz pravoslavne hercegovačke porodice, je ponovo ustanovio Pećku patrijaršiju..."

".. In 1577, Mehmed Pasha Sokolovic, the Grand Vizier (Prime Minister) of the Ottoman Empire originally from Orthodox Herzegovina families, reestablished the Pec Patriarchate ..."




Really? They arrived with the land and offered it from their trucks?

Maybe plausible for the borderland and Popovo Polje, but how is there then so many Orthodox people in the western parts of Yugoslavia? Serbian Orthodox church had no influence in those parts of Ottoman empire. It was way out of their realm even in the time Slavs were free.

http://i.imgur.com/NQ80o5u.jpg
Scanderbeg destroyed the Serb army because they stopped him to join the Huniad for the battle against the ottomans. Serbs during the reign of scanderbeg were allies of ottomans. The wife of the sultan was the sister of the Serb lord. All this is something well-known, you like or not
 
Scanderbeg destroyed the Serb army because they stopped him to join the Huniad for the battle against the ottomans. Serbs during the reign of scanderbeg were allies of ottomans. The wife of the sultan was the sister of the Serb lord. All this is something well-known, you like or not

Already discussed in #355 and has nothing to do with the subject.
 
Vlach haplotype in Bosnia and Croatia would be E1b V13, possible that some are Illyrian assimilated earlier....We will know when in detail are explore mentioned haplotype and all its mutations, then we will specify the haplotypes..

Possible and types of R1b and J2, we will see in the future..

It currently seems that E-V13 is too old to be Vlach. It couldn't have come from central Europe where Illyrians have descended from. What hg would be Illyrians then?


I do not know, I assume that later was much more Vlach or Serbs which is logical..
Part of Vlach was and Catholics, they are Croats today..but a lot more of them is in today's Serbs..

We have whole parts of Western Bosnia and Croatia filled with Orthodox people today, and we know that there was non before Ottomans, and have no evidence of actual impact of Orthodox church in those areas. That would suggest that they settled there in the meantime... which is in accordance with some historical sources.



Serbs and Orthodox majority is not at war with Turks, the main enemies of Turks are western countries and Catholicism, among them are Croatia not Serbia..
After departure of Turks half Balkans remained Orthodox..
Well some would argue about that, but that's a whole different subject.
 
So, you mean that the original Slavs of the west Balkans settled firstly in Croatia? Afterward they settled further south?

According to Porphyrogenetus Croats come to Dalmatia and spread to Illyria and Pannonia.

Haplotypes with White Croatian mutation I-Y3548 has in Slovenia, Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro, Belarus, Ukraine, probably Albania, Slovakia and Czech Republic ...

Obviously migration of White Croats went in several directions.

It is interesting that behind our Croatian haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983 there are mutations in the Czech Republic old about two hundred years...that are Croats escaped from the Turks and today, those people probably feeling Czechs but apparently Croatian origin..

Experimental I2a tree..

Croats belong to branch I-S17250 and majority are I-Z16983 I2a1b2a1a3 A356/Z16983.


http://yfull.com/tree/I2/
 
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It currently seems that E-V13 is too old to be Vlach. It couldn't have come from central Europe where Illyrians have descended from. What hg would be Illyrians then?

I do not have specific Albanian haplotype but reading Serbian forums they are mostly identical types so when they get specific haplotypes I will contact you and I will answer...


 
I do not have specific Albanian haplotype but reading Serbian forums they are mostly identical types so when they get specific haplotypes I will contact you and I will answer...

FFS. When did Albanians become Illyrians.
 
FFS. When did Albanians become Illyrians.

Far as I know E1b V13 is candidate for Illyrians because it is in Balkans at time of the Illyrians, when Illyrians became Albanians is question for historians.
 
Far as I know E1b V13 is candidate for Illyrians because it is in Balkans at time of the Illyrians, when Illyrians became Albanians is question for historians.

E-V13 is a very minor part of illyrians ...less than 10%...................how can you claim anything with less than 10% ?

Vudecol culture is know as proto-illyrian culture and it is in modern Bosnia and since I2a is the bulk of Bosnian people we can assume I2a has far greater chance to be Illyrian than E-v13, don't you agree?
 
Far as I know E1b V13 is candidate for Illyrians because it is in Balkans at time of the Illyrians, when Illyrians became Albanians is question for historians.

But as far as we know Illyrians were probably not in Balkan in times of E-V13. Why do you think that Illyrians who came down to Balkan were also E-V13?
If they were E-V13 and not related to Greeks (as we know from Greek writings), how come we have so much E-V13 in southern Balkan? What happened so that whole Illyrian tribes moved from Dinaric mountains towards Bulgaria, Greece and Crete?

We still don't know who Illyrians were for sure, so guessing about their connection with any of today's nationalities or ethnicities seems futile. Maybe Albanians were here before the Illyrians, maybe they were Illyrians, maybe they came here after Illyrians perished, etc. No point in involving Albanians in this discussion.
 
Far as I know E1b V13 is candidate for Illyrians because it is in Balkans at time of the Illyrians, when Illyrians became Albanians is question for historians.

E-V13 is still a strange story in Balkans,

if we connect with the research of Italians searches,
then is palaiolithic/neolithic >7ky and its primary spot is modern central-west Bulgaria, (combination of E-v13 +PC1)

if we connect it with migrations from levant and minor Asia then is surely shorter than <4ky in Balkans and expand from Greece

we can not connect V-13 with IE,
meaning that true GREEKS THRACIANS ILLYRIANS had no V-13,
but either lived together, either they accept it later,

WE CAN NOT CONNECT ANY IE POPULATIONS WITH E-V13
meaning that E-V13 existed in Balkans before IE arrival,
or E-V13 came at late bronze age, (could be combined with tin bronze)
so E-V13 has nothing to do with proto-Thracians, proto-Greeks, Proto-Illyrians etc
but is a mark of Balkans and around generally,

E-v13 is not a mark of Albanians, neither a mark of Greeks, neither a mark of Bulgarians, neither a mark of Serbs,
all these found V-13 when they came, or accept it when it came,
 
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E-V13 is a very minor part of illyrians ...less than 10%...................how can you claim anything with less than 10% ?

Vudecol culture is know as proto-illyrian culture and it is in modern Bosnia and since I2a is the bulk of Bosnian people we can assume I2a has far greater chance to be Illyrian than E-v13, don't you agree?


Where is that I2a Illyrian today in the Balkans?

Illyrians are mixed tribes and probably mixed haplotypes ...

Each haplotype, which is autochthon in territory of Albania, Bosnia, Croatia etc...in the former territory of the Illyrian tribes...may be a candidate..

J2, E1b, R1b...possible R1a and I2a...when it is confirmed, we will be smarter..
 
But as far as we know Illyrians were probably not in Balkan in times of E-V13. Why do you think that Illyrians who came down to Balkan were also E-V13?
If they were E-V13 and not related to Greeks (as we know from Greek writings), how come we have so much E-V13 in southern Balkan? What happened so that whole Illyrian tribes moved from Dinaric mountains towards Bulgaria, Greece and Crete?

We still don't know who Illyrians were for sure, so guessing about their connection with any of today's nationalities or ethnicities seems futile. Maybe Albanians were here before the Illyrians, maybe they were Illyrians, maybe they came here after Illyrians perished, etc. No point in involving Albanians in this discussion.

Perhaps they were chased by Slavs
 
E-V13 is still a strange story in Balkans,

if we connect with the research of Italians searches,
then is palaiolithic/neolithic >7ky and its primary spot is modern central-west Bulgaria, (combination of E-v13 +PC1)

if we connect it with migrations from levant and minor Asia then is surely shorter than <4ky in Balkans and expand from Greece

we can not connect V-13 with IE,
meaning that true GREEKS THRACIANS ILLYRIANS had no V-13,
but either lived together, either they accept it later,

WE CAN NOT CONNECT ANY IE POPULATIONS WITH E-V13
meaning that E-V13 existed in Balkans before IE arrival,
or E-V13 came at late bronze age, (could be combined with tin bronze)
so E-V13 has nothing to do with proto-Thracians, proto-Greeks, Proto-Illyrians etc
but is a mark of Balkans and around generally,

E-v13 is not a mark of Albanians, neither a mark of Greeks, neither a mark of Bulgarians, neither a mark of Serbs,
all these found V-13 when they came, or accept it when it came,



Finally, conclusion of their administrator (Bulgarian dna) is that J2b1 has nothing to do with Greeks. Today's Greeks, according to him, is very questionable category. A good part of Northern Greece is Slovenian (Slavs) and Albanian origin. Upon the arrival of Turks "real Greeks" emigrating to Italy and other countrys. Their place "filled" are mostly people of Albanian origin, then the Greeks from Western Anatolia (later), etc ..

Similar reasoning have admin of our Serbian DNA project (this seems to be a universal opinion of the administrator)


This is comment from Serbian genetic forum, I do not know all types of haplotypes but Bulgarian and Serbian administrator know, if they come to the same conclusion it may be true what they saying.. ..

I cant confirm whether is this true or not but that's what they think..
 
This is comment from Serbian genetic forum, I do not know all types of haplotypes but Bulgarian and Serbian administrator know, if they come to the same conclusion it may be true what they saying.. ..

I cant confirm whether is this true or not but that's what they think..
Serbian genetic forum "poreklo" they does that in order to test and attract people to collect money,people are more interested in things like those,you are "Illyrian" oh no you are "Serb" Slav,A Croat,no you are Thracian,maybe Vlach? something like Igenea did,in my opinion you can't connect haplogroups to any present day ethnicities,as i said the day they arose none of modern ethnicities existed,we can only say which haplogroups were the most frequent let's say in Slavic ethnogenesis..
 
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Where is that I2a Illyrian today in the Balkans?

Illyrians are mixed tribes and probably mixed haplotypes ...

Each haplotype, which is autochthon in territory of Albania, Bosnia, Croatia etc...in the former territory of the Illyrian tribes...may be a candidate..

J2, E1b, R1b...possible R1a and I2a...when it is confirmed, we will be smarter..

since at this present time ( today ) Harvard univ. is genotyping the R1b found of the Vudecol culture, which is proto-illyrian culture , we can safely say that whatever branch this R1b is , it will be known as an illyrian marker.
 
In the end, what is the decision onto the Croats. What were them? Were them Slavic or not? Who are more Slavic, Serbs Croats, montenegrins, bosniaks or slovenes?
 
Who converted people of Western Bosnia into Orthodox and when?

Do you know the history of the Bosnian bogomils?

Since the late 12th century, Bosnia was a stronghold of bogomils. These were dualist Christians who held a faith similar to the French cathars, they believed all material things were created by the devil, who also created the world, and trapped human souls which belong to God into bodies of his creation. Their belief was similar to the earlier gnostic christians, the Armenian paulicians (who settled in Thrace and spread the religion from there all over Europe) and the manicheans. Even the Church of Bosnia, originally catholic, became a bogomil (also known as patarene) institution. They believed themselves to be the original christians and called themselved krstjani. They refuted the cross, baptism, marriage, the eucharist and church hierarchy. They only knew credentes, believers, who were free to live as they wanted as long as they did not harm others, and perfecti, who lead a very ascetic life as to invite the Holy Spirit in them. Most believers only became perfects on their death-bed.

Until the Ottomans came, the heretic Bosnians were ruthlessly persecuted by the Roman Catholic Church. In fact, the RCC found the Inquisition to root out this type of heresy, in which they succeeded in France with the cathars. Catholic Hungary had been attacking Bosnia for the last couple of centuries, and as a result, being catholic did not make you very popular in Bosnia. The bogomils had invited the Turks to protect them from this persecution.

The Bosnian muslims are for the most part direct descendants of these bogomil heretics, who converted to islam over a period of 200 years. The Ottomans brought previously unseen prosperity to Bosnia, cities were founded and the economy was flourishing. They initially forced the Bosnian noblemen, all bogomils, to convert to islam if they wanted to keep their possessions, and their sons were taken to Turkey and returned as jannissaries, but the other classes were left at peace.

Also, from the Ottoman administration we see that the heretic christians were treated favorably by the Ottomans, who called them kristians (while Orthodox and Catholic christians were called kuffar). In the early 17th century the term kristian disappears, and Bosnia is predominantly muslim (around that time another heresy appears, islamic in name this time, but similar to bogomilism, but is destroyed by the Ottomans very fast).

We can assume that not every christian heretic was very happy with the advent of islam (even if sufism was the most popular, again a heterodox branch of religion), and it is known that a minor part of the bogomils converted to Orthodox christianity.
 
Do you know the history of the Bosnian bogomils?

Since the late 12th century, Bosnia was a stronghold of bogomils. These were dualist Christians who held a faith similar to the French cathars, they believed all material things were created by the devil, who also created the world, and trapped human souls which belong to God into bodies of his creation. Their belief was similar to the earlier gnostic christians, the Armenian paulicians (who settled in Thrace and spread the religion from there all over Europe) and the manicheans. Even the Church of Bosnia, originally catholic, became a bogomil (also known as patarene) institution. They believed themselves to be the original christians and called themselved krstjani. They refuted the cross, baptism, marriage, the eucharist and church hierarchy. They only knew credentes, believers, who were free to live as they wanted as long as they did not harm others, and perfecti, who lead a very ascetic life as to invite the Holy Spirit in them. Most believers only became perfects on their death-bed.

Until the Ottomans came, the heretic Bosnians were ruthlessly persecuted by the Roman Catholic Church. In fact, the RCC found the Inquisition to root out this type of heresy, in which they succeeded in France with the cathars. Catholic Hungary had been attacking Bosnia for the last couple of centuries, and as a result, being catholic did not make you very popular in Bosnia. The bogomils had invited the Turks to protect them from this persecution.

The Bosnian muslims are for the most part direct descendants of these bogomil heretics, who converted to islam over a period of 200 years. The Ottomans brought previously unseen prosperity to Bosnia, cities were founded and the economy was flourishing. They initially forced the Bosnian noblemen, all bogomils, to convert to islam if they wanted to keep their possessions, and their sons were taken to Turkey and returned as jannissaries, but the other classes were left at peace.

Also, from the Ottoman administration we see that the heretic christians were treated favorably by the Ottomans, who called them kristians (while Orthodox and Catholic christians were called kuffar). In the early 17th century the term kristian disappears, and Bosnia is predominantly muslim (around that time another heresy appears, islamic in name this time, but similar to bogomilism, but is destroyed by the Ottomans very fast).

We can assume that not every christian heretic was very happy with the advent of islam (even if sufism was the most popular, again a heterodox branch of religion), and it is known that a minor part of the bogomils converted to Orthodox christianity.

The issue of the Bosnian Bogomil theory is that it is heavily disputed by historians such as Noel Malcom (Bosnia: A Short History) and John V.A Fine, due to the fact that no evidence can be found in the original documents of the Bosnian Christians. Importantly the Bosnian Church split form the Catholic Church due to opposing Hungary and not submitting to their demands. It’s reasonable to suggest that mostly Catholics converted to the Bosnian Church as Bosnia was ruled by the Catholic Church and was predominately Catholic at the time. Critically are you also suggesting that the Bogomils are predominately of I2a Din origin?
 
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